The 10 million dollar mistake?

[bluegreen]

Now the story is "we sgowed him photos, and he said "his name is Maher Arar", and I saw him twice in Afghanistan, in September and October 2001".

Convenient story, except that it appears that he did not immediately identify Arar. Especially interesting is the fact that Arar was, at that time, under surveillance by the RCMP in CANADA. While I believe the handling of the whole thing by the RCMP was abysmal, I have a hard time believing that they would not have noticed Arar travelling out of the country. Or, if they did, that both the O'Connor Commission and Stockwell Day didn't catch that one in all the documentation they saw.

The allegation that Arar was seen in the Al Qaida Safe house has been pretty thoroughly exploded. I listened to Arar'a Lawyer on CBC radio an hour ago, and he pointed out that Stockwell Day had access to RCMP surveillance intelligence at the time that he was informed of this so called identification of Arar. Day was aware that Arar was under Surveillance in North America during the whole time that he was presumably mis-identified as being in the Middle East. That is why he dismissed it as not credible evidence, and concurred in Arar's innocence.

This whole episode is a little freaky, because it illustrates so much that has drastically gone wrong:

A) Extracted under dubious conditions. ( Just how reliable can evidence extracted from kids, in the 'dead of night' be?)

Interpreted by inept analysts. (The 'fact' was demonstrably false)

C) Presented as truth in a court of questionable validity. ( What honest court would ever admit evidence like this, given A, and B above?)

D) This is all about a kid who was 15. Isn't that a child soldier under the law?

And just lets forget about the fact that the US, and pretty much all the world recognized the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan before the war started. The Taliban recruited a kid into their Army. Some special forces guys from the States showed up at their camp one night and started killing everybody who was in this kids unit. He was the last one standing, and may have actually thrown a grenade that killed one of the special forces unit. Call me a stupid terrorist sympathiser if you like, but doesn't this actually look like a pretty conventional battle? This has always bothered me that because he was on the other side, this turned this teenager into a terrorist. I thought terrorists snuck around in other peoples countries killing innocents?

[CANADIEN]

On top of it:

In a statement made to the O'Connor Commission, a RCMP agent who interrogated Khadr in the summer of 2002 (two-three months before his alledged identification of Arar); the agent said that he had shown Khadr a photo of Arar and that Khadr told him he had never seen the man. Also interesting is that there is confirmed information that places Maher Arar in San Diego (!) for most of September 2001, and in Ottawa for most of October 2001, the two months when Omar Khadr allegedly saw him om Afghanistan.

Edited January 21, 2009 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

The allegation that Arar was seen in the Al Qaida Safe house has been pretty thoroughly exploded. I listened to Arar'a Lawyer on CBC radio an hour ago, and he pointed out that Stockwell Day had access to RCMP surveillance intelligence at the time that he was informed of this so called identification of Arar. Day was aware that Arar was under Surveillance in North America during the whole time that he was presumably mis-identified as being in the Middle East. That is why he dismissed it as not credible evidence, and concurred in Arar's innocence.

This whole episode is a little freaky, because it illustrates so much that has drastically gone wrong:

A) Extracted under dubious conditions. ( Just how reliable can evidence extracted from kids, in the 'dead of night' be?)

Interpreted by inept analysts. (The 'fact' was demonstrably false)

C) Presented as truth in a court of questionable validity. ( What honest court would ever admit evidence like this, given A, and B above?)

D) This is all about a kid who was 15. Isn't that a child soldier under the law?

And just lets forget about the fact that the US, and pretty much all the world recognized the Taliban as the government of Afghanistan before the war started. The Taliban recruited a kid into their Army. Some special forces guys from the States showed up at their camp one night and started killing everybody who was in this kids unit. He was the last one standing, and may have actually thrown a grenade that killed one of the special forces unit. Call me a stupid terrorist sympathiser if you like, but doesn't this actually look like a pretty conventional battle? This has always bothered me that because he was on the other side, this turned this teenager into a terrorist. I thought terrorists snuck around in other peoples countries killing innocents?

Omar Khadr was not a soldier in the Afghan Army, but a member of a terrorist organisation, Al-Quaida. That his treatment since his capture and his current trial do not meet some of the fundamental principal of our justice and criminal system does not change that fact.

[M.Dancer]

I don't call killing a man during an interrogation an accident.

Dangerous job....accidents happen. If the goal is to get info and dead men tell no tales then it must have been an ooppsie....

[CANADIEN]

Being shown some photos with no names attached to them and asked if he knows any of them is hardly coerced. He was merely asked.

After three months of relentless interrogation, using tehcniques that are designed to break the resistence of the interrogated person, with no access to any form of legal representation, there is no such thing as "just asking". The conditions of Khadr's interrogation makes most everything he said to his captor suspect. Especially when it contradicts evidence.

[punked]

Dangerous job....accidents happen. If the goal is to get info and dead men tell no tales then it must have been an ooppsie....

The findings of Mr. Dilawar's autopsy were succinct.[3] A death certificate for Dilawar, aged 22, from Yakubi in eastern Afghanistan, and signed by Major Elizabeth Rouse, pathologist with the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology in Washington DC, states that the cause of death was "blunt-force injuries to lower extremities complicating coronary artery disease".[4]

It was was found that at the time of Dilawar's death, the injured muscles in his legs had become "pulpified."

According to the death certificate shown in the documentary Taxi to the Dark Side, the box marked Homicide had been checked as the ultimate cause of death. Despite this, the military publicly claimed that Dilawar had died from natural causes.

[M.Dancer]

The findings of Mr. Dilawar's autopsy were succinct.[3] A death certificate for Dilawar, aged 22, from Yakubi in eastern Afghanistan, and signed by Major Elizabeth Rouse, pathologist with the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology in Washington DC, states that the cause of death was "blunt-force injuries to lower extremities complicating coronary artery disease".[4]

It was was found that at the time of Dilawar's death, the injured muscles in his legs had become "pulpified."

According to the death certificate shown in the documentary Taxi to the Dark Side, the box marked Homicide had been checked as the ultimate cause of death. Despite this, the military publicly claimed that Dilawar had died from natural causes.

That's what happens when you don't eat right. coronary artery disease.

[CANADIEN]

That's what happens when you don't eat right. coronary artery disease.

Nice to see that you can take lightly the killing of an innocent man.

Edited January 21, 2009 by CANADIEN

[bluegreen]

Omar Khadr was not a soldier in the Afghan Army, but a member of a terrorist organisation, Al-Quaida. That his treatment since his capture and his current trial do not meet some of the fundamental principal of our justice and criminal system does not change that fact.

Fair enough, but then the Afghan Army could not have been said to exist at any time since the Soviet puppet regime. I used the term loosely. The fact is, that he was fighting under the aegis of what had, until shortly before his capture been the duly recognized Afghan government, whether Al-Qaida, or Taliban. If you remember recent history, it was the interrelationship between the Taliban, and Al Qaida that brought about the destruction of the Taliban regime. Would you not say it is valid to state that he would have been acknowledged a soldier in the war then taking place? In my mind there exists a distinction between those fighting in open war, and those who kill innocents by stealth. Maybe Khadr would have been a terrorist, who are we to know? We have to judge him by what he did, not what his peers did elsewhere, or might have wished him to do.

Irrespective of that, given his upbringing, and the circumstances into which he was thrust by his family, and his relative youth, he ought not to bear full adult responsibility for his actions. The precise events surrounding his capture make accusations of murder a little outlandish at best. Open battle was joined, between American forces in a foreign land, and the closest thing that foreign land had to armed forces. The weaker force was wiped out, with the exception of one child soldier.

I am not thrilled by the roles of Al qaida, or the Taliban, but the legal fiction that was crafted by the Americans, and the subsequent 7 years in legal limbo was an outcome that I find extremely troubling. I'm sure that the Americans put some pretty bad people into Guantanamo, but reason revolts against what has been done in Khadr's case.

[CANADIEN]

delete

Edited January 21, 2009 by CANADIEN

[Topaz]

Over a year ago, the US said they were going to close the Cuban prison and ship all prison to Bagram, Afg. were reported torture has been going on and since its far away from the media, its not reported as much.

[Mr.Canada]

Nice to see that you can take lightly the killing of an innocent man.

A member of a terrorist group who kills people for their own groups dogma is hardly an innocent man. Give me a break. You socialists are absolutely spineless. If a group were to attack Canada like 9-11 and we caught them you'd be more interested in whether or not they get pampered than in justice. Makes me sick.

These people are murderers and we need info they have as a matter of national security. Perhaps you'd put a terrorist group ahead of your country and the citizens safety but not everyone shares your views, Thank God.

[punked]

A member of a terrorist group who kills people for their own groups dogma is hardly an innocent man. Give me a break. You socialists are absolutely spineless. If a group were to attack Canada like 9-11 and we caught them you'd be more interested in whether or not they get pampered than in justice. Makes me sick.

These people are murderers and we need info they have as a matter of national security. Perhaps you'd put a terrorist group ahead of your country and the citizens safety but not everyone shares your views, Thank God.

What did Mr. Dilawar do Mr Canada? What made him a terrorist. People who defend killing people becuase they are brown make me sick. You are sick. WHAT DID MR DILAWAR DO?

[M.Dancer]

What did Mr. Dilawar do Mr Canada? What made him a terrorist. People who defend killing people becuase they are brown make me sick. You are sick. WHAT DID MR DILAWAR DO?

I wasn't aware he was brown. Why does colour matter?

[Canadian Blue]

In all this commotion, I feel that one question has to be asked and must be answered. Can any supporter of Arar here possibly state he should have still received $10 million dollars if it was very possible that he had terrorist connections.

[punked]

I wasn't aware he was brown. Why does colour matter?

Yah ok try to change the subject. What did he do?

Ps Obama just stopped the Khadr trial welcome to the new left.

Edited January 21, 2009 by punked

[M.Dancer]

Ps Obama just stopped the Khadr welcome to the new left.

Did you transliterate that from Urdu?

[punked]

In all this commotion, I feel that one question has to be asked and must be answered. Can any supporter of Arar here possibly state he should have still received $10 million dollars if it was very possible that he had terrorist connections.

Prove it. Prove his connections. PS a kid who was shown Arar's picture months before picking out his picture under duress and saying he saw him in Afghanistan when it is known he was in the US and Canada is what you have to stand on. Yah I don't believe it and no one in their right mind would. Just becuase you want it to be true does not make it so.

[jdobbin]

In all this commotion, I feel that one question has to be asked and must be answered. Can any supporter of Arar here possibly state he should have still received $10 million dollars if it was very possible that he had terrorist connections.

Given that Arar couldn't be in two places at the same time, I suspect that the RCMP trumped Khadr.

[punked]

Did you transliterate that from Urdu?

Did you avoid the subject again? What did he do?

[Canadian Blue]

PS a kid who was shown Arar's picture months before picking out his picture under duress and saying he saw him in Afghanistan when it is known he was in the US and Canada is what you have to stand on.

Yeah, a kid who was able to point out Arar by name. Perhaps left wingers like yourself shouldn't be so quick to jump to the defence of possible terrorists. Didn't you guys already shoot yourselves in the foot when Jean Chretien went to bat for the Khadrs in the late 90's?

[capricorn]

PS a kid who was shown Arar's picture months before picking out his picture under duress and saying he saw him in Afghanistan when it is known he was in the US and Canada is what you have to stand on. Yah I don't believe it and no one in their right mind would. Just becuase you want it to be true does not make it so.

The date Khadr stated may be inaccurate. He was probably disoriented at that point and it is possible his memory for dates was fuzzy. If he fingered Arar without prompting, there's something to it.

[punked]

Yeah, a kid who was able to point out Arar by name. Perhaps left wingers like yourself shouldn't be so quick to jump to the defence of possible terrorists. Didn't you guys already shoot yourselves in the foot when Jean Chretien went to bat for the Khadrs in the late 90's?

No he NEVER named him. You are a lair who does not read the news. He said Arar "looked familiar." Then they went on to lead the questioning to get what they wanted.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Khadr+Ar...7989/story.html

Perhaps if the right wingers were not ready to lie at the drop of a hat you could be taken seriously.

[punked]

The date Khadr stated may be inaccurate. He was probably disoriented at that point and it is possible his memory for dates was fuzzy. If he fingered Arar without prompting, there's something to it.

OR OR it was all made up. I say this becuase our own Canadian investigation showed Arar was never in Afghanistan. The Cons already tried to prove this guys I don`t know why you are clinging to straws.

[Canadian Blue]

The date Khadr stated may be inaccurate. He was probably disoriented at that point and it is possible his memory for dates was fuzzy. If he fingered Arar without prompting, there's something to it.

Capricorn, don't you realize that Omar Khadr is a Canadian citizen who just happened to attempt to kill coalition troops in Afghanistan. Some country's would call that treason, unfortunately many Canadian's seem to think he's a great citizen.