Online voting increases voter turnout minimum 30%

[benny]

Please read this article it is very informative on security with the internet.

http://www.canadian-alternative.com/Intern...urity_scare.pdf

Here is what this article is saying about vote buying and selling :

-If a voter received a detailed receipt, whether on paper or by e-mail, indicating how he or she voted, such misconduct as large scale vote buying and selling, as well as voter coercion, would be possible.

-Another type of auditing mechanism was the online voting confirmation list. When a voter sends his or her vote to SERVE, he or she would receive a “thank you” window with a voter confirmation number. Of course, for privacy the confirmation list would not show either the name of the voter or how he or she voted.

-For example, in a vote buying and selling scheme, the seller of his vote could allow the spyware to be installed in his computer so that the buyer could confirm that the seller had voted as agreed. Or, in a coercion case, the victim could be forced to allow the spyware so that the coercer could verify that the victim had complied. In theory, all of these things could be done on a large scale.

-Digital signatures were incorporated to combat voter fraud, and controls were used to guard against vote buying and coercion.

-Finally, as I have mentioned, included in the original SERVE plan is a means by which each voter can verify that his or her vote has been counted. After being assigned a confirmation number the voter can go to the special web page and see if his or her confirmation number appears. If it does, the voter will have that assurance that his or her vote has been counted. Of course, the vote itself will not be shown, as that could be used for nefarious purposes, such as buying and selling, or confirming compliance with a coercer.

[CAMP]

Here is what this article is saying about vote buying and selling :

-If a voter received a detailed receipt, whether on paper or by e-mail, indicating how he or she voted, such misconduct as large scale vote buying and selling, as well as voter coercion, would be possible.

-Another type of auditing mechanism was the online voting confirmation list. When a voter sends his or her vote to SERVE, he or she would receive a “thank you” window with a voter confirmation number. Of course, for privacy the confirmation list would not show either the name of the voter or how he or she voted.

-For example, in a vote buying and selling scheme, the seller of his vote could allow the spyware to be installed in his computer so that the buyer could confirm that the seller had voted as agreed. Or, in a coercion case, the victim could be forced to allow the spyware so that the coercer could verify that the victim had complied. In theory, all of these things could be done on a large scale.

-Digital signatures were incorporated to combat voter fraud, and controls were used to guard against vote buying and coercion.

-Finally, as I have mentioned, included in the original SERVE plan is a means by which each voter can verify that his or her vote has been counted. After being assigned a confirmation number the voter can go to the special web page and see if his or her confirmation number appears. If it does, the voter will have that assurance that his or her vote has been counted. Of course, the vote itself will not be shown, as that could be used for nefarious purposes, such as buying and selling, or confirming compliance with a coercer.

Also mentioned in this article is that online voting is always a work in progress to continue improving the safety and security of it. Online banking is proof that a system can be set up and continually improved. Most of the security breaches that have happend on the internet have been human errors and not the technology.

[benny]

Also mentioned in this article is that online voting is always a work in progress to continue improving the safety and security of it. Online banking is proof that a system can be set up and continually improved. Most of the security breaches that have happend on the internet have been human errors and not the technology.

If we can find a way to prevent vote selling and buying, I see no other major obstacle in adopting online voting.

[Michael Hardner]

Martin Chriton stated some obvious problems, which I don't think were adequately addressed by CAMP.

My question, though, is 'why' ? Why do we need to change our system ?

I don't accept that declining voter turnout is necessarily a bad thing, or a problem that needs to be addressed by spoonfeeding people to the point where you put the voting booth in their living rooms.

In 1957, black voters in Mississippi had to go through an extensive registration process in order to vote in the southern states, and they did so. That is a valuable voter - someone who understands the importance of democracy.

If somebody can't take 10 minutes to go to a polling station, I don't think they're concerned enough to participate, i.e. to take the time inform themselves on the issues. I don't want McDonalds voters deciding who runs the country, I want people who take democracy seriously.

[CAMP]

If we can find a way to prevent vote selling and buying, I see no other major obstacle in adopting online voting.

I have checked with Dean Smith of Intelivote and have been assured that voter anonymity is ensured.

[benny]

I have checked with Dean Smith of Intelivote and have been assured that voter anonymity is ensured.

I will call this company about spywares.

[Topaz]

The problems in the US was the software creators were best friend of the Bush family and I'm sure people have heard the story of that owner saying at a party in Ohio, that He would make sure Bush won. Cheney himself, said they would win and by how much. In some polling stations I read the computers had 17,000 voters on before the polls opened.There alot more fraud stories out there and I don't think Canadians will be ready until they REALLY feel secure. Besides, putting in the computer will put some people out of part time work. You could see more people NOT voting, if they think one party is trying to steal votes, leave the way it is.

[benny]

The problems in the US was the software creators were best friend of the Bush family and I'm sure people have heard the story of that owner saying at a party in Ohio, that He would make sure Bush won. Cheney himself, said they would win and by how much. In some polling stations I read the computers had 17,000 voters on before the polls opened.There alot more fraud stories out there and I don't think Canadians will be ready until they REALLY feel secure. Besides, putting in the computer will put some people out of part time work. You could see more people NOT voting, if they think one party is trying to steal votes, leave the way it is.

If the voting system with its code is public and the unemployed fairly compensated, I don't see how what you mention in your post can still pose problems.

[CAMP]

I will call this company about spywares.

Intelivote has a demo you can try on their home page that shows some of the way it works.

[CAMP]

The problems in the US was the software creators were best friend of the Bush family and I'm sure people have heard the story of that owner saying at a party in Ohio, that He would make sure Bush won. Cheney himself, said they would win and by how much. In some polling stations I read the computers had 17,000 voters on before the polls opened.There alot more fraud stories out there and I don't think Canadians will be ready until they REALLY feel secure. Besides, putting in the computer will put some people out of part time work. You could see more people NOT voting, if they think one party is trying to steal votes, leave the way it is.

Please read this article if you want a very good understanding of the security issues associated with online voting.

http://www.canadian-alternative.com/Intern...urity_scare.pdf

I still believe that walk in polling stations would still be used so I don't think there would be any people out of part time work. Besides at best these part time jobs are like what...once a year for a day or two to operate a polling station.

Online voting has many advantages not to move forward with.

[CAMP]

But it doesn't.

Well punked did I give you enough info to prove it does yet?

[Riverwind]

Online voting has many advantages not to move forward with.

I have see no credible plan for dealing with ensuring a secure sign up process and a secure process for recovering lost passwords. I have also seen no plan for ensuring that online voters don't also vote at the polls.

Until someone comes up with credible answers to the questions then online voting is a pipe dream.

[benny]

I still believe that walk in polling stations would still be used so I don't think there would be any people out of part time work. Besides at best these part time jobs are like what...once a year for a day or two to operate a polling station.

Since recruiting enough elections workers is hard, I think that a more automated electoral process could help us for the workload.

[punked]

Well punked did I give you enough info to prove it does yet?

Look to Halifax for the proof that if people don't want to vote then they wont. Online voting which was open for two weeks did nothing to lift participation it only shrank it. Their is just voter fatigue out there I feel people vote when they want change and only then.

[Sir Bandelot]

People will vote when there is somebody worth voting for, and only then.

[CAMP]

I have see no credible plan for dealing with ensuring a secure sign up process and a secure process for recovering lost passwords. I have also seen no plan for ensuring that online voters don't also vote at the polls.

Until someone comes up with credible answers to the questions then online voting is a pipe dream.

All of the issues you raised are well addressed you simply haven't checked into it.

Secure sign up is from the valid Elections Canada list. You get a pin # via snail mail that will be used for you to sign in with. (Along with your name) Pin numbers can be revalidated but of course this process creates a review of who you are and if you are who you say you are so this takes time.

Any voter can only vote once whether it's online or walk in. The online voting actually would happen up to a week before the walk in voters. Once an online vote is cast the name is struck off the official voters list and this list is then the one used by the walk in poll officials. The list will show your name with a line through it just like it would if you vote at the walk in pole and the guy takes a ruler and strokes out your name.

Believe me these Intelivote guys have it down. We checked them out very carefully because as a new party we don't want problems. The Central Party of Canada needs a system of online voting/polling to bring about the changes necessary to create a much more democratic environment in Canada as well as creating accountability of MP's.

Online voting will allow regular Canadians to have a say in what's going on with their government in between elections not just at election time. Then you and I won't be bailing out GM or sending our troops off to some crazy place without first the country having a referendum. For issues that are not as extreme we would poll the ridings and have the MP responsible to their riding as to how to vote in the House of Commons.

This is using the same system in place that we have but just with input via polling or referendums which are able to be done with electronic voting. A much more democratic system just by simple changes that enhance.

[CAMP]

Look to Halifax for the proof that if people don't want to vote then they wont. Online voting which was open for two weeks did nothing to lift participation it only shrank it. Their is just voter fatigue out there I feel people vote when they want change and only then.

I will put the response up again from Dean Smith of Intelivote please read it.

Email from Dean Smith of Intelivote:

Hi Tom;

Several things about the 2008 HRM election are worthy of note.

1. The 2008 participation was down to 36% about the same turnout as the 2000 election.

2. The 2004 election turnout was 48% because the very contentious “Sunday Shopping Plebiscite Question” was on the ballot. A very hot topic that had people going to the polls and only voting on that question; some not even bothering to vote for the mayor or councillor races.

3. In the 2008 elebefore the election dates, you could vote over 3 days (Sat-Mon) electronically. Turnout for this electronic advanced poll was almost double the 2004 advanced poll turnout, (28,709 vs 15,386). This demonstrated a desire for voters to use the convenience of the evoting solution as the dates to vote were many days before the election took place and even before a much publicized televised Mayoralty Debate was to take place.

4. There were 101,080 voters participating in the 2008 election and of these 28,709 voted electronically - 12 days before the main Election Date. (That maybe where you are getting the approximate 30% number participation that you have quoted).

5. It is important to note that in the other municipalities we conducted 2008 municipal elections in Windsor, Berwick, and Stewiacke, they allowed their voters to cast electronic ballots up to, and including, election day. In Stewiacke they doubled their voter participation to an all-time high of 71%. Berwick

ction, you could only vote electronically in the advance polls in HRM. Twelve days (12)

had a more modest increase, and Windsor has a small one even though their major race, that for mayor, was acclaimed.

In short electronic voting can and has increased voter turnout. When implemented with many of the recommendations Intelivote councils our clients on the choices available to voters increases and the turnout does as well. HRM will be holding a by-election in September to replace a councillor who won a seat in the provincial election recently. In that by-election they have decided to let the voters cast their ballots electronically in advance of the election day and on election day as well. By-elections have notoriously poor turnout, (last one here in HRM had 12% turnout), so it will be interesting to see if turnout is better with electronic voting added.

I have attached a recent document created by a US based Professor, William J. Kelleher, that is an interesting read about the issues of internet voting.

http://www.canadian-alternative.com/Intern...urity_scare.pdf

[madmax]

Just sounds like a scam company wanting to get government funds to provide electronic voting, that will do SFA for voter turnout.

Election Canada must be getting lobbied, because this turkey keeps coming back even though there is little to no interest in electronic voting.

I expect a PR campaign from the computer lobbiests and then a BIG FAT government contract...

Meanwhile people will continue to ignore politics while BIG FAT government contracts are handed out to lobbiest at the trough.

[GostHacked]

All of the issues you raised are well addressed you simply haven't checked into it.

Secure sign up is from the valid Elections Canada list. You get a pin # via snail mail that will be used for you to sign in with. (Along with your name) Pin numbers can be revalidated but of course this process creates a review of who you are and if you are who you say you are so this takes time.

Any voter can only vote once whether it's online or walk in. The online voting actually would happen up to a week before the walk in voters. Once an online vote is cast the name is struck off the official voters list and this list is then the one used by the walk in poll officials. The list will show your name with a line through it just like it would if you vote at the walk in pole and the guy takes a ruler and strokes out your name.

Believe me these Intelivote guys have it down. We checked them out very carefully because as a new party we don't want problems. The Central Party of Canada needs a system of online voting/polling to bring about the changes necessary to create a much more democratic environment in Canada as well as creating accountability of MP's.

Online voting will allow regular Canadians to have a say in what's going on with their government in between elections not just at election time. Then you and I won't be bailing out GM or sending our troops off to some crazy place without first the country having a referendum. For issues that are not as extreme we would poll the ridings and have the MP responsible to their riding as to how to vote in the House of Commons.

This is using the same system in place that we have but just with input via polling or referendums which are able to be done with electronic voting. A much more democratic system just by simple changes that enhance.

What the hell are you shilling about?

[GostHacked]

I know plenty about political issues.. and always vote.. but I would love to be able to vote online so I don't have to take that trip to the mundane polling station.

Voting happens how often? Is it more than once every 4 years (or two) that is getting to you? How often do you vote, for voting, to become a chore ??

[benny]

What the hell are you shilling about?

Using computers to compute (votes).

[Riverwind]

Secure sign up is from the valid Elections Canada list. You get a pin # via snail mail that will be used for you to sign in with. (Along with your name)

This is what is required for the mail-in ballot. Such a process is more cumbersome than going to a polling booth which undermines your claim that e-voting will be more convenient. This process will have to be repeated for each election because that is the only way to ensure that a voter wants to remain on the e-voting list and has access to a valid PIN because a large percentage of people will lose their PINs if the system allowed them to be used for more than one election.

Pin numbers can be revalidated but of course this process creates a review of who you are and if you are who you say you are so this takes time.

Which means if the election passes while they are re-indentifying themselves they lose their opportunity to vote. Again. The system offers no improvement over the mail in ballot.

Any voter can only vote once whether it's online or walk in. The online voting actually would happen up to a week before the walk in voters.

So you are saying online voters would not be allowed to wait until election day to make their decision? Mail in ballots actually offer that option.

Believe me these Intelivote guys have it down.

The system you describe would cost a lot of money to set up and offers no measuresureable improvement in convenience over the existing mail in ballot. Why should we bother? Edited July 2, 2009 by Riverwind

[benny]

This is what is required for the mail-in ballot. Such a process is more cumbersome than going to a polling booth which undermines your claim that e-voting will be more convenient. This process will have to be repeated for each election because that is the only way to ensure that a voter wants to remain on the e-voting list and has access to a valid PIN because a large percentage of people will lose their PINs if the system allowed them to be used for more than one election.

Which means if the election passes while they are re-indentifying themselves they lose their opportunity to vote. Again. The system offers no improvement over the mail in ballot.

So you are saying online voters would not be allowed to wait until election day to make their decision? Mail in ballots actually offer that option.

The system you describe would cost a lot of money to set up and offers no measuresureable improvement in convenience over the existing mail in ballot. Why should we bother?

Since we are using internet and neither in situ nor mail to speak about politics all together right here, there is no a priori reasons for wishing that our votes during elections not be done the same way as what we are doing here.

Edited July 2, 2009 by benny

[Riverwind]

Since we are using internet and not mail to speak about politics all together right here, there is no a priori reasons for wishing that our votes during elections not be done the same way as what we are doing here.

There is not requirement for security here. The requirement for security means an online process is not necessarily going to be more convenient.

[benny]

There is not requirement for security here. The requirement for security means an online process is not necessarily going to be more convenient.

What about our passwords!?