Health Care

[Ontario Loyalist]

som,ebody say 'good luck' on getting stats for wait times?

Not in Alberta

All hail the Government of Alberta! Everything it says and does is true and just!

[Michael Hardner]

som,ebody say 'good luck' on getting stats for wait times?

Not in Alberta

Actually, I'm impressed with what Alberta has done here, although it's still a little short of what would be required.

It seems that you can generate graphs back to 2007 (the service goals were set in 2005, but at least Alberta has started measuring against the benchmarks) and you can select a variety of things to measure.

The graphs could still be easier to use, but they're not bad.

And I don't see ER times measured here. For some reason, nobody wants to measure ER times.

Finally, I would like to see this measured by an independent body. It seems like we still have hospitals/ministries self-reporting.

In the end, though, Alberta has definitely taken a step in the right direction. Proponents of public healthcare should be hailing their achievements as vital to ensuring that the system continues to thrive, and should be criticizing Ontario for continuing to let the system slide with a political shrug.

[Smallc]

And I don't see ER times measured here. For some reason, nobody wants to measure ER times.

Its an ER. you're going to have peaks and valleys. I don't care where you live in the western world. If you go to an ER at night, you're going to wait...probably for hours.

[Mr.Canada]

Its an ER. you're going to have peaks and valleys. I don't care where you live in the western world. If you go to an ER at night, you're going to wait...probably for hours.

This could all be avoided with some semi-private funding to open some semi-private clinics and medical care centres. This could release the burden on the public system. The Jews do it. The Jews have two Jewish only hospitals in Toronto, well one for sure. It's on Bathurst just south of Wilson and north of Lawrence Ave. Privately funded. So if they can do it and make it work why not other people. They have their own abulence services as well, it's really quite well run and looks nice. They have the right idea I say we embrace it and use it.

Edited January 25, 2009 by Mr.Canada

[Michael Hardner]

Its an ER. you're going to have peaks and valleys. I don't care where you live in the western world. If you go to an ER at night, you're going to wait...probably for hours.

Smallc,

What is your point ?

That we shouldn't measure wait times for ERs ?

I'm a proponent of universal health care. As such, I'd like for us to collectively find mechanisms for ensuring that it thrives and prospers. The government of Alberta has taken some steps in the right direction. I think we need to applaud that and continue to move in that direction.

I don't see any alternative.

[Smallc]

Smallc,

What is your point ?

That we shouldn't measure wait times for ERs ?

No, I really don't. Unless it could be something that people can see in real time, it really wouldn't do much. Now a system that people could see in real time would be awesome. They could decide what ER to go to putting less pressure on those that are already full.

[Argus]

Its an ER. you're going to have peaks and valleys. I don't care where you live in the western world. If you go to an ER at night, you're going to wait...probably for hours.

Apparently that's not true. There is very little waiting in many European nations. It certainly isn't true of private hospitals in the US. In fact, overall, including public and private hospitals, the acerage wait time in the US appears to be around 30 minutes. Hell, it didn't even used to be true here. I can remember back about ten or twelve years having to go to the hospital at about 3 in the morning for a cut on my chin. The place was empty, no waiting. I was seen almost immediately, had x-rays without a wait, and was stitched up and out the door within thirty minutes. I went back to the hospital last year around 3 in the am in considerable pain and was told I was looking at a minimum 6 hr wait. The ER was jammed with people - waiting.

[Smallc]

And I went to the hospital in the middle of the night and got in right away. I know that some nights, I would have waited hours. It really proves nothing about wait times. The fact is that almost all western nations have a shortage of doctors and nurses. I don't care how profit based your system is, you can't always overcome that.

[Smallc]

For all the complaining we do, I find like this interesting.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/special/rom...es/numbers.html

Don't get me wrong, I want to see improvements (and I do in my province, but I want to see more). I just think we have to recognize that things aren't as broken as some thing.

Edited January 25, 2009 by Smallc

[Michael Hardner]

Smallc,

You can say that "things aren't as broken" but unless data is PUBLISHED, it's all just speculation.

No, I really don't. Unless it could be something that people can see in real time, it really wouldn't do much. Now a system that people could see in real time would be awesome. They could decide what ER to go to putting less pressure on those that are already full.

The idea isn't to give people the information so that they can view wait times at different hospitals and say "Hmmm.... let's go to the place with th 5 hour wait time...". The idea is to publish data over time so that people can hold management responsible for wait times, and maybe even demand that times go DOWN over time and not up.

Without information, then the public is left to react with "oh well, what can you do?" much as you have done.

[Smallc]

Without information, then the public is left to react with "oh well, what can you do?" much as you have done.

I haven't done that. I write the government about any problems I find. I constantly check the wait time data on the Manitoba website. I am proactive and positive about the situation.

[Mr.Canada]

This could all be avoided with some semi-private funding to open some semi-private clinics and medical care centres. This could release the burden on the public system. The Jews do it. The Jews have two Jewish only hospitals in Toronto, well one for sure. It's on Bathurst just south of Wilson and north of Lawrence Ave. Privately funded. So if they can do it and make it work why not other people. They have their own abulence services as well, it's really quite well run and looks nice. They have the right idea I say we embrace it and use it.

Providing more choice to Canadians would go a long way reducing ER, Lab and Imaging wait times. We really need to look at some new options.

[Argus]

Canada as a destination for medical services? It would seem to make sense to me. Unless the US drastically reforms their system. On the other hand, who would ever come to Canada for medical services you're not allowed to buy?

Then there is the cost to the economy of delayed medical procedures.

A study commissioned by the Canadian Medical Association in 2008 showed that the economic cost of waiting for care, based on only four of thousands of categories of illness and injury, was almost $15-billion in just one year. A StatsCan report revealed that waiting for mental health care imposed a $51-billion economic burden in just one year.

The paradox of Canadian Health Care Funding

Now if Ignatieff announced something like this was where he wanted to take the health care system I'd be willing to vote for him. So far, all we've heard from him are the standard cliche's though.

Edited January 26, 2009 by Argus

[Smallc]

We have a long way to go in many places, I have no doubt about that. Its still important to celebrate successes.

[madmax]

We have a long way to go in many places, I have no doubt about that. Its still important to celebrate successes.

Health Care systems are also judged by infant mortality rates based on deaths per 1000 births.

United States 6.30

Cuba 5.93

Canada 5.08

United Kingdom 4.93

Sweden 2.75

[guyser]

. In fact, overall, including public and private hospitals, the acerage wait time in the US appears to be around 30 minutes.

Actually about 3 .7 hours. Evidence indicates they wait pretty much the same as we do.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15487676/

Hell, it didn't even used to be true here. I can remember back about ten or twelve years having to go to the hospital at about 3 in the morning for a cut on my chin. The place was empty, no waiting. I was seen almost immediately, had x-rays without a wait, and was stitched up and out the door within thirty minutes. I went back to the hospital last year around 3 in the am in considerable pain and was told I was looking at a minimum 6 hr wait. The ER was jammed with people - waiting.

Anecdotally, the opposite.

Last year , wait time for a UTI I had, in and out in less than an hour.

As a kid,numerous visits for concussions, stitches ,broken limsb, much longer wait times.

It all depends when , for what, how bad/urgent etc.....triage is what its called.

[Argus]

Actually about 3 .7 hours. Evidence indicates they wait pretty much the same as we do.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15487676/

There were no national wait times in that article. It simply listed individual problems at individual hospitals. And none of the waits seemed long in comparison to ours. For example, a woman broke her leg and had to wait a whole hour. I went to ER with my elderly mother who had broken limbs three times over the past half dozen years, and the wait for service was 10hrs each time.

As far as I'm concerned a wait of over 20 minutes is unacceptable.

[guyser]

There were no national wait times in that article.

My apologies, I referenced the wrong article.

Avg wait is 222 mins, (3hrs 42 mins)

Hospitals in Arizona (4 hours, 57 minutes), Maryland (4 hours, 7 minutes), Utah (4 hours, 5 minutes), New York (3 hours, 58 minutes), and Florida (3 hours, 57 minutes) are among the worst, with wait times near or exceeding four hours

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15817906/

As far as I'm concerned a wait of over 20 minutes is unacceptable.

That would be nice, however I dont think it ever has or ever will be a standard. Especially witht the shortage of Drs.

[Michael Hardner]

Especially witht the shortage of Drs.

Guyser,

The government has a measure of control over the supply of doctors, though.

I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of where the shortages are, and some ideas of what could be done to address that.

[guyser]

Guyser,

The government has a measure of control over the supply of doctors, though.

I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of where the shortages are, and some ideas of what could be done to address that.

They do, but I understand the CMA has more control on that than the govt. I may be wrong, but it is my knowledge that the CMA reports to and gets the govt to follow along.

I believe that the CMA has set itself up as an elite org, and does not want the overly stringent requirements for Drs from other countries be allowed to practice , unless they re-do almost all the schooling here in Canada. Plainly, thats dumb.

No research mind you , but it seems that it is rural areas hard hit by a lack of doctors.

[fellowtraveller]

believe that the CMA has set itself up as an elite org, and does not want the overly stringent requirements for Drs from other countries be allowed to practice , unless they re-do almost all the schooling here in Canada. Plainly, thats dumb.

What is plain about it?

I expect the govt or its designate to make very sure that every physician licensed in my province to be thoroughly and demonstrably trained to an acceptable and universal standard. Doctors newly arrived from medical schools in Angola, Cuba or Turkmenistan may be wonderful, compassionate and intelligent doctors but they will not be adequately trained and should be forbidden from practicing until they are..

I agree that the medical associations in provinces have too much influence on med school graduations and admissions, and on licencing both domestic and foreign trained.

[Smallc]

Cuba

IF there's one thing they do well in Cuba, its train doctors.

[fellowtraveller]

IF there's one thing they do well in Cuba, its train doctors.

Nonsense.

They have no access in their schools or practices or hospitals to state of the art imaging and diagnostic equipment, or to new drugs.

Not good enough, not nearly good enough to work on this body.

I pay a lot for quality medical care in Canada, and I insist on getting it.

Perhaps the training upgrade for Cuban doctors should be shorter than for the doc from Bangladesh, but there is only a trail of misery in taking shortcuts.

[guyser]

What is plain about it?

The fact that they deny any and all skills that Doc may have, they ignore that the Doc may very well have come from a reputable Univ . All of that can be checked.

But to make them start from scratch when they can easily test where in the loop they should be, with an idea of fastracking them, seems plainly dumb to me.

No one, and certainly not me,is advocating that one should get a licence because he says he is a Doc, but the regs as est'd by the CMA are over kill.

[fellowtraveller]

The fact that they deny any and all skills that Doc may have, they ignore that the Doc may very well have come from a reputable Univ . All of that can be checked.

But to make them start from scratch when they can easily test where in the loop they should be, with an idea of fastracking them, seems plainly dumb to me.

No one, and certainly not me,is advocating that one should get a licence because he says he is a Doc, but the regs as est'd by the CMA are over kill.

Looks like we agree then that Cuba does not produce doctors that can be immediately accredited in Canada. They may train them well to Cuban standards, or your standards, but not up to Canadian standards.

I do agree that some of the Canadian requirements- which are actually provincial requirements- are complete overkill. Doctors trained in Western Europe or USA are acceptable with only minimal training/orientation, assuming that their language skills are adequate.