No New Abortion Talks. The Great and Powerful Wizard Has Spoken.

[Progressive Tory]

Anybody that seriously thought Harper was going to reopen the abortion debate in the Commons is in serious need of a psychiatrist, or at the very least of some IQ-boosting herbal remedies. Harper's job as leader is to win elections, not to deliver on every policy point that the party dreams up. He'd lose his job a lot quicker if he opened up the abortion debate now and enough Canadians say "F--- you!" and backed the coalition, and the Conservatives were defeated.

Huh? The idea is that we elect our MPs based on their Party platform and whether or not we can count on them to bring forward their promises. If his job is only to get elected, why bother? We don't need seat warmers though that definitely describes the current Tory caucus.

This is exactly why the Coaliton is poised to take over because he never stopped being the Leader of the Conservative Party long enough to be leader of this Country.

I don't see him winning another election.

[Jack Weber]

That all depends on timing...

[Progressive Tory]

That all depends on timing...

His time is up. His own Party knows it and the rumbles were loud even before his latest decision. He had his BEST chance at a majority last election. Instead, the dirty campaigning drove Canadians away. He garnered almost 170,000 fewer votes than 2006. Only vote-splitting gave him more seats. With plans for a united left next election, he'll have trouble buying a vote, especially if his core support, the Social Conservatives; are not pleased.

Nothing for the Religous Right. Nothing for the Fiscally Conservative because his spending has set new records and our economy was in the toilet before the economic crisis. What's left?

Canadians simply don't like him and never will.

[Jack Weber]

Interesting..I tend to agree,however I think the Lib's should allow Harper to wear the economy a little better.That would mean only using this coalition idea as a phantom hammer.Personally I don't think it's sellable as long as it gets framed as being propped up by the Bloq.In other words,let the budget pass because in all liklihood it's going to be a Liberlesque budget.

#1. Whatever measures are taken,they are probaly not going to have a great effect on the economy.

#2.This is the sweetest part.The kooky arms of the Conservative party are going to have a meltdown because of it!

I thought Brian Mulroney was the worst Prime Minister this country had ever seen,but Sweatervest has successfully supplanted him.I agree his time is up,however looking forward,the Con's might be in a bit of a pickle.Harper is the most stridently ideological Tory in a long time.If he does walk the plank,and the Tories try to soften their image with someone like Jean Charest,could you see another Reformlike split within that party?

And what are these plans for uniting the left.As long as Ignatieff is running the Lib show,I don't see him getting all palsy walsy with someone like Jack Layton,do you?

[Progressive Tory]

Interesting..I tend to agree,however I think the Lib's should allow Harper to wear the economy a little better.That would mean only using this coalition idea as a phantom hammer.Personally I don't think it's sellable as long as it gets framed as being propped up by the Bloq.In other words,let the budget pass because in all liklihood it's going to be a Liberlesque budget.

#1. Whatever measures are taken,they are probaly not going to have a great effect on the economy.

#2.This is the sweetest part.The kooky arms of the Conservative party are going to have a meltdown because of it!

I thought Brian Mulroney was the worst Prime Minister this country had ever seen,but Sweatervest has successfully supplanted him.I agree his time is up,however looking forward,the Con's might be in a bit of a pickle.Harper is the most stridently ideological Tory in a long time.If he does walk the plank,and the Tories try to soften their image with someone like Jean Charest,could you see another Reformlike split within that party?

And what are these plans for uniting the left.As long as Ignatieff is running the Lib show,I don't see him getting all palsy walsy with someone like Jack Layton,do you?

I agree. I would like to see the Coalition in the background so that Harper knows that he either does his job or he's out. He promised a spirit of co-operation, but instead went on the attack. I want to see him squirm for awhile.

I attended a townhall meeting just before Christmas with candidates for the Green, NDP and a representative for Peter Milliken (as Speaker of the House he has to remain neutral). The question was asked, what happened to the coalition if there is another election. All agreed that there would be some form of co-operation. The Green Party candidate said that so long as Proportional Representation was in the Liberal Platform they would remain loyal. The NDP candidate only wanted a national minimum wage.

There was nothing specific, but the contention was that perhaps if they didn't run as one Party, they would only field candidates in ridings where they had the best chance of beating the Conservatives. In other words, eliminate the competition and avoid vote splitting.

I think Mr. Ignatieff is going to be a great leader and may even hold appeal for Red Tories, like myself. He's got my vote. I'm printing my 'I Like Mike' T-Shirts as we speak. Smart and good looking. Be still my heart.

[noahbody]

Nothing for the Religous Right.

Got a citation for your claim on page 1 yet?

[gordiecanuk]

Sounds to me like you're the one who's close-minded and intolerant with your ignorant and bigoted talk about "bible thumpers". The religious right never constituted more than a small minority of the Reform Party, let alone the Conservative Party. The Conservatives, btw, continue to be the most ethnically diverse caucus in Parliament, just as the Reformers were before them. But I'm sure we'd never see the likes of you whining about all those religious Sikhs, Hindus or whatnot in their ranks.

You're right, there are religious extremists in every camp...not just Christians. They've found their home in the CPC.

[capricorn]

He had his BEST chance at a majority last election. Instead, the dirty campaigning drove Canadians away.

Actually, he drove Quebecers away with his boneheaded cut to cultural programs. I know Quebecers are Canadians too (well some of them see themselves as such). It's just that politically speaking, the Quebecois are in a class of their own.

Nothing for the Religous Right.

No surprise there.

Nothing for the Fiscally Conservative because his spending has set new records and our economy was in the toilet before the economic crisis. What's left?

Looks like Harper took lessons from the Liberals on campaigning from the right and governing from the left eh? It seems that's how a party gets and holds on to power in this country.

Canadians simply don't like him and never will.

And you know this how? Opinion or fact? If you're presenting a fact, do you have a source to back it up?

[Smallc]

You cannot divorce Dion and the green shift from the Liberal party.

That's funny, because they seem to have divorced him already. Voters have short memories.....lucky for the Prime Minister.

[Progressive Tory]

Got a citation for your claim on page 1 yet?

Equal Marriage still legal, abortion still legal, Human Rights Commission still exists. If you followed the last Conservative Convention just before Christmas, the top two priorities were abolishing the Human Rights Commission and making abortion a crime. How close are they to that when the leader just emphatically stated that it's not going to happen?

There was an old Harper speech when he was with the Reform Party floating around, originating I believe on UTube. In it he discusses the 'G words' in regard to Party initiatives. 'Girls', 'Guns', 'Gays' and 'Government Grants'.

OK, he scored a moral victory when he removed the word 'equality' from the Status for Women charter, but what did it really mean? OK. He may have scored another victory when he closed down women's shelters as part of funding cuts, so many have nowhere to go when they're being abused. He can add that to his scorecard.

Three years and the 'G' words still haunt him.

[gordiecanuk]

Equal Marriage still legal, abortion still legal, Human Rights Commission still exists. If you followed the last Conservative Convention just before Christmas, the top two priorities were abolishing the Human Rights Commission and making abortion a crime. How close are they to that when the leader just emphatically stated that it's not going to happen?

There was an old Harper speech when he was with the Reform Party floating around, originating I believe on UTube. In it he discusses the 'G words' in regard to Party initiatives. 'Girls', 'Guns', 'Gays' and 'Government Grants'.

OK, he scored a moral victory when he removed the word 'equality' from the Status for Women charter, but what did it really mean? OK. He may have scored another victory when he closed down women's shelters as part of funding cuts, so many have nowhere to go when they're being abused. He can add that to his scorecard.

Three years and the 'G' words still haunt him.

That type of socially regressive agenda is a recipe for electoral disaster for a minority government, and Harper knows it. If he had a majority? Then maybe...early in a mandate. Unless or until that happens he's left to tinker around the fringes.

[Progressive Tory]

Citation? And "My friend Joe told me" doesn't count.

After the 2006 election I made a list of Evangelical/Reform/Alliance from the new Conservative Party. You can look them up. Most are still MPs: Ed Fast, Dick Harris, Chuck Strahl, John Cummins, Nina Grewal, Betty Zane Hinton, Ron Cannon, Marjory LeBreton, Mark Warwara, James Lunney, Stockewell Day, Colin Mayes, Randy Kamp, James Moore, Jay Hill, Gary Lunn, Russ Hiebert, Lee Richards, Deepak Obhral, Art Hanger, Diane Ablonczy, Jason Kenney, Stephen Harper, Rob Anders, Kevin Sorenson, Peter Goldring, James Rajotte, John Williams, Ken Epp, Rahim Jaffer, Brian Jean, Rick Casson, Monte Solberg (Retired but actively campaigning), Chris Warkentin, Bob Mills, Leon Benoit, Blaine Calkins, Myron Thompson, Rob Merriefield, Gerry Ritz, Lynn Yalich (Catholic Evangelical), David Anderson, Brian Fitzpatrick, Andrew Scheer, Carol Skelton (Retired I believe), Maurice Vellacott, Garry Braitcreuz (sic?), Brad Trost, Steven Fletcher, Inky Mark, Joy Smith, Brian Pallister, Vic Toews, Rod Bruinooga, Merv Tweed, David Sweet, Patrick Brown, Larry Miller, Diane Finley, Scott Reid, Gord Brown, Tony Clement, Cheryl Gallant, Guy Lauzon, Peter Van Loan, Gerald Keddy. All Social Conservatives. There are probably more but that's as far as I got. Quite a list.

My point is that they will not sit on their hands forever waiting for action.

But if you don't think the Church is the driving force behind Stephen Harper, I have a few links:

"A common theme of news coverage of McVety is the degree of his influence and that of his evangelical colleagues over Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper and the Conservative government generall" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_McVety

"Harper is rapidly building an alliance with the worst elements of the US Christian right." http://www.thenation.com/doc/20061127/hedges

http://www.canadianchristianity.com/cgi-bi...es/060525invite

"The prime minister and other Conservative politicians have courted evangelical, as well as conservative Catholic and Jewish voters" and "More recently Ottawa’s Catholic archbishop told an audience that he would refuse communion to any Catholic politicians who support access to abortion if they couldn’t be persuaded to change their mind." and "Three New Democratic Party MPs were denied full participation in their church because of the position they and their party had taken on the same-sex marriage legislation" http://dennisgruending.ca/pulpitandpolitics/?cat=30

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/st...96-76f3db32808e

http://www.harperindex.ca/ViewArticle.cfm?Ref=00144

http://dennisgruending.ca/pulpitandpolitics/?cat=48

http://www.yayacanada.com/saba_harper.html

http://www.benedictionblogson.com/2008/09/...n-evangelicals/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/evangelical/

http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun...ry-private.aspx

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Sadly he is seeking help and support from outside of his party.

[Progressive Tory]

That type of socially regressive agenda is a recipe for electoral disaster for a minority government, and Harper knows it. If he had a majority? Then maybe...early in a mandate. Unless or until that happens he's left to tinker around the fringes.

My point is how long can he tinker around the fringes before his base support, the Religous Right, will give up on him? He can't get it done.

[ToadBrother]

My point is how long can he tinker around the fringes before his base support, the Religous Right, will give up on him? He can't get it done.

And where exactly are they going to go? Any of the small-time parties out there are either just two-bit operations or real nutjobs like the Christian Heritage Party, which is probably even too far to the right for most Evangelicals of the Stockwell Day variety.

About the only thing the Religious Right can do now is simply stay away from the polls, much as they did down in the States during the 2006 mid-terms and the 2008 election.

Harper sends out a lot of coded messages to the religious base anyways. That was what all the "we've got to be pragmatic right now" statements during the Conservatives policy convention was all about. The translation was "I'd love to ban abortion, but we're in no position to do it." My own anecdotal evidence from the social conservative Conservative supporters I know is that Harper's their guy, but the current climate really makes major moves impossible. They don't blame Harper, they blame all those goddamned hippes (as Cartman would say).

Where trouble may come is when Harper exits, and someone like Mackay makes a bid. Would the western Reform/Alliance rump (which is by far the most vocally religious and socially conservative) tolerate someone like Mackay? But that's a problem that won't be hitting the Conservatives for a while. Unless Harper does something completely inept in the next while and lose the government, I think he's safe for now.

[Mr.Canada]

My point is how long can he tinker around the fringes before his base support, the Religous Right, will give up on him? He can't get it done.

Harper's base support is the religious right? That's hilarious and grossly false.

[punked]

Harper's base support is the religious right? That's hilarious and grossly false.

I would say they make up 20% of the base but I have nothing to support that claim.

[ToadBrother]

Harper's base support is the religious right? That's hilarious and grossly false.

And yet that's why *you* support him.

[Mr.Canada]

I would say they make up 20% of the base but I have nothing to support that claim.

Alright, that's it wheres punked and what have you done to him. 2 for 2 today punked in common sense.

And yet that's why *you* support him.

Sure it is but me or people like me hardly make up the base of the party.

[punked]

Alright, that's it wheres punked and what have you done to him. 2 for 2 today punked in common sense.

Sure it is but me or people like me hardly make up the base of the party.

Losing 20% of your base though would kill you in Canadian politics.

[Mr.Canada]

Losing 20% of your base though would kill you in Canadian politics.

Will not happen though. No chance.

[punked]

Will not happen though. No chance.

If the extremist don;t see movement soon (abortion, pry in school, gay marriage) you will see movement to a fringe party to show Harper if he wants the base he better do something. Granted it might only be 25-30% inside that 20% but that is big movement. It might even be enough movement if this party can run in every riding to get official party status. Then you have a right wing green party which Harper can sustain like the Liberals and the NDP can. There is not enough room on the right for a fringe party to get official status. Harper knows this.

[gordiecanuk]

I would say they make up 20% of the base but I have nothing to support that claim.

When polls indicated 3/4's of Canadians who regularily attend church services support the CPC...that's telling you something right there. "The Base" doesn't just refer to card carrying members of the party. The Liberals have a base too, there's lots of morons in this country who will vote Liberal until their dying breath no matter what they do.

[kimmy]

People who hate or fear Harper tend to view him as an evangelical, believing that ultimately his religious views will shape his party's policy.

I think those people are mistaken. The defining characteristic of Harper's political career has not been dogmatism, but pragmatism.

As with Chretien and Martin's Catholicism, Harper's religious views will take a back seat to what is possible, practical, and electable.

It continues to surprise me that many of Harper's detractors on the one hand insist that he will stop at nothing to obtain power, while on the other hand warn of terrible things that will happen if he obtains it. These two ideas are fundamentally at odds.

As a pragmatist, Harper recognizes that the values of the hardcore social conservatives in the party are an obstacle to his success. As a pragmatist, Harper knows that the Charter of Rights and Supreme Court rulings have a deeply limiting effect on any socially conservative agenda he could pursue even if he wanted to. There is no way that an attempt to enact a socially conservative policy on any of the religious right's favorite issues could be done in a way that would appease the target audience anyway, so there is no gain in pursuing it at all.

-k

[Mr.Canada]

For the last time. It's going to be a private members bill. No one has any control over who tables a private members bill. It won't be for a little while yet anyways so relax. You can kill your babies at will still. It has support by members from all parties. It's going to pass theres no question about that. We just need to wait unmtil we get more support in the Senate as it is there are too many Liberals in there yet. Maybe another year or two.