Tory MP Rod Brinooge abortion bill

[punked]

Christian Churches give much more charity to the precious homeless than anyone does. I understand you hate God Drea, that's your choice and some day you'll answer for it, none the less it isn't a social club. If you've been to Church, you'd know that. Plus this will never happen.

Citation please. I call Bull shit!

[Mr.Canada]

Citation please. I call Bull shit!

Most of the homeless shelters/hot meals are run by the Salvation Army in any city. A Christian Church. Case closed.

In from the cold are held in Church basements. I speak from experience, I told you I used to be homeless in Toronto. I've stayed in almost every shelter down there.

Edited January 4, 2009 by Mr.Canada

[gordiecanuk]

Citation please. I call Bull shit!

Better listen to MC punked....or you don't get to heaven. But upon careful consideration, if MC is gonna be there...maybe its not a place worth visiting.

[punked]

Most of the homeless shelters/hot meals are run by the Salvation Army in any city. A Christian Church. Case closed.

In from the cold are held in Church basements. I speak from experience, I told you I used to be homeless in Toronto. I've stayed in almost every shelter down there.

Citation PLEASE!!!!

[jdobbin]

Citation PLEASE!!!!

I doubt he has one.

[Mr.Canada]

Citation PLEASE!!!!

You don't believe that most of the shelters for homeless/meals for the homeless are run by the Salvation Army? Open a phone book or call the city of Toronto.

The In from the Cold program is run in Church basements in Downtown TO.

Jdobbin, open your Winnipeg phone book and tell me how many Sally Ann's there are.

Edited January 4, 2009 by Mr.Canada

[punked]

You don't believe that most of the shelters for homeless/ meals for the homeless are run by the Salvation Army? Open a phone book or call the city of Toronto.

The In from the Cold program is run in Church basements in Downtown TO.

CITATION PLEASE!!!!!!

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I had no say in reopening this highly divisive debate! That was a right wingnut from Harpers own camp. Further to that point about cleaning up a political mess, I think you need to look up some facts. Lyin' Brian took us to a new high in deficits and debts. The Liberals are the fiscally responsible party in federal politics. Harper went from surplus to deficit. He said the economy was in good shape up here. Only a fool would believe that a political party is responsible for economies, that is way out of their power. Yet the do get all the hits and take all of the credits for it.

To return to the point, this was a private members bill. It was not reflective of the party line, nor is it reflective of a majority opinion of members in the House of Commons. The bill will die in committee, before it has a chance to return to the floor.

[Mr.Canada]

CITATION PLEASE!!!!!!

If you live in Toronto, open your phone book. No one else is backing you up as I am right. Just accept it. Christian Groups give more to homeless than any other charities.

[punked]

I AM ASKING FOR A CITATION. If you can not provide one I will assume you made it up like all your other facts. I looked in the phone book there are no homeless stats in there.

PS what is the largest homeless shelter in T.O.?

Edited January 4, 2009 by punked

[Mr.Canada]

I AM ASKING FOR A CITATION. If you can not provide one I will assume you made it up like all your other facts. I looked in the phone book there are no homeless stats in there.

PS what is the largest homeless shelter in T.O.?

The largest single shelter is probably Seaton house run by the City but it's a dump. Covenant HOuse is also pretty big but is only for youth, no adults.

Edited January 4, 2009 by Mr.Canada

[punked]

The largest single shelter is probably Seaton house run by the City but it's a dump. Covenant HOuse is also pretty big but is only for youth, no adults.

You are right Seaton House. No one said what is the nicest. They city and the Feds pump close to 100 million a year into Homelessness. This is why I want a Citation becuase what you are saying is a lie.

[Mr.Canada]

You are right Seaton House. No one said what is the nicest. They city and the Feds pump close to 100 million a year into Homelessness. This is why I want a Citation becuase what you are saying is a lie.

The government isn't a charity.

[Drea]

Christian Churches give much more charity to the precious homeless than anyone does. I understand you hate God Drea, that's your choice and some day you'll answer for it, none the less it isn't a social club.

How can I "hate" something that I don't believe exists?

Does not believing in ET's translate into "hating" them?

It IS a social club -- being a part of this "exclusive club" makes you feel good, that's nice for you -- but leave me out of it.

One day you may regret not believing in Vishnu! What if Vishnu is an actual god??! What will you do?

Being an atheist is easy -- I simply believe in one less god than you do.

[ToadBrother]

Abortion should not be a form of birth control...It's not like pulling out an absessed tooth...it's a very serious matter....We encourage our young to parrot and mimic the pop culture of disposablity and totally recreational sexuality...If you don't want to have a child - don't have sex...what are you - a dumb animal?

Can you cite some statistics to demonstrate that it is being used as birth control?

[punked]

The government isn't a charity.

Religious organization make up Half all the money given to Charities, and 30% goes to health care operations. That only leaves 20% of real secular charities. Again you compare apples to oranges. Give me percentages.

[Mr.Canada]

We are no even close.

May 14, 1969 being the year that abortion was taken out of the criminal code by passing Bill 150.

Social programs geared towards women and single mothers have moved quite far since that time.

[madmax]

Social programs geared towards women and single mothers have moved quite far since that time.

You want to do away with socialism which are programs adopted by Liberal and Conservative and Social Credit Governments.

So, one minute you bash socialists, and next minute you are using them for the backstop when you fail to catch the ball.

[Mr.Canada]

You want to do away with socialism which are programs adopted by Liberal and Conservative and Social Credit Governments.

So, one minute you bash socialists, and next minute you are using them for the backstop when you fail to catch the ball.

I have never advocated doing away with all social programs.

[WIP]

Socialists care about the living breathing human being.

The rights of the woman carrying the fetus trump the fetus.

How is that so difficult to understand?

Likely impossible to understand for Captain Canada. He has a tin ear for any facts or problems that stand in the way of his dream of a future Holy Roman Empire.

The realization for most men that a fetal right to life is an encumbrance on pregnant women can be directly and indirectly credited to M.I.T. philosophy professor Judith Jarvis Thompson, who wrote a philosophy paper back in 1971, before Roe vs. Wade, called A Defense of Abortion, which presented a number of unusual thought problems such as the "Violinist" -- where you wake up in the hospital to be told that your kidneys are needed to keep the man in the next bed alive, and you will need to stay in that hospital bed for the next nine months until he is able to survive on his own; or the “Expanding Child” :

"Suppose you find yourself trapped in a tiny house with a growing child. I mean a very tiny house, and a rapidly growing child—you are already up against the wall of the house and in a few minutes you’ll be crushed to death. The child on the other hand won’t be crushed to death; if nothing is done to stop him from growing he’ll be hurt, but in the end he’ll simply burst open the house and walk out a free man

"

....and even "Henry Fonda":

"If I am sick unto death, and the only thing that will save my life is the touch of Henry Fonda's cool hand on my fevered brow. then all the same, I have no right to be given the touch of Henry Fonda's cool hand on my fevered brow. It would be frightfully nice of him to fly in from the West Coast to provide it. It would be less nice, though no doubt well meant, if my friends flew out to the West coast and brought Henry Fonda back with them. But I have no right at all against anybody that he should do this for me. "

But the arguments derived from using these examples are only going to register with men (and women who have never had children) if they are concerned about fairness. I think the leaders of the Pro Life movement are well aware that an absolute pro life doctrine is an encumbrance on the rights and freedoms of women, and that is reason why they are advocating such an extreme position, not because of concerned that zygotes have souls. If their dream comes of a ban on abortion and birth control come true, birth rates will skyrocket to levels that exist now only in Muslim nations and other countries that have turned back the clock, like El Salvador, that have followed Catholic Church doctrine and re-criminalized abortion.

If women are once again, pregnant as soon as they are sexually mature, and stay pregnant until menopause, then their public role is in society is drastically reduced even if no further punitive laws are introduced. And any patriarchal institution can go back to running society the way that they used to. IF the prime objective was "saving the unborn" like they claim in their propaganda, the focus would be shifted towards "natural abortions" - the 50% to 80% of pregnancies that end in miscarriage. Where's the Marshall Plan to improve prenatal care and end the miscarriage holocaust? Well, it doesn't exist, because the so called pro life advocates don't give a rat's ass about life or quality of life anyway! Their concern is about exercising control, and claiming to be pro life is just a convenient rhetorical device to win supporters and put opponents on the defensive with endless stupid charges of "baby killer" at their rallies.

I support restricting abortion to the first 20 weeks -- reasons for it are irrelevant. But we need to do this without the rapid prolifers using a "back door" to restrict abortion completely.

And most sensible people seem to agree that some point where the fetus is viable outside the womb or starts developing the higher brain areas of the Cortex that make us human in the first place, is the proper point to give a fetus rights that would encumber a pregnant woman, and require her to hang a little while longer since she's already gone five or six months into the pregnancy.

[Mr.Canada]

Stop making these massive posts please. I don't read them. Keep it short and sweet with links if necessary.

[ToadBrother]

Stop making these massive posts please. I don't read them. Keep it short and sweet with links if necessary.

It's not surprising that literacy is another problem of yours.

[madmax]

The realization for most men that a fetal right to life is an encumbrance on pregnant women can be directly and indirectly credited to M.I.T. philosophy professor Judith Jarvis Thompson, who wrote a philosophy paper back in 1971, before Roe vs. Wade, called A Defense of Abortion, which

Thanks for providing these long and informative posts. I read them and like them. Thank you for providing links as well.

Its great to broaden the discussion while staying on topic.

[WIP]

Thanks for providing these long and informative posts. I read them and like them. Thank you for providing links as well.

Your welcome! I don't expect Mr. Canada to read them, but when a debate like abortion has dragged on and on for decades, it's good to occasionally go back and read the history of the debate and the fight to legalize abortion, since the anti-abortion side is never going to give up and stop recycling the same old arguments.

Religious Right talkers these days are taking advantage of how quickly people forget their history, and now that the stories of women who became gravely ill or died from back alley abortions are a fading memory, they don't get reminded often enough that re-criminalizing abortion does not mean ending abortion. Since much of the public has forgotten these lessons, their arguments gain more traction now in this age of ignorance than they did 30 years ago.

[punked]

Your welcome! I don't expect Mr. Canada to read them, but when a debate like abortion has dragged on and on for decades, it's good to occasionally go back and read the history of the debate and the fight to legalize abortion, since the anti-abortion side is never going to give up and stop recycling the same old arguments.

Religious Right talkers these days are taking advantage of how quickly people forget their history, and now that the stories of women who became gravely ill or died from back alley abortions are a fading memory, they don't get reminded often enough that re-criminalizing abortion does not mean ending abortion. Since much of the public has forgotten these lessons, their arguments gain more traction now in this age of ignorance than they did 30 years ago.

Judith Jarvis Thompson had some great points it is where I got my organ donor example from but Mr Canada never responded to that one either.