Canadian troops need to be air mobilized!

[Smallc]

Even small nations have armed helicopters, for example.

So do we. There are 8 in Afghanistan right now.

[M.Dancer]

Very true..

In Afghanistan our guys should be doing helicopter patrols exclusively! cover more ground and be somewhat safer!

Adn have absolutely no control on the ground.

Were you fibbing when you said you were retired CAF?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

This is something that we don't need at all.

Then what is it that you think we need? The V22 can move troops, very quickly I might add. If you want armed helicopters that is another story, I do not advocate that course of action. If you want close support, I will suggest the AC130H Specter. Canada has very specific needs, the equipment needs to meet the needs.

[AngusThermopyle]

how about some massive tanks that can with stand those IEDs

Before saying such things you should actually know what you're talking about. Our Leopard MKII's are fitted with the new anti mine packages and have not only survived IED hits but remained functional afterwards.

Air mobile capability is a very neccessary component of the modern battlefield, as are attack type helo's. Unfortunatelly in Canada we decided that a bunch of politicians were more capable of deciding what the military needs than actual military proffesionals. So we appointed a bunch of civilians to the highest levels of the military and cut the guys who actually know what they're doing out of the loop, great idea.

Theres a ton of good stuff we could use but will never get while we let civilians call the shots as far as procurement goes. Not being military they generally don't have two clues to rub together when it comes to this stuff.

A good example would be the "do everything" supply ships they proposed to build. Anyone with any knowledge of the subject could tell you that this was an extremely flawed idea but until Harper did the right thing and cancelled them we were going to go ahead and build these white elephants, thus sadeling the Navy with ships that would not have done anything particularly well.

[Argus]

So do we. There are 8 in Afghanistan right now.

They are not armed helicopters.

[Smallc]

They are not armed helicopters.

No?

Yahoo! News

[wulf42]

Adn have absolutely no control on the ground.

Were you fibbing when you said you were retired CAF?

Not a bright one are ya sonny.....lol?

Of course you need boots on the ground but transporting them to various places by Helicopter rather than using only lightly armoured jeeps and APC'S which is getting our guys killed would make better sense!

Edited December 21, 2008 by wulf42

[wulf42]

So do we. There are 8 in Afghanistan right now.

Wow 8 helicopters!...hardly enough!

Edited December 21, 2008 by wulf42

[Argus]

No?

Yahoo! News

Griffons as gunships? Holy shit, I wouldn't want to be flying one. Remember that the Griffon is essentially nothing but a civilian helicopter with dull paint, and just as vulnerable. In reading on this various sources say the Griffons would not be used in the traditional role of attack helicopters - supporting ground operations. Its sole purpose would be to escort the chinooks and fire only if fired upon. But this is a halfassed solution to the problem. What we need are real armed helicopters, ie, Apaches, like the Aussies have.

[Smallc]

Griffons as gunships? Holy shit, I wouldn't want to be flying one. Remember that the Griffon is essentially nothing but a civilian helicopter with dull paint, and just as vulnerable.

That may be true most of the time, but not for this mission:

The Griffons, which have been given extra sensors and Gatling guns on top of their existing side door machine-guns and armour plating, will provide escort and protection for the larger Chinook transport helicopters.

And yes, you're right about their use. I really don't think there's a big enough roll for attack helicopters within most missions the forces perform.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Smallc

[DogOnPorch]

Aye...the Apache or Super Cobra. Black Hawks for the troops. Chinooks and Sky Cranes for heavy lifting. I hear we have use of Mi-8s...hunks o' junk.

----------------------------------------------------

I have never advocated war except as a means of peace.

---President Ulysses S. Grant

[Smallc]

What we need are real armed helicopters, ie, Apaches, like the Aussies have.

As far as I can see, they use Eurocopter Tigers. I can't find anything about Apaches.

[Topaz]

On the CBC sunday morning program they asked the head of Canadians operation if it was true that drugs are being used within the troops. The Brig-Gen. said we have rules about that and if anyone was caught they would be sent back to Canada to face punishment. Well, from what my son was told by (lets call him stevie) returning from Afg. that's not true. Either the Gen is covering up or he does know what is happening there. Guys are using them to help them get through one day to another. They are having nightmares of seeing people killed and like stevie said, a drugged soldier is a controlled soldier and he also said the US guys are taking them too. Stevie decided have been there since Canada sent help, is not going back ever.

[Ontario Loyalist]

Then what is it that you think we need? The V22 can move troops, very quickly I might add. If you want armed helicopters that is another story, I do not advocate that course of action. If you want close support, I will suggest the AC130H Specter. Canada has very specific needs, the equipment needs to meet the needs.

The problem is solved by not putting Canadian soldiers in the situation they are in, in the first place.

[Ontario Loyalist]

how about some massive tanks that can with stand those IEDs

I've seen a video of an M1 Abrams tank taking a nice flight after encountering an IED. I suppose the tank was salvagable, but I'm not so sure about the crew...

[DogOnPorch]

The problem is solved by not putting Canadian soldiers in the situation they are in, in the first place.

Worked well for Poland.

-----------------------------

I married a German. Every night I dress up as Poland and he invades me.

---Bette Midler

[Ontario Loyalist]

Air mobile capability is a very neccessary component of the modern battlefield, as are attack type helo's.

In theory, I suppose, but then again the Cavalry was still seen as a "component of the modern battlefield" at the beginning (and by some during) the First World War. It takes a real war to prove how feasible military theory is, and we haven't had one of those in a loooooong time. If we look back to the Vietnam, which is the closest that we've come to a real war since the Second World War, a number of tactics can be easily devised to significantly inhibit the aerial capabilities of a more advanced foe. My guess is that if there ever was a serious war with another major power, most of the technical gadgets of the "modern battlefield" would quickly become redundant and that much of the fighting would be done the good old-fashioned way.

[DogOnPorch]

As far as I can see, they use Eurocopter Tigers. I can't find anything about Apaches.

The Australian Navy uses the S-70 which is an armed Blackhawk (looks a bit Apache-like). They might have been using a few Apaches via the US when they were in the market for an attack helicopter. Apparently though, the Aussies were sold on the Tiger when one crashed in front of the selection team and the crew walked away unharmed.

---------------------------------------------------

It's a Daisy.

[DogOnPorch]

...since the Second World War, a number of tactics can be easily devised to significantly inhibit the aerial capabilities of a more advanced foe.

Like what?

-----------------------

Off we go, into the wild blue yonder...

[wulf42]

The problem is solved by not putting Canadian soldiers in the situation they are in, in the first place.

They are soldiers! nobody said their job was safe it is what they signed up for! But Canada should give them the best equipment money can buy so they can do their mission!

Edited December 21, 2008 by wulf42

[Smallc]

It seems the griffons will be used for more than escort. They may also become the eyes for ground patrol.

The commander of Canada's air wing, Col. Christopher Coates, said the Griffons may also be used to spot roadside bombs, which have killed more than half of the 103 Canadian soldiers lost in the Afghanistan mission since it began in 2002.

CBC

[DogOnPorch]

The Griffon is just the latest version of the tried n' true Bell Huey Iroquois/Hog line. It makes a passable gunship at the expense of lift capacity...especially during the heat of summer. In Viet-nam they were often stripped of all weapons and armor (Slick) in order to operate safely in the steamy tropics. Gunship versions often had to play a game of 'hopscotch' (bouncing while moving forward) in order to get into the air.

The Iroquois had the large cargo/troop compartment while the Hog had the shorter, smaller compartment.

-------------------------------------------------------------

[while flying in a helicopter with Air Cavalry soldiers]

Chef: Why do all you guys sit on your helmets?

Soldier: So we don't get our balls blown off.

---

[Argus]

The Australian Navy uses the S-70 which is an armed Blackhawk (looks a bit Apache-like). They might have been using a few Apaches via the US when they were in the market for an attack helicopter. Apparently though, the Aussies were sold on the Tiger when one crashed in front of the selection team and the crew walked away unharmed.

And what are the odds of that happening with the Gryffon? It's not a very powerful helicopter to begin with. Adding armor will not help. And it still lacks the kind of duplication military helicopters have. I highly doubt its rotors can resist small arms fire as those of real gunships/attack helicopters are designed for.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not against sending the Gryffon. It's what we have available.

What bugs me is that's all we have available, because our federal governments, including this one, have not placed enough priority on properly equipping the military.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Argus

[DogOnPorch]

It's not a dedicated gunship, for one. This is the very reason the US developed the Cobra was due to shortfalls of an all-in-one system like the Iroquois. A jack of all trades is master of none.

--------------------------------------------------

[radio announcer] And now here's another blast from the past coming out to Big Cind, all alone in the mantle room out there with the First Battalion Thirty-fifth Infantry, and dedicated by the fire team at An Khe to their groupie CO Fred the Head: The Rolling Stones' Satisfaction.

---Apocalypse Now!

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Look folks, the equipment needed is task dependent. If you have all kinds of tasks you need all kinds of equipment. The thing that needs doing is the updating our military, period. If the roads are unsafe, then you either make them safe, or don't use them. Its all about risk management and a command authority. This isn't business, this is war. Economics don't apply, munitions and equipment do. That is the way things are, it is a reality.