Racism

[GostHacked]

Nonsense.

Anabolic steroids on their own can't turn anyone into anything (other than, possibly, a eunuch or a corpse.)

I know some body builders who simply would not be able to gain the muscle mass they have without steroids. Yes it has disaterous effects on the body and mind, but the result is what they wanted. The desire in some to win win win at any costs means that performance enhancing drugs will be key to that win.

They can provide an elite athlete with a competitive advantage over other elite athletes (or, if you have a more cynical outlook, allow an elite athlete to compete on a level playing field against all the other elite athletes who are using that stuff.)

SNL had a skit on this. All Drug Olympics.

-k

[Melanie_]

Well, in this thread, Melanie (offering high altitude the reason for Kenyan dominance in distance running) and Morris Dancer (asking why Kenyans don't dominate the Premier League, and comparing Kenyan dominance in distance running to French dominance in cuisine). Melanie offers an environmental explanation; Morris offers cultural explanations and copious sarcasm; both seeking to dismiss the role of genetics.

Let me try again; I don’t think I was very clear earlier in the thread.

It isn’t a matter of nature or nurture; nature works through nurture, and vice versa. So, if an individual (not an entire population) has the right genetics and body type to be a good runner, they still need the conditions to develop that skill to its fullest potential. If they don’t have the right genetics and body type, it doesn’t matter what the conditions are, they aren’t going to be as skilled at that activity as someone who does.

My point, though, was that you can’t say that being Kenyan makes you a good runner. There are 31 million people in Kenya, and obviously not all of them are marathoners. It would be like saying everyone in Canada is a good hockey player. Yes, we have some very good hockey players, and we have the conditions to nurture their skills, but there are many of us who could never compete on any kind of level at the sport.

[kimmy]

I know some body builders who simply would not be able to gain the muscle mass they have without steroids. Yes it has disaterous effects on the body and mind, but the result is what they wanted. The desire in some to win win win at any costs means that performance enhancing drugs will be key to that win.

The difference between an athlete who's put in the time to do the training, and some guy off the street, is immense. It's indescribable. Even if that guy off the street has a genetic predisposition that would make him awesome at some sport... he's not going to be awesome until he's done the training.

But when you get to an elite level of competition, *everybody* there has done the training and put in the work. And at *that* point, other factors weigh in. Longer legs, better weight distribution, genetic predisposition to build more muscle, at some point... when everybody has worked hard to get the most out of their bodies, the guy whose body is just genetically more suited has an advantage that the other guy won't be able to overcome.

Steroids mimic a genetic advantage (high levels of male hormone.) It doesn't do the training for you. It doesn't do the work that actually lets you build muscle using all of this extra male hormone.

Let me try again; I don’t think I was very clear earlier in the thread.

It isn’t a matter of nature or nurture; nature works through nurture, and vice versa. So, if an individual (not an entire population) has the right genetics and body type to be a good runner, they still need the conditions to develop that skill to its fullest potential. If they don’t have the right genetics and body type, it doesn’t matter what the conditions are, they aren’t going to be as skilled at that activity as someone who does.

My point, though, was that you can’t say that being Kenyan makes you a good runner. There are 31 million people in Kenya, and obviously not all of them are marathoners. It would be like saying everyone in Canada is a good hockey player. Yes, we have some very good hockey players, and we have the conditions to nurture their skills, but there are many of us who could never compete on any kind of level at the sport.

I think we're basically on the same page to that point. All I'm getting at is this: at some point, the hand that nature dealt you enters into it. Longer arms are an advantage in boxing or basketball. Shorter arms are an advantage in weightlifting. And, while it might sound like crazy-talk to say something like this, somebody with ancestry that has centuries upon centuries of natural selection geared to high-altitude life probably has an inherent advantage when it comes to their *potential* to excel in distance running.

But if that was the whole story, Paula Radcliffe wouldn't be the world record holder.

-k

[Pliny]

But if that was the whole story, Paula Radcliffe wouldn't be the world record holder.

-k

Yeah - I would be!

[kimmy]

Yeah - I would be!

Really? I had not pictured you as an East African woman. For some reason I pictured you as a tubby white dude.

-k

[Guest TrueMetis]

Really? I had not pictured you as an East African woman. For some reason I pictured you as a tubby white dude.

-k

I pictured him as a short tubby white dude.

Edited November 7, 2009 by TrueMetis

[Pliny]

Really? I had not pictured you as an East African woman. For some reason I pictured you as a tubby white dude.

-k

Just goes to show how wrong you can be.

Actually old, tubby, tautologous white dude fits. But not short.

[Oleg Bach]

The basis of racism is economic. Those on top of the food chain perpetuate racism. As long as we are consumed by hate and fear we can not focus on the matters that are real and binding. Originally the super rich knew that cheap or costless slave labour served them well..so instead of doing the right thing for everyone..they made sure that certain groups of slaves were hated and pushed to the bottom of the labour pool.