A Fight That Can't Be Won. Afghanistan Mission.

[DogOnPorch]

That is my point Context. One life or 50 000 if the war is right in the first place then it will continue. The deaths put it in context for us. This is not right so one death is enough in a fight that is pointless.

If it was 50 000 deaths then you would want out? So those 100 men aren't your stopping point? Well the first guy was mine.

I didn't state right or wrong either way. My point is simply context. If I had to fight in a war at some point in history, Afghanistan would be my choice due to its very low level of violence. It only seems horrible because we have to watch it on the news every night.

All war is hell, I think we can agree...but this 'war' in Afghanistan isn't General Sherman burning Atlanta by any stretch.

------------------------------------------

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

---President Dwight D. Eisenhower

[DogOnPorch]

It only seems horrible because we have to watch it on the news every night.

To be clear: Horrible as per Ypres or Stalingrad.

--------------------------------------------

Boy, the way Glenn Miller played. Songs that made the Hit Parade.

Guys like us, we had it made. Those were the days.

Didn't need no welfare state. Everybody pulled his weight.

Gee, our old LaSalle ran great. Those were the days.

[punked]

I didn't state right or wrong either way. My point is simply context. If I had to fight in a war at some point in history, Afghanistan would be my choice due to its very low level of violence. It only seems horrible because we have to watch it on the news every night.

All war is hell, I think we can agree...but this 'war' in Afghanistan isn't General Sherman burning Atlanta by any stretch.

------------------------------------------

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

---President Dwight D. Eisenhower

Ok I will agree. Man I wish there were Republicans Like Eisenhower still.

[DogOnPorch]

Ok I will agree. Man I wish there were Republicans Like Eisenhower still.

You could be a Roman soldier at Cannae. Seventy thousand butchered in an afternoon...literally. No significant number of survivors (inside the Carthaginian encirclement).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae

Inside a LAV with roadside bombs being the main worry would seem like heaven...for the universal soldier.

Ike was a good man. Won the war in the West. Saved us from the likes of Patton.

----------------------------------------

Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil and you're a thousand miles from the corn field.

---President Dwight D. Eisenhower

Edited December 16, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[bush_cheney2004]

Ok I will agree. Man I wish there were Republicans Like Eisenhower still.

I don't think Vietnam would agree.

[blueblood]

You could be a Roman soldier at Cannae. Seventy thousand butchered in an afternoon...literally. No significant number of survivors (inside the Carthaginian encirclement).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae

Inside a LAV with roadside bombs being the main worry would seem like heaven...for the universal soldier.

Ike was a good man. Won the war in the West. Saved us from the likes of Patton.

----------------------------------------

Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil and you're a thousand miles from the corn field.

---President Dwight D. Eisenhower

and what was wrong with patton?

[DogOnPorch]

and what was wrong with patton?

He was a great general in charge of the 3rd Army but a loose cannon towards the end of the war. Had he had his way we'd have fought the Russians right after finishing the Germans. Not a man you wanted calling the strategic shots. Ike was a far cooler character. When the Russians and Americans met, they danced, drank and exchanged gifts. Much nicer than WW3.

--------------------------------------------

We herd sheep, we drive cattle, we lead people. Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way.

---General George S. Patton

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Nonsense....not for the Americas, not for Europe, not for Africa, and not for Asia. Stop pretending that America is any different from what it has always been.

Sorry....you can't have it both ways....American muscle is not your puppet.

Nonsense? Hardly. American foreign policy has changed in dramatic fashion in the last forty odd years. Vietnam was the beginning of its folly, but that was merely a starting point. It was hardly the end of their changing policies. The rise of the military industrial complex has fed much on the tax paying citizen, their influence finally rising to where it is found today. In all of its forms it alone has withstood the economic slide, supported as it is on tax dollars. That is the pointed edge of American foreign policy.

America is very different from what it was at the turn of the last century, the modern empire of America rose from the ashes of the first and second world war. It brought peace and prosperity to the world, until the profits of war were realized by corporate interests. Now, those profits spell much grief for the American people.

America is not my puppet, then again it is not their own either. America is now a puppet child of its own design from corporate greed. Transnational corporations control much political influence and that influence has made a mockery of American justice. America was once a paragon of virtue, but no more.

[bush_cheney2004]

Nonsense? Hardly. American foreign policy has changed in dramatic fashion in the last forty odd years. Vietnam was the beginning of its folly, but that was merely a starting point. It was hardly the end of their changing policies.

Look...I don't expect you to have a firm grasp of American history, but the USA aggressively expanded and influenced not only the America's, but also Asia long before 1968.

America is very different from what it was at the turn of the last century, the modern empire of America rose from the ashes of the first and second world war. It brought peace and prosperity to the world, until the profits of war were realized by corporate interests. Now, those profits spell much grief for the American people.

More nonsense....see Great White Fleet..or "Gunboat Diplomacy".

America is not my puppet, then again it is not their own either. America is now a puppet child of its own design from corporate greed. Transnational corporations control much political influence and that influence has made a mockery of American justice. America was once a paragon of virtue, but no more.

You are kidding yourself....or you flunked history class.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Look...I don't expect you to have a firm grasp of American history, but the USA aggressively expanded and influenced not only the America's, but also Asia long before 1968.

More nonsense....see Great White Fleet..or "Gunboat Diplomacy".

You are kidding yourself....or you flunked history class.

You are full of yourself, and quite delusional.

Let me make this very clear to you. America has changed its foreign policy since Kennedy. Johnson did what Kennedy would not. Nixon forward were all trapped by the reality Eisenhauer warned them about. It was true when Ike said it then, and it still is. American democracy was hijacked by corporate interests.

Today the Americans even now are feeling the impact of their course of action. Massive debt, decreasing employment and now deflation during a recession. That is the legacy of a foreign policy gone off the reservation.

[blueblood]

He was a great general in charge of the 3rd Army but a loose cannon towards the end of the war. Had he had his way we'd have fought the Russians right after finishing the Germans. Not a man you wanted calling the strategic shots. Ike was a far cooler character. When the Russians and Americans met, they danced, drank and exchanged gifts. Much nicer than WW3.

--------------------------------------------

We herd sheep, we drive cattle, we lead people. Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way.

---General George S. Patton

Maybe that would have been not such a bad idea. Communism could have been cooked right then and there.

[DogOnPorch]

Maybe that would have been not such a bad idea. Communism could have been cooked right then and there.

WW3 a good idea? Right.... Can I have a beer, too? It's early but what the hell...

------------------------

Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach.

---Joseph Stalin

[ToadBrother]

Maybe that would have been not such a bad idea. Communism could have been cooked right then and there.

The Soviets had massive amounts of troops and armor in Germany and surrounding areas. Maybe we could have won, but what was left of Europe would have been pounded into the ground. While preliminary plans were allegedly drawn up, and even some British strategists expected there to be an armed conflict with the Russians, the thought of an even longer protracted war, particularly with Russia, was more than anyone could stomach. What would have been the goal? Simply to oust them from Eastern Europe? To overthrow the Communists? Hitler had basically lost the war because he got bogged down in Russia, just like Napoleon had a century earlier. Russia is a very hard place to invade.

[Canadian Blue]

Perhaps the thinking is that we should have taken a firm stance that the Soviets should leave Eastern Europe after the war instead. That would have been better than simply going 'meh' while the Iron Curtain was falling across Europe.

[blueblood]

The Soviets had massive amounts of troops and armor in Germany and surrounding areas. Maybe we could have won, but what was left of Europe would have been pounded into the ground. While preliminary plans were allegedly drawn up, and even some British strategists expected there to be an armed conflict with the Russians, the thought of an even longer protracted war, particularly with Russia, was more than anyone could stomach. What would have been the goal? Simply to oust them from Eastern Europe? To overthrow the Communists? Hitler had basically lost the war because he got bogged down in Russia, just like Napoleon had a century earlier. Russia is a very hard place to invade.

Hitler made a large strategic mistake regarding Russia. He pretty much had it sown up if not for Stalingrad. You also have to remember nuclear weapons are in play, and the US had them 4 yrs. before the Russians. The allies had air superiority as well.

[bush_cheney2004]

You are full of yourself, and quite delusional.

Let me make this very clear to you. America has changed its foreign policy since Kennedy. Johnson did what Kennedy would not. Nixon forward were all trapped by the reality Eisenhauer warned them about. It was true when Ike said it then, and it still is. American democracy was hijacked by corporate interests.

No, I am an American who not only knows his country's history, but actually lived through it. What are your credentials from afar? I don't like to do this in an A-stan thread, but sometimes it's the only way to demonstrate the folly of your thinking:

Partial list of US military interventions since 1890:

SOUTH DAKOTA 1890 (-?) Troops 300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee.

ARGENTINA 1890 Troops Buenos Aires interests protected.

CHILE 1891 Troops Marines clash with nationalist rebels.

HAITI 1891 Troops Black revolt on Navassa defeated.

HAWAII 1893 (-?) Naval, troops Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.

NICARAGUA 1894 Troops Month-long occupation of Bluefields.

CHINA 1894-95 Naval, troops Marines land in Sino-Japanese War

KOREA 1894-96 Troops Marines kept in Seoul during war.

PANAMA 1895 Troops, naval Marines land in Colombian province.

NICARAGUA 1896 Troops Marines land in port of Corinto.

CHINA 1898-1900 Troops Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies.

PHILIPPINES 1898-1910 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos

CUBA 1898-1902 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.

PUERTO RICO 1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, occupation continues.

GUAM 1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still use as base.

NICARAGUA 1898 Troops Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.

SAMOA 1899 (-?) Troops Battle over succession to throne.

NICARAGUA 1899 Troops Marines land at port of Bluefields.

PANAMA 1901-14 Naval, troops Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone 1914.

HONDURAS 1903 Troops Marines intervene in revolution.

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1903-04 Troops U.S. interests protected in Revolution.

KOREA 1904-05 Troops Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.

CUBA 1906-09 Troops Marines land in democratic election.

NICARAGUA 1907 Troops "Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up.

HONDURAS 1907 Troops Marines land during war with Nicaragua

PANAMA 1908 Troops Marines intervene in election contest.

NICARAGUA 1910 Troops Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.

HONDURAS 1911 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.

CHINA 1911-41 Naval, troops Continuous occupation with flare-ups.

CUBA 1912 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.

PANAMA 1912 Troops Marines land during heated election.

HONDURAS 1912 Troops Marines protect U.S. economic interests.

NICARAGUA 1912-33 Troops, bombing 10-year occupation, fought guerillas

MEXICO 1913 Naval Americans evacuated during revolution.

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1914 Naval Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.

MEXICO 1914-18 Naval, troops Series of interventions against nationalists.

HAITI 1914-34 Troops, bombing 19-year occupation after revolts.

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1916-24 Troops 8-year Marine occupation.

CUBA 1917-33 Troops Military occupation, economic protectorate.

WORLD WAR I 1917-18 Naval, troops Ships sunk, fought Germany for 1 1/2 years.

RUSSIA 1918-22 Naval, troops Five landings to fight Bolsheviks

PANAMA 1918-20 Troops "Police duty" during unrest after elections.

HONDURAS 1919 Troops Marines land during election campaign.

YUGOSLAVIA 1919 Troops/Marines intervene for Italy against Serbs in Dalmatia.

GUATEMALA 1920 Troops 2-week intervention against unionists.

TURKEY 1922 Troops Fought nationalists in Smyrna.

CHINA 1922-27 Naval, troops Deployment during nationalist revolt.

HONDURAS 1924-25 Troops Landed twice during election strife.

PANAMA 1925 Troops Marines suppress general strike.

CHINA 1927-34 Troops Marines stationed throughout the country.

EL SALVADOR 1932 Naval Warships send during Marti revolt.

WORLD WAR II 1941-45 Naval, troops, bombing, nuclear Hawaii bombed, fought Japan, Italy and Germay for 3 years; first nuclear war.

IRAN 1946 Nuclear threat Soviet troops told to leave north.

YUGOSLAVIA 1946 Nuclear threat, naval Response to shoot-down of US plane.

URUGUAY 1947 Nuclear threat Bombers deployed as show of strength.

GREECE 1947-49 Command operation U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.

GERMANY 1948 Nuclear Threat Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift.

CHINA 1948-49 Troops/Marines evacuate Americans before Communist victory.

PHILIPPINES 1948-54 Command operation CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.

PUERTO RICO 1950 Command operation Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.

KOREA 1951-53 (-?) Troops, naval, bombing , nuclear threats U.S./So. Korea fights China/No. Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, and against China in 1953. Still have bases.

IRAN 1953 Command Operation CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.

VIETNAM 1954 Nuclear threat French offered bombs to use against seige.

GUATEMALA 1954 Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalized U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.

EGYPT 1956 Nuclear threat, troops Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; Marines evacuate foreigners.

LEBANON l958 Troops, naval Marine occupation against rebels.

IRAQ 1958 Nuclear threat Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.

CHINA l958 Nuclear threat China told not to move on Taiwan isles.

PANAMA 1958 Troops Flag protests erupt into confrontation.

VIETNAM l960-75 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.

CUBA l961 Command operation CIA-directed exile invasion fails.

GERMANY l961 Nuclear threat Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.

LAOS 1962 Command operation Military buildup during guerrilla war.

CUBA l962 Nuclear threat, naval Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union.

IRAQ 1963 Command operation CIA organizes coup that killed president, brings Ba'ath Party to power, and Saddam Hussein back from exile to be head of the secret service.

PANAMA l964 Troops Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.

INDONESIA l965 Command operation Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.

DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66 Troops, bombing Marines land during election campaign.

GUATEMALA l966-67 Command operation Green Berets intervene against rebels.

CAMBODIA l969-75 Bombing, troops, naval Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.

OMAN l970 Command operation U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.

LAOS l971-73 Command operation, bombing U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.

MIDEAST 1973 Nuclear threat World-wide alert during Mideast War.

CHILE 1973 Command operation CIA-backed coup ousts elected marxist president.

CAMBODIA l975 Troops, bombing Gas captured ship, 28 die in copter crash.

ANGOLA l976-92 Command operation CIA assists South African-backed rebels.

IRAN l980 Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution.

LIBYA l981 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.

EL SALVADOR l981-92 Command operation, troops Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash.

NICARAGUA l981-90 Command operation, naval CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.

LEBANON l982-84 Naval, bombing, troops Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions.

GRENADA l983-84 Troops, bombing Invasion four years after revolution.

HONDURAS l983-89 Troops Maneuvers help build bases near borders.

IRAN l984 Jets Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf.

LIBYA l986 Bombing, naval Air strikes to topple nationalist gov't.

BOLIVIA 1986 Troops Army assists raids on cocaine region.

IRAN l987-88 Naval, bombing US intervenes on side of Iraq in war.

LIBYA 1989 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down.

PHILIPPINES 1989 Jets Air cover provided for government against coup.

PANAMA 1989 (-?) Troops, bombing Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.

LIBERIA 1990 Troops Foreigners evacuated during civil war.

SAUDI ARABIA 1990-91 Troops, jets Iraq countered after invading Kuwait. 540,000 troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.

IRAQ 1990-? Bombing, troops, naval Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes; 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; no-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south, large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.

KUWAIT 1991 Naval, bombing, troops Kuwait royal family returned to throne.

LOS ANGELES 1992 Troops Army, Marines deployed against anti-police uprising.

SOMALIA 1992-94 Troops, naval, bombing U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction.

YUGOSLAVIA 1992-94 Naval NATO blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.

BOSNIA 1993-? Jets, bombing No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs.

HAITI 1994 Troops, naval Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.

ZAIRE (CONGO) 1996-97 Troops Marines at Rwandan Hutu refugee camps, in area where Congo revolution begins.

LIBERIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.

ALBANIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.

SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant.

AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.

IRAQ 1998-? Bombing, Missiles Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.

YUGOSLAVIA 1999 Bombing, Missiles Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo. NATO occupation of Kosovo.

YEMEN 2000 Naval USS Cole, docked in Aden, bombed.

MACEDONIA 2001 Troops NATO forces deployed to move and disarm Albanian rebels.

AFGHANISTAN 2001-? Troops, bombing, missiles Massive U.S. mobilization to overthrow Taliban, hunt Al Qaeda fighters, install Karzai regime, and battle Taliban insurgency. More than 30,000 U.S. troops and numerous private security contractors carry our occupation.

YEMEN 2002 Missiles Predator drone missile attack on Al Qaeda, including a US citizen.

PHILIPPINES 2002-? Troops, naval Training mission for Philippine military fighting Abu Sayyaf rebels evolves into combat missions in Sulu Archipelago, west of Mindanao.

COLOMBIA 2003-? Troops US special forces sent to rebel zone to back up Colombian military protecting oil pipeline.

IRAQ 2003-? Troops, naval, bombing, missiles Saddam regime toppled in Baghdad. More than 250,000 U.S. personnel participate in invasion. US and UK forces occupy country and battle Sunni and Shi'ite insurgencies. More than 160,000 troops and numerous private contractors carry out occupation and build large permanent bases.

LIBERIA 2003 Troops Brief involvement in peacekeeping force as rebels drove out leader.

HAITI 2004-05 Troops, naval Marines land after right-wing rebels oust elected President Aristide, who was advised to leave by Washington.

PAKISTAN 2005-? Missiles, bombing, covert operation CIA missile and air strikes and Special Forces raids on alleged Al Qaeda and Taliban refuge villages kill multiple civilians.

SOMALIA 2006-? Missiles, naval, covert operation Special Forces advise Ethiopian invasion that topples Islamist government; AC-130 strikes and Cruise missile attacks against Islamist rebels; naval blockade against "pirates" and insurgents.

SYRIA 2008 Troops Special Forces in helicopter raid 5 miles from Iraq kill 8 Syrian civilians

Today the Americans even now are feeling the impact of their course of action. Massive debt, decreasing employment and now deflation during a recession. That is the legacy of a foreign policy gone off the reservation.

Nonsense...see above...looks to me like the foreign policy is the same as it ever was.

Any questions?

[Oleg Bach]

Berlin wall? - so nice of you to knock it down and put the head back on the Dragon..the Dragon that took up to 1945 to defeat at great human cost...Putting Germany back together was so kind of you - now we have that mishmash call the European union - that is horribly managed and eats it self from within...wonderful work - Ragan "Mr. Gorbicheff, take down that wall" easy for him to say after what the Germans did - and funny how dear Prescott Bush sold arms to his Germanic friends and made a lot of money - and those arms killed Americans also. Let's paint a picture here - Prescott facilitates the death of thousands of American soldiers - takes the profits - installs a son as President - that President installs his son....really can't call that ethical or noble - can you?

[blueblood]

No, I am an American who not only knows his country's history, but actually lived through it. What are your credentials from afar? I don't like to do this in an A-stan thread, but sometimes it's the only way to demonstrate the folly of your thinking:

Partial list of US military interventions since 1890:

SOUTH DAKOTA 1890 (-?) Troops 300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee.

ARGENTINA 1890 Troops Buenos Aires interests protected.

CHILE 1891 Troops Marines clash with nationalist rebels.

HAITI 1891 Troops Black revolt on Navassa defeated.

HAWAII 1893 (-?) Naval, troops Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.

SYRIA 2008 Troops Special Forces in helicopter raid 5 miles from Iraq kill 8 Syrian civilians

Nonsense...see above...looks to me like the foreign policy is the same as it ever was.

Any questions?

It even goes earlier, US marines in Mexico and dealing with Barbary pirates...

Edited December 16, 2008 by blueblood

[Oleg Bach]

Now for the positive - America did not go after the Saudis who financed the attack on New York - and now they refuse to deal with Pakistan who are the real culprits that finacially and politically fuel the Taliban...instead of going after the war lord bankers and provocateurs..they go after the common foot soldier. Pakistan was partitioned off from India so the Islamics could have a homeland - so what the hell is going on with this supposed war on terror and the fright that is Islamic extremism? Instead of going after the father who is instigating the mayhem - we go after the bastard children he sends to Afghanistan! Such cowardice - sure Pakistan has thousands of expats in Canada who operate in disloyality - but that is another issue...they have nukes - and even though they do someone should tell them that we have access to more - but that will not be the solution. The solution should be words - in the form of - stop supporting the terrorist groups that use Paksitan as a base. Enough of this crap - we send men to die and Pakistan is killing them - yet we cuddle up to them - what the hell is the matter with Canada.

[ToadBrother]

Berlin wall? - so nice of you to knock it down and put the head back on the Dragon..the Dragon that took up to 1945 to defeat at great human cost...Putting Germany back together was so kind of you - now we have that mishmash call the European union - that is horribly managed and eats it self from within...wonderful work - Ragan "Mr. Gorbicheff, take down that wall" easy for him to say after what the Germans did - and funny how dear Prescott Bush sold arms to his Germanic friends and made a lot of money - and those arms killed Americans also. Let's paint a picture here - Prescott facilitates the death of thousands of American soldiers - takes the profits - installs a son as President - that President installs his son....really can't call that ethical or noble - can you?

WTF does this have to do with anything? To my mind uniting the two Germanies really weakened the whole. West Germany was a prosperous, liberal country, East Germany a complete basket case. The reunification now means that the West is spending huge bucks just trying to bring the East up to some reasonable level of prosperity.

[ToadBrother]

Now for the positive - America did not go after the Saudis who financed the attack on New York -

I defy you to point to any evidence that shows the Saudis funded 9-11. Yes, they've been exporting their crazies and Islamism, and for that they hopefully some day will be made to pay, but the House of Saud is completely reliant on the US. If the US were to pull out, the Saudis would fall in a heartbeat.

and now they refuse to deal with Pakistan who are the real culprits that finacially and politically fuel the Taliban...instead of going after the war lord bankers and provocateurs..they go after the common foot soldier. Pakistan was partitioned off from India so the Islamics could have a homeland - so what the hell is going on with this supposed war on terror and the fright that is Islamic extremism?

This is an extreme over-simplification of Partition. I will agree with your basic sentiment, that the Partition of India stands with the world wars and the Holocaust as among the most horrifying and damaging events in the 20th century.

Instead of going after the father who is instigating the mayhem - we go after the bastard children he sends to Afghanistan!

I'm lost here. Are we talking about the Saudis, about bin Laden or about Pakistan?

Such cowardice - sure Pakistan has thousands of expats in Canada who operate in disloyality - but that is another issue...they have nukes - and even though they do someone should tell them that we have access to more - but that will not be the solution. The solution should be words - in the form of - stop supporting the terrorist groups that use Paksitan as a base. Enough of this crap - we send men to die and Pakistan is killing them - yet we cuddle up to them - what the hell is the matter with Canada.

Pakistan's nuclear weapons aren't there to threaten us, the weapons are there to threaten India. And what else are we supposed to do in Pakistan? If we don't support the government there, it will inevitably fall and be replaced by some really bad guys.

[DogOnPorch]

You seem to know your history in context, ToadBrother. My hat is off. An old wargamer by chance?

-------------------------------------------------

Rainier Wolfcastle: My new movie is me, standing in front of a brick wall for 90 minutes. It cost 80 million dollars to make.

Jay Sherman: How do you sleep at night?

Rainier Wolfcastle: On top of a pile of money, with many beautiful women.

---The Simpsons

[Oleg Bach]

The House of Saud is very very rich - if they export a brand of extremist Islam - then I am sure the clever little boys there have a way of exporting MONEY to facilitate any terrorist action...don't tell me that the money can not be followed back to Saudi. Secondly even though Pakistinan nukes are pointed at India..The west that has nukes would never dare threaten another nuke nation...It's a case of power - for instance - America threatens Iran at present but would back off the second they had deliverable nukes. As for the kinship that exists between Saudi oil merchants and American ones...both of these sets of merchants are not loyal to their own people but are loyal to each other - If the Bushites knew of fully realized that the Saudis are responsible - to attack them would be to attack themselves. The whole point is...money rules - ethics do not. Pakistan plays all sides..with full force of the Pakistani military they could remove in a short time all the camps harbouring terrorists, that line their boarder..they do not have the will....as if they really care about western interests.

[ToadBrother]

You seem to know your history in context, ToadBrother. My hat is off. An old wargamer by chance?

-------------------------------------------------

Rainier Wolfcastle: My new movie is me, standing in front of a brick wall for 90 minutes. It cost 80 million dollars to make.

Jay Sherman: How do you sleep at night?

Rainier Wolfcastle: On top of a pile of money, with many beautiful women.

---The Simpsons

Nah, just an interested bystander.

[DogOnPorch]

The Soviets had massive amounts of troops and armor in Germany and surrounding areas. Maybe we could have won, but what was left of Europe would have been pounded into the ground. While preliminary plans were allegedly drawn up, and even some British strategists expected there to be an armed conflict with the Russians, the thought of an even longer protracted war, particularly with Russia, was more than anyone could stomach. What would have been the goal? Simply to oust them from Eastern Europe? To overthrow the Communists? Hitler had basically lost the war because he got bogged down in Russia, just like Napoleon had a century earlier. Russia is a very hard place to invade.

I agree, blueblood.

-------------------------------

I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.

---Clint Eastwood