Canadian Laws Need To Change!

[falling leaf]

Today I read about a mother who was raped and died at the hands of a 17 year youth , he then burnt the family home down. They not only lost their mother but the home they lived in for 20 years.

The father wrote a statement for the court.

This should never have happened to any mother in this country.

I feel that a youth of 15 knows, enough about life to realize that rape, and murder are a criminal offence.

We call our country a peaceful nation !

This youth is sentenced and could be out of jail in 4 years.

The family is outraged and so I am I.

Where do we go from here to change the laws, so children do not have to grow up without their mother , and a man doesn't have to move on without his wife..

The Judges in this country should be held accountable for action this youth takes after he gets out of jail.

[Pellaken]

in this case, I'd support the death penalty

people like this should be shot.

[falling leaf]

pellaken

Quote

________

in this case, I'd support the death penalty

people like this should be shot.

______________________

I agree with you pellaken ,this type of crime should get the death penalty

I still wonder why Clifford Olsen is in Jail ,one child was to many to kill!

I also think about Canada's missing children where are the laws to protect them?

Our laws need to change to protect our most dear!

Why pay to keep these criminals in jail getting free tv, porn, and education. $800.00 for sex on the phone!

Have we gone mad.

[Moderate Centrist]

Falling leaf,

This topic is already being addressed in another post - So What Does Canada Do With This Guy?

This crime has no bearing on Canada’s status as a peaceful nation. The story I read suggested that the youth would be eligible for parole in seven years but that seemed unlikely.

Can you state which laws you would change and why? Crimes of this sort are they exception not the rule. In short – the sky is not falling.

This is a failing of human nature – not the law.

As for judges’ accountability in this case – we don’t know when or if this person will be released so let’s hold our condemnation until then.

As for missing children – consider the following:

“In 2002 there were 66,532 children reported missing in Canada.

Stranger:                        35

Accident:                        38

Wandered Off:             594

Parental:                      429

Runaways: 52,390

Unknown: 10,994

Other:                       2,052

Total:                       66,532

These statistics are not cumulative so do not reflect the actual number of children missing in our country. The preceding statistics are provided by the RCMP Missing Children Registry.

Source: http://www.mcsc.ca/search/statistics.asp

For additional information on missing children in Canada check out the RCMP Missing Children site at: http://www.ourmissingchildren.ca/en/sitemap.html

This is a problem which is taken very seriously by those involved. Please notice the small number of abductions conducted by strangers.

Calls to change laws or add more usually come as a reaction to newspaper stories like this.

As unpleasant as it is people do bad things and we must try to stop it where we can, punish it when it happens and accept it as a part of life.

Despite what people think Canada’s prison’s are not a vacation (I know some people who work as prison guards and they paint a slightly different picture).

“A lot of people in Canada are put in jail…

for example, sentences for first degree murder. The average time served in Britain is 14 years, which is the norm throughout Europe and Australia. In Canada the average is 28 years.”

Source: http://www.cbc.ca/prison/letters2.html

For some information on the Canadian prison system check out this site by CBC: http://www.cbc.ca/prison/docs.html#overview

You Can also have a look at corrections Canada: http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/home_e.shtml

In summation: We have not gone mad.

[legamus]

so you think our laws are tough enough moderate centrist? while i don't doubt the prisons are tough, what i do question is the severity of the sentences, especially when the accused is a multiple offender. (sorry, no stats - it's just the general impression i've felt reading articles over the last couple of years - so and so did this; he's already served time for this and this. usually sexual offences.)

[Moderate Centrist]

"it's just the general impression i've felt reading articles over the last couple of years"

Legamus

Please forgive me if I protest changing the laws based on "general impressions" and "reading articles"

I suggest you check out the sites I've mentioned. Study up on the prison system and corrections Canada. Get some information, see what you can find out.

Remember that newspaper articles and media reports offered a poor representation of the overall picture of crime in Canada.

[falling leaf]

Moderate Centist

Quote

________

This crime has no bearing on Canada’s status as a peaceful nation. The story I read suggested that the youth would be eligible for parole in seven years but that seemed unlikely.

If we have the crimes that are going on in this country how can we call our selves a peaceful nation?

As far as missing children go my family knows first hand what it is to have a missing child in Canada.

[Moderate Centrist]

Falling Leaf,

I don't follow your train of thought here. What do you suggest is the solution.

I take it your original point is that the laws must be changed. I ask why and I say no.

Crime has been with us since the dawn of time and will always be with us.

All societies have crime and always will.

Missing Children are a serious issue in Canada. My point was it has little to do with existing laws as the statistics I provided prove - namely that most missing children are runaways.

Again on the original story here:

"Ben Doile, the chair of CAVEAT, the Vancouver-based group Canadian's Against Violence, says the sentence is a travesty"

However it was also later mentioned that,

"Doile says it's unlikely that Vojkovic will get parole in seven years. "

source:http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/03/17/canada/vojkovic040317

Reason, not passion must dictate the development of public policy in Canadian law.

[falling leaf]

If we are a peaceful nation how come we have such things happening in this country?

Rape ,murder, drive by shootings, abuse of children , and women . are not peaceful acts.

Our laws need to be changed to protect all Canadians .

I do not see this happening till a judge , politian, lawyer, or anyone in power loses a loved one .

Missing children , Michael Dunahee for one has been missing a long time! We should bring in some laws to protect them so they do not go missing!

[falling leaf]

This youth is sentenced and could be out of jail in 4 years

The Vancouver Sun had posted 4 years but now it has stated 7 years I am correcting this to 7 years

[Moderate Centrist]

You are still not providing any solutions to this problem.

What laws would you change specfically and how would they prevent rape murder and child abduction?

In the case of missing children how are current laws inadequate since most missing children are runaways.

If Rape ,murder, drive by shootings, abuse of children , and women are your criteria for judging a nation peaceful then consider this:

There has never been and is not now a peaceful nation on the face of the Earth. Furthermore, by your criteria there never will be.

You seem to be making an observation rather than offering any concrete solutions.

I'm sure your concern is genuine but perhaps your outlook is a bit unrealistic.

[falling leaf]

What laws would you change specfically and how would they prevent rape murder and child abduction?

I would bring back the death penalty for murder if it can be proven with DNA testing.

Why should we pay taxes to keep them in Jail?

In the case of missing children how are current laws inadequate since most missing children are runaways

I know most children who are missing are run aways !

But what should we do to protect the young children who go missing because of sexual preditors? One child is to many in that case.

We need tougher laws to keep sexual offenders from entering Canada from other countries.

We have our children and grandchildren to protect!

How would you go about bringing in the right laws in to protect Canadian children?

[Moderate Centrist]

I oppose the Death Penalty for starters.

"Why should we pay taxes to keep them in Jail?"

Falling leaf

Well for starters because it's cheaper than trying to execute them.

Also, people who argue for the Death Penalty to save taxes are really arguing for mass execution.

Check out corrections Canada and have a look at crime statistics. Very few people are in Canadian prisons for capital offenses.

So again whay you're really advocating is the death penalty for common assault, robbery, theft, fraud, drug dealing, domestic abuse and a host of other crimes in which such a punishment would be overkill.

"But what should we do to protect the young children who go missing because of sexual preditors? One child is to many in that case."

Falling leaf

Our laws and justice system are currently doing all that can reasonably be done. Such events are the execption rather than the rule.

"We need tougher laws to keep sexual offenders from entering Canada from other countries."

Falling leaf

Please give us a run down of the current laws and how they are failing us in this respect. Can you also provide some data on how often this happens?

"How would you go about bringing in the right laws in to protect Canadian children? "

Falling leaf

We have laws now to protect Canadian children. In short I would not alter our current laws. Certainly not based on the arguments you've put forward.

[falling leaf]

I now know why we have the laws we have today

People like yourself do not have guts to protect inoccent we will always have murders like the ones we have today because we do not have the death penlty. This country has become to soft!

If we want to protect our country we need to act.

Why has there been no protests about these offenders?

If you had to live with your child or wife murdered you may have a different opinion ,or one of your children missing. :angry:

[Moderate Centrist]

"People like yourself do not have guts to protect inoccent..."

Falling leaf

If it's not broke, don't fix it. That's my view of the criminal justice system.

The country is being protected. I'm not sure about your personal experiences with crime or missing children but perhaps they have influenced your judgement.

I see no reason to change current laws.

And I still do not understand your arguement. You seem to be surprised that crime exists.

"Why has there been no protests about these offenders?"

Just read any of a variety of newspapers across the country and you'll get a large sampling of opinion consistent with yours. Try Alberta's premier tabloid the Calgary Sun - they are obsessed with crime stories.

"If you had to live with your child or wife murdered you may have a different opinion ,or one of your children missing."

Falling leaf

I have never been in this situation so neither one of us can say what I'd do. I would expect the police and the court system to provide justice and restitution to my family.

I'll take this one step further - not only would I not change the current laws I would oppose any such changes. All the more so when they're based on passion rather than reason.

[falling leaf]

I'll take this one step further - not only would I not change the current laws I would oppose any such changes. All the more so when they're based on passion rather than reason.

What do we do with the drug dealers who give drugs to the youth? They kill with the drugs they sell!I guess you are for legalizing marijana as well

Don't tell me its a soft drug they can lace it with other drugs.

So laws should not be changed to protect the inoccent !

It seems to me they have more rights than the rest of us.

Free food, free education, free tv , free porn, free phone sex ( $800.00 a call). and get paid as well...

[August1991]

What do we do with the drug dealers who give drugs to the youth? They kill with the drugs they sell!I guess you are for legalizing marijana as well

I disagree strongly with what you say, FallingLeaf, but I believe fervently in your right to say what you say, including quoting others!

I prefer the Dutch solution. If an act is legal, this does not mean the act is moral (morally good). The law is about what is practicable.

Abortion may be morally bad, but it is impossible to forbid. Any attempt to make abortion illegal will just lead to back street abortions and more death.

The Dutch are right. What is the better good? What is feasible in practice? Marijuana may be bad but it's impossible to forbid it. Be practical.

The perfect is the enemy of the good.

[Moderate Centrist]

"It seems to me they have more rights than the rest of us. Free food, free education, free tv , free porn, free phone sex ( $800.00 a call). and get paid as well..."

Falling Leaf

What is this based on? Can you source this?

I have been able to obtain the following information:

"Contrary to popular myth, offenders do not have more rights than the average citizen."

corrections Canada website.

The average annual cost to incarcerate someone was as follows:

Men "$66,381

Women $110,473 "

source:http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/faits/facts07-content03_e.shtml

Prisoners have the following services available to them:

"Literacy Programs, Cognitive Skills Training,Living Skills,  Sex Offender Treatment Programs, Substance Abuse Intervention, Family Violence Programs, Violence Prevention Program "

Source: http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/faits/facts0...ntent06_e.shtml

"Federal inmates may earn from $5.25 to $6.90 per day in an institution, depending on their performance on-the-job or in programming. Unemployed inmates receive an allowance of $1 or $2.50 per day."

source:http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/faits/facts07-content06_e.shtml

I was not able to find any information suggesting prisoners have the right to free porn and free phone sex.

Please provide a source to verify this claim.

[Bullmax]

Being a police officer Falling leaf, I can definitely understand your frustration regarding the system and it's outcomes.

I agree with Moderate Centrist on one point that being we don't need to change laws. What we need to do is enforce the ones we have and hand out the proper punishment, which is not occurring on a regular basis in our system today.

I wish there were ways to protect our children but there isn't. There are predators out there who don't care. Alot of people think we need to help them. Not me, especially pedophiles.

We continuously argue back and forth on how we should incarcerate individuals and how to treat them with programs within so when they get out they will be wonderful people.

They won't. (A small minority will but in general, no.)

On a regular basis I have dealt with adults and Young Offenders with "Rap Sheets" three to four pages long.

That would be say 60 to 100 charges. Some are stayed, some are dismissed but most are convictions.

I also dream that after they have done their time in prison they are released with a new lease on life. They are not.

You have to understand they come from a bad situation and don't care if they go to jail. Alot of their friends are there and some relatives.

We ourselves would care if we went to jail cause we have people we love, a job, friends a nice house/apartment and most of all have a sense of what's right and wrong.

We continue to argue whether capital punishment is a deterent or if it is cheaper.

Myself being for Capital Punishment we have to stop arguing any of those points. It's about ridding our society of evil.

If one thinks alot of these serial offenders just need a chance, no problem we will send them to their house to play with their kids and hang out with their spouse.

Others against Capital Punishment look at statistics from other Countries and say, "They have Capital Punishment and it hasn't stopped crime there".

That's the point. If Death is a punishment and they still commit crimes what else are you going to do. Those individuals will not stop no matter what. We have a varity of people on earth and some are just evil.

We have to rid ourselves of serious serial offenders, 30 years, no probation or the Death Penalty.

As for assaults, theft etc I have no problem with alternative measures, probation, small amount of jail time or community service if the crime and person fit.

But if you do three Break and Enters, go to jail, get out do another six, get one year and then get out and do another 5 its time to send you away for good.

Not only do I not want him to break into my house, I actually dont want him to break in to your's or the single senior's home and have her so terrified she doesnt go out of the house anymore. I see it first hand.

We all look for the magic pill and want the answer when usually its right there in front of us.

We are either to scared to do it because of what some special interest groups or foreign countries will say or we really dont want to (and I'm not going to say stop crime) get rid of persons that cause us pain and loss. (Not including ex-wives)

I would be in favor for Capital Punishment and 5 strikes your out, two more than California. (I'm soft that way, must be Canadian)

[Moderate Centrist]

The vast majority of Canadian prisoners are not eligible for capital punishment and wouldn't be in any civilized society.

For those who wish to "save tax payers" dollars ask yourselves:

Are you willing to execute the almost 11,000 prisoners who are imprisoned for non-capital crimes?

As of April 29th, 2001 there were 12,815 prisoners in Federal or provincial institutions. Of these only 647 or 5% were serving time for first degree murder. Source: http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/faits/facts0...ent05_e.shtml#2

In almost every conversation I've ever had regarding crime the participants were reacting to newspaper stories and not federal statistics, police information or any credible research.

Newspapers offer an exagerated picture of crime. In part due to long term coverage of solitary crime stories which have a high degree of public interest.

The public ends up with the perception that society has gone to hell because the Paul Bernardos and Robert Pickton's are in the news for months if not years on end.

Crime(and we're largely speaking of violent crime here) affects a minority of Canadians.

There is little or no condolence that can be offered to victims of violent crime especially in the case of violent rape or murder.

The system we have now is about the best in the world. Perhaps we haven't got it exactly right but nobody else has either.

Child abduction, abuse, sexual assault, rape, and murder mostly occur within families or close social groups. The "stranger" lurking in the dark waiting to attack and victimize the innocent has little to do with reality.

Just because the newspapers mention a story in which the accused seems to be handed a light sentence - this doesn't mean all judges are lenient or all criminals are running free.

Many newspaper stories may lead with a headline claiming a lenient sentence. Read further into many columns and you often find additional information clarifying the sentence and even contradicting the story's own headline.

I won't point fingers but some posters on this site have posted inaccurate information on sentencing when discussing crime stories.

Using basic common sense greatly diminishes the chances you'll ever be victimized by violent crime.

If things were really as bad as some members of the public and our ever opportunist politicians would have us believe we wouldn't have society we'd have anarchy.

[falling leaf]

Are you willing to execute the almost 11,000 prisoners who are imprisoned for non-capital crimes?

This is a very stupid statement!

Using basic common sense greatly diminishes the chances you'll ever be victimized by violent crime.

So is this one! The violent crime can happen to anyone anywhere anytime! If you were in this kind of trouble you would not stop and use commom sense! I think you would fight for your life! Common sense has nothing to do with it. ( if a man is going to sexually abuse a child or a someone rapes a woman , that man will not stop and use common sense.

[Moderate Centrist]

Falling leaf,

The bulk of prisoners are not eligible for capital punishment. That was the point of my previous figure.

By the time to factor in the legal costs and time involved to execute someone you've cost the system a lot more money for little or no gains.

Common sense plays a huge party in protecting yourself from violent crime as almost anyone in law enforcement or criminology will tell you.

Examples:

For women - avoiding dangerous parts of town, not walking home alone, not drinking to much when the go out and/or avoiding the use of recreational drugs. Tell someone where you're going and when you'll be back. Make sure people you may associate with know this.

Basic home safety - keep doors and windows locked when not at home, have neighbors check up on your property when you're on vacation.

Don't involve yourself directly in physical confrontations you may witness in public - call the police or have someone else deal with it. Stay away from bars or night clubs which are know trouble spots.

Avoid abusing drugs and alcohol. Stay away from people who do. Don't get involved with people who sell drugs - even small amounts of dope.

Always be aware of your surroundings when you travel or go out at night.

Contact the police if someone is stalking, making threats, misusing firearms. Follow their advice or the advice of a lawyer in these situations - specifically here - the unpleasant end of a relationship.

These are some basic tips which anyone interested in crime prevention is sure to have heard.

Now admittedly there is also a "wrong place wrong time" element to violent crime.

However in the case of rape, sexual assault and child molestation this is rarely the norm as it happens mostly within families and close social groups. Most victims are intimately known to their assailants.

The problems here are much more complex - in many cases involving broken homes, alcohol, drug and domestic abuse.

As I've stated before - there are plenty of laws which can punish crime but fewer that can prevent it 100%.

Falling leaf - your points on this matter have largely consisted of rants which perhaps demonstrate a genuine concern about crime but little else.

I've asked you for sources to back up your claims and you haven't provided them. Your only point is that the law needs to change. I see no reason for this and still don't.

My position is not illegitimate or unreasonable. You haven't made your case to me so I'll stick with my current opinion.