Is Canada heading into Civil War?

[wulf42]

Ah, I take it your time in the military was a cook or something.

Just concerned that you might be an offender of some sort intent on doing harm but as you say, you're more a passive aggressive type. As long as we don't turn our backs on you, we won't likely be struck.

My time in the Infantry was combat....and again the only violence i was ever involved was the occasional bar scuffle when i was younger

who hasn't?

[madmax]

WHOOPS

DELETED>

Edited December 2, 2008 by madmax

[wulf42]

Everybody,

Stop the baiting and personal attacks.

Play the ball and not the person. Discuss the topic off the thread or do not post at all.

Ch. A.

noted.........the same people attack me every time almost on every post, however i will fully abide by the rules.

[guyser]

and i do not support violence in anyway

Deleted by choice.

Edited December 2, 2008 by guyser

[wulf42]

Except you support death by firing squad.

now what are you talking about??? where in this thread did i say that.............lol?

[guyser]

now what are you talking about??? where in this thread did i say that.............lol?

Never mind, normally one remembers what the post.

Edited December 2, 2008 by guyser

[Argus]

I see no prospect of large scale violence in the near to medium term.

However, I have to say I'm troubled by the level of vitriol, and outright hatred that is being evidenced here and in other places. It's reminiscent of the way the US has become more and more divided over the years between the "reds" and the "blues" and it's not healthy for a democratic state.

[guyser]

However, I have to say I'm troubled by the level of vitriol, and outright hatred that is being evidenced here and in other places. It's reminiscent of the way the US has become more and more divided over the years between the "reds" and the "blues" and it's not healthy for a democratic state.

Got to agree with that.

Probably the worst aspect is the polarization of the country, west vs east.

Would a charismatic leader be able to overcome the biases ? (regardless of party)

IOW, could Alberta vote for a Liberal headed by a charismatic Quebecor?

Could Ontario vote for a Con from the west ?

[kimmy]

Got to agree with that.

Probably the worst aspect is the polarization of the country, west vs east.

Would a charismatic leader be able to overcome the biases ? (regardless of party)

Could Ontario vote for a Con from the west ?

Ontario just did, 2 months ago.

could Alberta vote for a Liberal headed by a charismatic Quebecor?

Can you define "charismatic"? To Albertans, a "charismatic" Quebec leader might be one that's not openly hostile. The bar is not set particularly high...

Trudeau was allegedly charismatic (though, I am not old enough to know first-hand.) However I don't think that needs any discussion.

Some might consider Chretien charismatic, but he was also outright hostile to Alberta. I don't think there needs to be any discussion of why Albertans just didn't go for Chretien either.

Paul Martin was not particularly charismatic, but could have certainly been accepted by Albertans. He said all the right things... before Sponsorship broke big, there was optimism that he would be the guy who could change everything for Liberals in the west. (remember talk of "Paulberta"?) Paul Martin said when he became PM that "No matter what else I do as prime minister, if (western) alienation is the same as it is at the end of my term as it is now, I will not believe I have succeeded." But ultimately, Alberta was furious with what Sponsorship represented, and Paul was an ineffective Prime Minister, and when push came to shove, Paul Martin was standing on that platform applauding while Buzz Hargrove denounced Harper for being from "out there".

I don't think anybody except Mrs Dion considers Stephane Dion to be charismatic. I also don't think anybody anticipated that enough Centers For Wind-Powered Scooter Innovation would be springing up in Alberta to offset the economic damage that would have resulted from Dion's anti-energy policies. I don't think you can chalk up Alberta's dislike for the Dion experience to "bias" so much as "self preservation instinct." I also don't think the word "bias" really fits when nobody else voted for the guy either.

I think my dad is kind of an everyman type, so maybe I read more into his views than I ought to. But for my dad, it was not Trudeau or Chretien that finished it, but Mulroney. There was a decades old feeling that the province had never been respected or represented in Ottawa, of which Trudeau was really just the most recent and flagrant representation. Trudeau might have screwed us, but he was never "our guy" to start with. People like my dad thought Mulroney was "our guy", and as I hear it there were parties when he was elected. And he delivered, at least for a while. But with the F18 maintenance contract, and then with the Meech Lake Accord, he showed what his real priority was, and that feeling of betrayal was what resulted in the devastation of 1993. So many people now firmly convinced that the Liberals and Progressive Conservatives would both sell us out if it was politically expedient with respect to winning votes in Central Canada. So many people were completely finished the old line parties and Preston Manning suddenly seemed like a hero. A lot of what Preston Manning said about representation and grassroots democracy and fiscal responsibility resonated with Albertans, but ultimately I believe that the biggest appeal was that this was not a Central Canada operation just cruising through to drop off some brochures and pick up some backbenchers. Preston Manning was not some crook from "out there" to scam us with some easily-broken promises, he was our guy, coming from "out here" to go tell the rest of the country what we want for once. Preston Manning and his original platform have gone by the wayside over the years, but the essential feeling that this was *our* voice, one we could always trust, remains.

I am not sure if people from "out there" understand this aspect of it. I think maybe people "out there" think that Albertans have supported Reform/Alliance/CPC because they love guns, hate frogs, love Jeeezus, hate fags, love pickup trucks, hate swarthy people, etc. No. That stuff might resonate with some portion of rural voters, but the landslide victories in Edmonton and Calgary every election don't come from that stuff, it comes from the fundamental feeling that this *is* our party, that we've finally found a representative in Ottawa that isn't going to sell us out if it's handy to win votes in Quebec.

What would it take for Albertans to choose the Liberals over the Conservatives? I think two things. First off, a Liberal leader and platform that Albertans considered credible and not hostile. Secondly, it would require Albertans to decide that the CPC is no different from the old PCs or the Liberals.

-k

[BC_chick]

Kimmy, that was a fantastic post.

I had a discussion last night on this forum with an Albertan (no names mentioned) who was claiming to be sick and tired of Alberta being sold out for Quebec. Seeing how I often get the same Quebec-bashing argument as a reason to not support the LPC out here in BC, I did what I usually do and I asked what exactly Harper has done differently in regards to pandering to Quebec. To my surprise, he honestly answered not much even though there was hope for a while. I was happy to see a Westerner admit that much and I asked why we don't stick to the issues then since it appears Quebec will hold Canada ransom no matter who is in charge...

Yet you explained things perfectly, I never thought of it in the way you said it. I always equated Quebec-pandering to be mutually exclusive with Western representation in the eyes of CPC supporters.

I understand now - what you're saying is that Quebec holds the country hostage no matter what.... but within this conundrum that faces us as a nation, at least the West is also represented when there is a conservative government.

[William Ashley]

This is a very dangerous time for this country what we are seeing happening now is going to result in nothing good! When party leaders side

with French separatists expect trouble to come in some form!

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/83542

GROW UP.

TOTAL BS.

[kimmy]

Kimmy, that was a fantastic post.

I always equated Quebec-pandering to be mutually exclusive with Western representation in the eyes of CPC supporters.

I understand now - what you're saying is that Quebec holds the country hostage no matter what.... but within this conundrum that faces us as a nation, at least the West is also represented when there is a conservative government.

That's not exactly what I was hoping to get across...

First, on Quebec "pandering"... us two had a discussion on this a while back. What I tried to express on that issue is the idea that what Quebec wants, and what Alberta wants, are not actually different or incompatible at all. It's just 2 things: respect, and the feeling of being "maitres chez nous" as the long-standing Quebec slogan puts it. The aspirations of both provinces are more compatible with Harper's decentralized view of confederation than with the traditional Liberal view of strong central government with big national everything.

I think autonomy and respect for provincial jurisdiction are ideas that people basically get. When Gilles Duceppe says "we don't want a national daycare plan, we have our own daycare plan that we're very proud of," this is what he's expressing. It's the reason why the phrase "opt out" started entering the Liberal lexicon after Chretien went the way of the dodo.

The other issue, "respect", is harder to pin down. Like wtf does that even mean? I am sure that if you ask any MP in Ottawa whether they respect any particular province, of course they will answer yes. So what is this? Just some touchy feely whiny crap? I will try to elaborate.

I think in the sphere of human relationships, one of the most destructive forces is the feeling that one is less important than another.

Whether it's the belief that your parents love your sibling more than they love you, or that your boyfriend still loves his ex more than he loves you, or that your co-worker is critical and you are expendable, or that your skin color or gender have deprived you of an opportunity that was available to someone else... probably much of the conflict in the world can be traced to someone's belief that they have been unfairly given lower status than others.

The Mulroney gang awarded the F18 maintenance contract to a Montreal firm even though a Winnipeg firm entered a superior bid. What message did that send? "Sorry, Quebec's interests come first." Sorry, Manitoba, but you're less important.

When the Chretien gang said that auto manufacturers would have carte-blanche exemption from Kyoto targets, what message did that send?

That's just a couple of examples, I think the point is straightforward. When politicians make it clear that some provinces have higher status in their eyes than others, it can't help but create resentment in the rest. That resentment, building up for years over a variety of issues, is what ultimately finished both the Liberals and the Progressive Conservatives in Western Canada.

How can the Liberals change that perception? beats me. A leader who understands the extent to which the western provinces depend on resources and transportation would be a great start.

I don't think Dion's Green Shit platform helped, when it provided no credible explanation of how the economic damage from his anti-energy policies would be remedied in the west.

I don't think the new coalition, which will have almost no representatives between Kenora and Vancouver, is going to help either.

-k

[Donaill]

Kind of makes you wonder why us East Coast "bums and thieves" dont feel alienated by the West. Respect is given in return for respect.

[ThatGuy]

Civil war,

[Alberta_Blue]

Kind of makes you wonder why us East Coast "bums and thieves" dont feel alienated by the West. Respect is given in return for respect.

The East coast has done nothing but alienate the west with all their accusations about our oil sands, our pollution, our taxes, the fact that people are moving from out east to the west for a better life, so we are "stealing" their able and skilled workforce

yet we sit here and pay billions of dollars to the federal government, the most out of any province, with the least amount of population of the the big 4 provinces population wise. and still you want more from us

and then on top of wanting to take all of our money and resources, you're telling us how to run our businesses and how to run our taxes

we are tired of the east telling us what to do and how to do it, harper was the best thing for the eastern provinces to have in government to stop a western separist movement, now with this insane action done by the liberals, ndp, and block you have alienated the west, for what could be the last time

there is an extremely strong sense of anger towards the liberals, the ndp, and anyone out east that supports this movement, and i would not be surprised if you see the west try and have a separtist movement... and i for one, would be all for it

[Alta4ever]

The East coast has done nothing but alienate the west with all their accusations about our oil sands, our pollution, our taxes, the fact that people are moving from out east to the west for a better life, so we are "stealing" their able and skilled workforce

yet we sit here and pay billions of dollars to the federal government, the most out of any province, with the least amount of population of the the big 4 provinces population wise. and still you want more from us

and then on top of wanting to take all of our money and resources, you're telling us how to run our businesses and how to run our taxes

we are tired of the east telling us what to do and how to do it, harper was the best thing for the eastern provinces to have in government to stop a western separist movement, now with this insane action done by the liberals, ndp, and block you have alienated the west, for what could be the last time

there is an extremely strong sense of anger towards the liberals, the ndp, and anyone out east that supports this movement, and i would not be surprised if you see the west try and have a separtist movement... and i for one, would be all for it

The AGM for the Western Seperation Party is Saturday.

[Alberta_Blue]

The AGM for the Western Seperation Party is Saturday.

i'd like to attend, do you know where its being held?

[guyser]

yet we sit here and pay billions of dollars to the federal government, the most out of any province,

Someones not checking their facts.

[guyser]

i'd like to attend, do you know where its being held?

Chateau Frontenac , Quebec City.

[M.Dancer]

Chateau Frontenac , Quebec City.

Chambre Place D'armes

[seabee]

Civil war?

When the question was first raised, I thought not, but then today I read this:Link here.

[kimmy]

Kind of makes you wonder why us East Coast "bums and thieves" dont feel alienated by the West. Respect is given in return for respect.

It is evident from the words and deeds of your representatives, and comments posted on message boards like this one, that many of you already do.

I believe the phrase you're searching for is "eastern creeps and bums".

2Ralph Klein was mayor of Calgary at the time, and was assessing the cause of rising crime in Calgary. He attributed it to the influx of people looking for work in Calgary's booming economy of the day. Politically incorrect language aside, he was more or less on the money... and not a lot has actually changed...

Both the victim and the man charged with the murder in Old Strathcona early Sunday morning had recently come to Edmonton to look for work. The story of what actually happened is convoluted and contradictory, but one thing is clear: the young men coming to Edmonton and Calgary every month, looking for work, are not (understatement alert) doing much that is positive for our communities.

(...)

Bring us your violent and your angry, your mean and your stupid, your dropouts. We will pay them "$10,000 a month" and, when they get drunk and kill each other, write columns about them. http://communities.canada.com/edmontonjour...tive-class.aspx

Substitute "eastern creeps and bums" for angry, mean, stupid dropouts of unspecified geographic origin, and it's pretty much the same story.

I think the example you're really looking for is "let the eastern bastards freeze in the dark"... I think the historical context of that one is well known too.

Anyway, I've gone on at some length trying to explain the chip on the shoulder that's a prominent feature of Alberta politics (and the rest of the prairies to some degree.)

And I think it should be made clear that it is not just the National Energy Policy that launched it. You can go back to the late 19th century and look at the racist attitudes Canadians had towards the peoples who were recruited to Canada to populate the prairies, and work from there. It's a long history of the region being shown through policies (if not words) that it is of lesser importance than Central Canada.

-k

[capricorn]

Seabee, here's the Conservative MP's letter that your French article refers to.

http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/2008/957.htm

The letter asks gun owners to oppose the coalition. I fail to see what this has to do with civil war.

How did you come to the conclusion that it is related to civil war?

[M.Dancer]

Civil war?

When the question was first raised, I thought not, but then today I read this:Link here.

It would seem then this civil (read Polite) war will be fought with pens...

[seabee]

Seabee, here's the Conservative MP's letter that your French article refers to.

http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/2008/957.htm

The letter asks gun owners to oppose the coalition. I fail to see what this has to do with civil war.

How did you come to the conclusion that it is related to civil war?

Thanks for giving an english text.

I don't think this is an immediate appeal for civil war. But I'm a bit worried when "gun owners" are asked to gather for a cause, however inoffensive the cause be at first, because it could escalate in actually using guns. Or at least a few sympathisers might think so. And in a tense political climate, as what we are living now, one assassination attempt could be enough to trigger a civil war.

I don't see a civil war on the horizon now. But seeing how tense it is, one better thread carefully.

And I agree; it should be fought with pens.

Edited December 3, 2008 by seabee