A pretext of this coup was that the country was

[jdobbin]

Not one piece of legislation will pass the house without Gilles Duceppe's approval.

The only bills that require approval are money bills. The rest are not confidence measures and the Bloc can vote the way they want.

The question is whether the Tories will vote down all measures or if they will vote in favour of some of them.

[fellowtraveller]

kimmy, the Bloc is not going to be part of this government either. You are misrepresenting.

In 2004 Harper signed a document along with Jack Layton and Gilles Duceppe. What's different?

IO do wish the Liberal loyal would stop singing the nonsense that the Bloc are not part of the coalition.

It implies that every adult in the country is stupid, that they cannot see the evidence in front of them.

Of course the Bloc is part of it, but the Liberal/NDP songsheet you and jdobbin sing from is desperate to pretend that the Libs/NDP have not opened their kimonos to a party that would splinter the country. Nobody wants to talk about it, yesterday through nu\merous newcasts the CBC never mentioned the Bloc or Duceppe at all.

Despite the contempt implicit in that, Canduians are not fooled. Some are willing to play along because of their hate for Harper, but many can see what is plain to see.

Jdobbin, in this thread alone you've come with a few lame excuses for the coup: Harper hinself, the economy, saving the nation fropm something undefined out there, but I have yet to see you approach the truth. The three party coaltion is doing this because they can, it is within the rules, a naked power grab , it is possible. Man up and admit it.

They were rejected at the ballot box, now they are taking it through the back door. so to speak.

[myata]

You guys will have to document that for me, then.

My recollection is that the Conservatives could hardly wait to get to the polls, being of the belief that fury over Adscam would lead to defeat for the Liberals.

-k

Here's a link to the text of the letter to then GG Adrienne Clarkson: Steele's blog on Globe&Mail. The source is a blog, but given information in it, it shouldn't be too hard to find a more formal reference. Boag on CBC TV quoted similar text.

[jdobbin]

They were rejected at the ballot box, now they are taking it through the back door. so to speak.

Fine. The Opposition wants power because they don't want the Conservatives to have it. The law backs them up on that and they have reasons valid enough to call confidence.

The Bloc is part of it on money bills for the next year.

Man up and tell me how Harper didn't miscalculate. The Liberals had no intention of being part of a coalition but Harper extends his arm for a handshake a week before and then uses it as leverage to kill you in the balls. If it had been one kick in the balls, it might have been forgivable but Harper's jackass penchant for kicking people in the balls in hardwired.

[fellowtraveller]

Fine. The Opposition wants power because they don't want the Conservatives to have it. The law backs them up on that and they have reasons valid enough to call confidence.

What an ignorant liar you are.

"reasons valid"!!!!

Six weeks ago Canada endorsed Harper with a new and larger mandate.

Harper overplayed his hand by threatening to cut off the party welfare cheques. Your boys didn't like it and have made a pact with the deevil to get what Candians rejected. Simple as that.

Turn the page on your songsheet, the page where you list the silly excuses is getting sodden with your spittle.

[jdobbin]

What an ignorant liar you are.

Yes, there is that anger we are so used to. Planning on threatening violence now?

"reasons valid"!!!!

Guess that is up to the Governor General whom you already are attacking.

Six weeks ago Canada endorsed Harper with a new and larger mandate.

A minority mandate dependent on confidence. Harper lost that with the big kick to the nether reasons that he thought was a priority over economic needs.

Harper overplayed his hand by threatening to cut off the party welfare cheques. Your boys didn't like it and have made a pact with the deevil to get what Candians rejected. Simple as that.

Turn the page on your songsheet, the page where you list the silly excuses is getting sodden with your spittle.

As far as I can see, the argument is "It's not fair!"

[Argus]

Harper's obsession is what the trumps the economy and his party. His single bloodymindedness on going to an election and getting a majority cannot be underestimated.

Of all the people last two years who swore up and down that Harper would not call an election himself had actually voted against the man like they said they would, I would not be insisting it was his strategy again this time.

Fine. Whatever. I can see one of the ways Harper miscalculated. One, he thought what passes for a brain trust at the Liberal Party was smarter than they clearly are. He thought they would surely see that a coallition like this could lead to their complete destruction. But he also underestimated just how many people on the left hate, loath and despise him, and how that affected the thinking of Liberals.

I can't, for the life of me think of anything Harper has done which in any way justifies the kind of hate I see often enough around here. There have been no particularly controversial or ruthless pieces of legislation which have caused anyone any particular misery. The things I see the left howling about here are, in almost every case, minor versions of the same things other governments have done with hardly a murmur. He has not been a "neo con" or whatever other brainless appellation the idiot crew care to place upon him. If anything, he has ruled as if the Progressive Conservatives swallowed the Alliance and not the reverse.

But the hatred of people like you is so pathological it has blinded you to everything else. I'm not even sure you don't realize the danger of what you're doing, and that you simply don't care. If it means the end of the Liberal Party - so be it. Whatever it takes to destroy Stephen Harper. Whatever will give you that momentary rush of victory before the long, slow, inevitable death of your party at the hands of its coallition partners.

[BC_chick]

I can't, for the life of me think of anything Harper has done which in any way justifies the kind of hate I see often enough around here. There have been no particularly controversial or ruthless pieces of legislation which have caused anyone any particular misery. The things I see the left howling about here are, in almost every case, minor versions of the same things other governments have done with hardly a murmur. He has not been a "neo con" or whatever other brainless appellation the idiot crew care to place upon him. If anything, he has ruled as if the Progressive Conservatives swallowed the Alliance and not the reverse.

People equally 'hate' Layton and Dion.

[Slim MacSquinty]

You know if I was Harper, I would give them my head like they ask for, step down as leader, go back to Calgary to a heroes welcome, take a job in the oil patch for double my present salary and watch the whole friggin thing burn.

Why put up with a bashing from a couple of egg headed pipsqueeks like Dion and Layton, and all their mindless cronies.

Not since Trudeau has a federal leader been so reviled by a segment of the people, however unlike Trudeau what Harper takes is unjustified and is simply the fabrication of timid theocrats of the left.

THe Harperless Tories would likely win a majority in the next election simply based on the disgust level of the majority of the population.

[jdobbin]

Fine. Whatever. I can see one of the ways Harper miscalculated. One, he thought what passes for a brain trust at the Liberal Party was smarter than they clearly are.

Harper's intention was to destroy the Liberals before the next election. Period. His hyperpartisan style focused obsessively on how to do this. That was his miscalculation. The coalition for the Liberals is survival to get the time the party needs to get a leader and reorganize.

There was no way that Harper wanted the Liberals to get a new leader and policy platform for the next election. No way. And that isn't hatred in saying that. It is knowing how he plays the game of politics.

Edited December 3, 2008 by jdobbin

[Slim MacSquinty]

People equally 'hate' Layton and Dion

I disagree, the right may at times hate what they do but do not hate the individuals, there is some hatred of the Liberal party based on the way they have ruled with impunity and their sense of entitlement.

There are many on the left however who can barely contain their anger at the mention of his name.

[BC_chick]

THe Harperless Tories would likely win a majority in the next election simply based on the disgust level of the majority of the population.

I've been googling the news for polling figures to see how Canadians feel about the coalition, but I can't find any. Are you making a presumption or do you have actual knowledge of what you say bolded above?

[Smallc]

People equally 'hate' Layton and Dion

I disagree, the right may at times hate what they do but do not hate the individuals, there is some hatred of the Liberal party based on the way they have ruled with impunity and their sense of entitlement.

There are many on the left however who can barely contain their anger at the mention of his name.

As an observer who has supported both sides, I can truly say that there is a lot of hate on both sides. The words liberal or socialist causes right wing people to spit, where the conservatism and its leaders causes anger and fear in liberals.

[BC_chick]

People equally 'hate' Layton and Dion

I disagree, the right may at times hate what they do but do not hate the individuals, there is some hatred of the Liberal party based on the way they have ruled with impunity and their sense of entitlement.

There are many on the left however who can barely contain their anger at the mention of his name.

I don't see 'hate' for Harper either, just disdain, disapproval, and resentment. OTOH even though 'hate' is too strong a word, the things being said about Dion and Layton are way out of line and grossly over exaggerated.

You see the reverse where you guys are just showing your disapproval and we hate Harper.

That's my point, we are all looking at it from through the lens of our own personal biases.

[Slim MacSquinty]

The words liberal or socialist causes right wing people to spit

I think you prove my point, I somewhat agree that your point of view certainly colours your opinion, however Harper gets a much bigger negative response than conservative (unless of course you use the two words together).

[BC_chick]

The words liberal or socialist causes right wing people to spit

I think you prove my point, I somewhat agree that your point of view certainly colours your opinion, however Harper gets a much bigger negative response than conservative (unless of course you use the two words together).

He's not just a conservative, he's a governing conservative. The last time we had one of those was ages ago... maybe your memory's just a little foggy?

[Argus]

As an observer who has supported both sides, I can truly say that there is a lot of hate on both sides. The words liberal or socialist causes right wing people to spit, where the conservatism and its leaders causes anger and fear in liberals.

That's nonsense. The words Socialist and Liberal do not raise any kind of bogeyman in me. I don't dislike either ideology in theory. My problem with the socialists is their general economic malfeasance and habit of social engineering, and the Liberals - here in Canada - their self serving nature, dishonesty, and smug sense of moral superiority. But generally when I see right wingers decrying the Liberals or NDP it's based on a belief that their policies are unworkable. When I see the left howling about the conservatives it often assumes a moral tone, in that they actually believe conservatives are evil in some way, that they "hate the poor", that they "want to destroy the health care system" that they're racists and bigots and homophobes and misogynists, etc. etc.

I put it to you there is a difference between believing your political opposites are dumb busybodies, and thinking your political opposites are evil and cruel.

[Argus]

People equally 'hate' Layton and Dion.

Nonsense. I never see the kinds of ludicrous statements about Dion and Layton I see repeatedly about Harper. I am one of the most critical of both of them, and I would not suggest for even a moment that they are evil, or want to destroy Canada, or hand us over to another government, but we've seen those kinds of statements made repeatedly here. Didn't I read some moron only the other day suggesting Harper wanted the economy to fail so poor people would die? And that was why he wanted to destroy the health care system, too? No one projects that kind of crap onto Layton and Dion.

[Slim MacSquinty]

I've been googling the news for polling figures to see how Canadians feel about the coalition, but I can't find any. Are you making a presumption or do you have actual knowledge of what you say bolded above?

They interviewed a couple of polsters on the CBC tonight despite there being no official polls, the concensus appeared to be in favour of the Tories.

Personally, at work today people who I would deem generally apathetic or mildly left were bewildered and felt the election decided the government not deals behind the scenes. Most folks don't take a lot of interest in politics and probably have no great knowledge or interest in the rules, I sense they think its manipulating the rules to get power and don't like it, they want to think the world is fair, this doesn't strike them as fair.

[noahbody]

There are many on the left however who can barely contain their anger at the mention of his name.

That's because the left attracts emotional people. And anger is an emotion.

[Smallc]

That's because the left attracts emotional people. And anger is an emotion.

Ok, stop right there. From what I have observed, the right has a monopoly on anger the majority of the time.

[BC_chick]

Nonsense. I never see the kinds of ludicrous statements about Dion and Layton I see repeatedly about Harper. I am one of the most critical of both of them, and I would not suggest for even a moment that they are evil, or want to destroy Canada, or hand us over to another government, but we've seen those kinds of statements made repeatedly here. Didn't I read some moron only the other day suggesting Harper wanted the economy to fail so poor people would die? And that was why he wanted to destroy the health care system, too? No one projects that kind of crap onto Layton and Dion.

Taliban Jack wants to spit on soldier's graves by destroying everything we've accomplished in Afghanistan (for wanting to talk with the Taliban?). Liberals want to destroy the nuclear family and bring in bestiality (for supporting SSM?). Then there's the guy on the other thread talking about firing squads and stuff.

Both sides have 'em.... best to just ignore them.

[Wild Bill]

I've been googling the news for polling figures to see how Canadians feel about the coalition, but I can't find any. Are you making a presumption or do you have actual knowledge of what you say bolded above?

Here's the link to my Bell Sympatico server home page:

http://sympatico.msn.ca/

Scroll down the left side till you come to their voting poll of 'question of the day'. If you read my post before it changes tomorrow you'll see their question about how Canadians feel about the coalition. It is not truely scientific but Sympatico serves a LOT of people! The results show well over 60,000 people have voted and about 60% are dead against the coalition. Only 21% at present are in support.

Apparently there is a similar simple poll at ctv.ca, with similar results.

[Smallc]

Here's the link to my Bell Sympatico server home page:

A real poll.

[Slim MacSquinty]

CityTV in Toronto did a similar one with similar results about 60 to 40 against the coalition.

And that's in squishy pink left Toronto.

Edited December 3, 2008 by Slim MacSquinty