SHOULD Canada break up?

Wilber · November 30, 2008

As I have said before, an elected senate would pervert the purpose of the Canadian senate.

Which is? The purpose of the Senate is already perverted. The party in power packs any vacancies with their own supporters. That is their purpose. Make it accountable or get rid of it because it is the source of a lot of discontent in this country by its very existence in its present form..

Wilber · November 30, 2008

A lot of problems would be solved if Alberta did seperate, though....

A lot of westerners would say the same about Quebec.

bush_cheney2004 · November 30, 2008

A lot of westerners would say the same about Quebec.

So would a lot in Quebec! :lol:

LesterDC · November 30, 2008

Senate reform is such a non-issue. It's fine the way it is.

Which is? The purpose of the Senate is already perverted. The party in power packs any vacancies with their own supporters. That is their purpose. Make it accountable or get rid of it because it is the source of a lot of discontent in this country by its very existence in its present form..

I am aware of these arguments... I would at least want a more proportional senate

Wilber · November 30, 2008

So would a lot in Quebec!

True and yet Alberta has not elected a separatist candidate to either provincial or federal governments but supposedly they are the source of national disunity. What a joke.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Wilber

Wild Bill · November 30, 2008

Senate reform is such a non-issue. It's fine the way it is.

Well, it's fine for Ontario. Its higher population lets it dominate the Commons and the non-elected, not equal and not effective Senate means it can have more clout than any other province, except of course Quebec.

It's understandable for you to support the status quo, given your pseudonym on this board. However, to assume all the other provinces would agree is to assume that anyone living in any other province must have a hole in their head.

Hardly a way to "win friends and influence people".

blueblood · November 30, 2008

Like I've told you before. Thank God you don't run the country.

Why don't like how well Alberta is doing?

Wilber · November 30, 2008

I am aware of these arguments... I would at least want a more proportional senate

More proportional and more accountable to someone other than their political masters.

Smallc · November 30, 2008

Which is? The purpose of the Senate is already perverted. The party in power packs any vacancies with their own supporters. That is their purpose. Make it accountable or get rid of it because it is the source of a lot of discontent in this country by its very existence in its present form..

I would like the Atlantic provinces to be made equal with the rest of the country, but other than that, the senate does its job. It represents the regions and acts as a sober second thought. Besides that, no one can agree on what they want to do with it.

Our system doesn't need to be like the US elected senate. Its not the way it was set up.

Wilber · November 30, 2008

I would like the Atlantic provinces to be made equal with the rest of the country, but other than that, the senate does its job. It represents the regions and acts as a sober second thought. Besides that, no one can agree on what they want to do with it.
Our system doesn't need to be like the US elected senate. Its not the way it was set up.

Sober? Maybe. Awake? possibly. Present? Sometimes but in some cases, never. Accountable? Not.

The Atlantic provinces would be equal under an elected senate with equal provincial representation as in the US. Of course that would be unacceptable to Ontario and Quebec which has a duopoly on that house. The senate we now have is divided on party lines under a system that is not accountable to the people. It's interesting that states such as Rhode Island, Hawaii and Alaska can have the same representation in a federal house as New York and California yet it causes a lot less friction between states than our Senate does here between provinces.

No, it wasn't set up that way. It was set up as an old boys club for the unellected to mirror the House of Lords in a country without an aristocracy.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Wilber

Smallc · November 30, 2008

Sober? Maybe. Awake? possibly. Present? Sometimes but in some cases, never. Accountable? Not.

I think they have to be present a certain amount of the time or they have no job. Also, the senate is very important in terms of committees.

Our senate was set up so the regions have the same representation, not the provinces. The atlantic is the only part that is not equal with the other regions as it has more then it should because of the late addition of Newfoundland. The fact is, some provinces want an elected senate, some want an appointed one, and some want none at all. Its best to just leave it alone (except, again, to possibly make the atlantic equal with the rest of the country, but I don't know if NS and NB would take a cut in their number....though I'm sure PEI would be happy).

Wilber · November 30, 2008

What about the guy they tracked down in Mexico who hadn't lived in Canada or attended a session in years?

It's set up to represent the regions as they were a hundred years ago but doesn't really represent anyone but the people who put them there which was not the citizens of Canada. We got a senate because Britain has a House of Lords. No other reason. This house of sober second thought idea was something dreamed up after the fact in order to justify its existence.

Smallc · November 30, 2008

What about the guy they tracked down in Mexico who hadn't lived in Canada or attended a session in years?
It's set up to represent the regions as they were a hundred years ago but doesn't really represent anyone but the people who put them there which was not the citizens of Canada. We got a senate because Britain has a House of Lords. No other reason. This house of sober second thought idea was something dreamed up after the fact in order to justify its existence.

Look, your a Conservative, I understand you don't like it. If you were a New Democrat, you'd want it gone. if you were a Liberal, you might want any number of things. Its pretty hard to reconcile that. if you were Ontario, you'd want it gone. If you were Quebec, you'd like it the way it is. If you were from Alberta, you'd want it elected. How do you reconcile that?

The thing is, our system works the majority (vast majority) of the time. Just t because you don't like the senate or what it does, doesn't mean its not doing its job.

Frank · November 30, 2008

Well I guess I picked a good time to join this forum...

As we can see, too many people in this great country of ours are more concerned with their own slice of the pie.

Our Senate is a joke thru and thru, they offer no sober second thought as mentioned earlier, they only do as they are told by the patron that put them there. Any notion to the contrary is simply naive.

While I find the notion of Canada breaking up, thoroughly disgusting, I do understand the frustration behind such exclamations. Bottom line here is we need to find a way to make our politicians do as they are told.

Too often, we see idealist young politicos enter the arena with the best intentions only to be stonewalled or crushed at every turn by the "old-boy" network of "what's in it for me" veterans who have lost their way.

Is it possible to find a balance between Corporate politics and Social politics? ABSOLUTLEY!!!

At every opportunity, we as Canadians must remind OUR elected officials that we voted for them in order to further the growth of our communities,provinces AND the country as a whole.

While I am a born and raised Ontarian, I am first and foremost a CANADIAN. If anyone thinks that a true Canuck

would stand by and see Canada broken up or become a collection of northern U.S. states...then they are talking to nobody I know or want to know.

Get on the phone,emails or just write an old-fashioned letter to your town council, MPP and MP. Let them know that you love your country,warts and all. If they are not willing to stand up to this "politi-coup" BS, then let them know you are willing to go to great lengths to end their political careers, after all, it takes nothing more than time and dedication to visit your neighbours ahead of or right behind a campaign worker.

All that aside, IF YOU WANT TO MAKE A CHANGE, THAN NEXT TIME WE DO HAVE AN ELECTION...

GET OFF YOUR LAZY TV WATCHING ASSES AND VOTE!!!! I am truly amazed at the number of Canadians who offer opinions on government and yet fail to show up at the polls. SHAME ON YOU!

Edited November 30, 2008 by Frank

Wilber · November 30, 2008

Look, your a Conservative, I understand you don't like it. If you were a New Democrat, you'd want it gone. if you were a Liberal, you might want any number of things. Its pretty hard to reconcile that. if you were Ontario, you'd want it gone. If you were Quebec, you'd like it the way it is. If you were from Alberta, you'd want it elected. How do you reconcile that?
The thing is, our system works the majority (vast majority) of the time. Just t because you don't like the senate or what it does, doesn't mean its not doing its job.

Nothing to do with my political leanings. I don't like it because it is undemocratic, serves political interests and is not accountable except to those whom they owe their jobs. If you like it because of your party politics, it is because it serves your interests, pure and simple.

The easiest way to reconcile it is just get rid of it. Any house that owes its membership to privilege is an insult to democracy.

whowhere · November 30, 2008

Well, what if that vote were held in Alberta, the day after this Opposition coup succeeds in establishing a coalition government by toppling the Tories?
My point is that people want to leave when they see no benefit to staying. Each side sees living under the rule of the other as intolerable.

How does it benefit Alberta to stay if the Liberals are back in power?

fakkkkkkkkkkkkk, are you for real?? Under what power would any region leave Canada? Aside from Quebec you people have crap entitlement to the region you live in. Canada did not fight or win a grand war to win independence from the UK. Any move to break away from Canada would require some outside support. Who would support alberta if it tried to separate? The US?? Doubtful. Who else?? Nobody!!!

Check the BNA and the 1982 Constitution, the Queen is the sovereign of Canada and the land of Canada belongs to her. Can't accept that reality, not sure what else there is to say to you. Canada is a nothing burger on the world stage, it has no population, no inovation, and mostly populated by dim witted dullards.

Smallc · November 30, 2008

Nothing to do with my political leanings. I don't like it because it is undemocratic, serves political interests and is not accountable except to those whom they owe their jobs. If you like it because of your party politics, it is because it serves your interests, pure and simple.
The easiest way to reconcile it is just get rid of it. Any house that owes its membership to privilege is an insult to democracy.

See, but those are all opinions. Reality is, our system works as intended and its done quite well for this country.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Smallc

Smallc · November 30, 2008

Looking into it, I think that as well as fixing the problem on the east coast, I would like Senate selection to go back to the GG with no advice from the PM. That would help to remove politics from it.

Alta4ever · November 30, 2008

fakkkkkkkkkkkkk, are you for real?? Under what power would any region leave Canada? Aside from Quebec you people have crap entitlement to the region you live in. Canada did not fight or win a grand war to win independence from the UK. Any move to break away from Canada would require some outside support. Who would support alberta if it tried to separate? The US?? Doubtful. Who else?? Nobody!!!
Check the BNA and the 1982 Constitution, the Queen is the sovereign of Canada and the land of Canada belongs to her. Can't accept that reality, not sure what else there is to say to you. Canada is a nothing burger on the world stage, it has no population, no inovation, and mostly populated by dim witted dullards.

I guess you never read the clarity act. we do have rules now for the disinatgration of this great land of our.

LesterDC · November 30, 2008

fakkkkkkkkkkkkk, are you for real?? Under what power would any region leave Canada? Aside from Quebec you people have crap entitlement to the region you live in. Canada did not fight or win a grand war to win independence from the UK. Any move to break away from Canada would require some outside support. Who would support alberta if it tried to separate? The US?? Doubtful. Who else?? Nobody!!!
Check the BNA and the 1982 Constitution, the Queen is the sovereign of Canada and the land of Canada belongs to her. Can't accept that reality, not sure what else there is to say to you. Canada is a nothing burger on the world stage, it has no population, no inovation, and mostly populated by dim witted dullards.

No "grandiose" wars as you put it.. But I do believe that we are entitled through WW1 and the like, if those wars are not grandiose enough for you then I don't know what to say.. We gained our sovereignty through evolution, I don't see how that is less valid than a "grand war".

You say that Canada has no innovation and is populated by dim witted dullard? I hope that was just a joke..

Anyhow, the rest of your post I agree with however.. I doubt that a seceding province would be considered favourable by the international community. As the US did not want the Yugoslavian states to secede, the same applies to Canada. It is a lot more convenient to deal with a large single entity rather than various smaller ones.

Also, yes, Canadian land belongs to Canada. If you want to secede, go somewhere else.

BornAlbertan · November 30, 2008

OF course every region is different. Te rest is simply your opinion. I don't think we should eliminate a constitutionally mandated transfer program just because you don't like it.

Spoken like a person from a province with so little to offer that the feds had to establish so many offices of consequence just to provide a revenue stream.

Smallc · November 30, 2008

Spoken like a person from a province with so little to offer that the feds had to establish so many offices of consequence just to provide a revenue stream.

Regionalism at its best. I hope all Albertans aren't quite so arrogant.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Smallc

BornAlbertan · November 30, 2008

Regionalism at its best. I hope all Albertans aren't quite so arrogant.

Awwwwweeeee.....did I strike a nerve?! I hope not all Manitobans are so damn socialist just just for the sake or survival.

I believe in hand ups....not perpetual hand outs. If you have a problem with that, I am sorry.

"Give a man a fish...and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he eats for a lifetime." Jesus was a pretty smart cookie...

Smallc · November 30, 2008

Awwwwweeeee.....did I strike a nerve?! I hope not all Manitobans are so damn socialist just just for the sake or survival.
I believe in hand ups....not perpetual hand outs. If you have a problem with that, I am sorry.

"Give a man a fish...and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he eats for a lifetime." Jesus was a pretty smart cookie...

First, I'm not a socialist, I'm a liberal. Second, I believe in constitutional mandated equalization programs, not ideological based policies that leave some areas without. Third, not all provinces are lucky enough to be sitting on a certain black gold (or at least, large amounts of it), not that thats the only way to get rich, and its not the only reason Alberta is rich....Alberta also happens to be sitting on some of the best tourist resources in Canada and some of the most usable farmland. It would be hard for Alberta to not be a have province.

Oh, and just so you know, Manitoba was the fastest growing province in 2007. Only Saskatchewan is growing faster this year.

To finish off though - if Jesus wasn't able to teach the man to fish, do you think he would have let him go hungry? Ponder that for a few minutes.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Smallc

Smallc · November 30, 2008

Oh, and I am quite certain that I would feel the same way no matter which province I lived in. When all of the provinces are fiscally stable, the entire country is better off.