Spain's Mistake

[xtreme69]

The First Mistake

Today something happened. A shift of some kind, I can feel it inside me. Something.s different. The change began this morning, not long after I woke and began my morning routine. I got out of bed, walked into the living room, and turned on the news as I always do. From there I walked to my alcove kitchen and grabbed my usual breakfast treat, shredded wheat. Breakfast in hand, I walked back to my couch and sat down in front of the TV, one quarter asleep, one half hungry, and one quarter paying attention to the headlines as they stream by.

Then it happened.

Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero. The Party Popular loses the election. New Prime Minister vows to pull troops from Iraq, all 1300 of them. And while the number of troops being removed poses no real logistical problem for the allies, the potential implications such an event could have on our current global situation are mind numbing. Visions of a present day Chamberlain and the Munich Accord sear into my brain. How on earth did this come to be?

Al Qaeda has been given its boost, it has won its first real battle. Sept. 11th was not a victory for Al Qaeda, it was a devastating defeat. Terrorism is a political weapon used to weaken an enemies resolve as well as faith in their governing establishment, and possibly, even change their enemies populous view of the world. Accomplishing these things allow terrorists to destroy an enemy from within, without ever engaging them in an actual defined conflict in which they could be defeated. Given this, one could say that our best weapon against terrorism is an unwavering belief in victory, a fearlessness that cannot be rivaled, and most importantly, the strength to view the reality behind terrorist attacks: These are not retaliatory strikes, they are acts of aggression that will not cease until the shift of power falls to the side of those who perpetrate them.

But the people of Spain didn.t think so. The people of Spain saw their choice as clear. The truths they saw, while they will claim an infinite depth to them, hardly scratched the surface of realism. They saw hundreds of their brethren die in the streets of Madrid, over a thousand wounded, and from this vision sprung a line of thinking that was planned. In the U.S. that plan had failed, but in Spain it would take root and do its work, producing results in the end that brought a smile to the face of extremists everywhere.

The people of Spain began to look to Iraq. They began to look to their support of the U.S. in recent past. They thought about the arrests of Al Qaeda members and supporters throughout Spain over the past two years. And then a realization hit them, something they had known before but not really known: They were targets, real targets. It was at that juncture that I had become interested, really truly interested, in how this situation would turn out. I was interested because the world is about perceptions, perceptions of strength, intelligence, wealth, etc. And the people of Spain were about to make a decision that went infinitely beyond who would be their next Prime Minister. They were about to announce their will to fight, or the day of their surrender. They were either going to testify to their belief in their culture, in their peers, in their leaders, or, they were going to display their doubt, their fear, their lack of confidence.

We know which they chose.

There was a reason the Spanish were chosen as a target for such an organized attack. In terms of doubt, they were the leader amongst the allied countries. Some polls showed the public at large in Spain at 90% opposed to the action in Iraq. The United States has been much more 50/50, which would make them a much less appealing target. But it is not only the fact that the ideological fight in the U.S. is a close one that makes them a less likely choice for an attack. It is also the response they had to the first attack that makes terrorists wonder, for the moment, if attacking the U.S. truly is advantageous too them. Spain however, now there was a place in which reaction could almost accurately be predicted.

So the terrorists thought, and how right they were. I, on the other hand, was quite shocked by the results of the voting. I felt sure that the Spanish would realize the precipice upon which they stood. Behind them, terrorist forces bent on influencing every aspect of their lives, including even the government which defines them all. Ahead of them lay the abyss, a swirling retch of pacification hell from which no country has ever returned unscathed. I thought for sure they would turn and fight, thought I could see the fire in the eyes of the few I had seen on video montages strewn across the news. I was wrong though, I was very wrong. And so here we sit, the U.S. and Britain, with the world watching. Other countries support us, they are not non-existent, but the three that led the way are now the two. And now my eyes turn too Britain, for her trial by fire may soon come.

The enemy knows the United States reaction to terrorism. It knows it cannot defeat the U.S. What it did not know was the reaction of U.S. allies to terrorism. It now knows one and will seek out others, it will seek to undermine all faith in our world order, our establishment. Combat this with courage, with strength, with a belief in yourself and your ideals. Do not let fear rule your decisions, this is key when facing down a terrorist threat because it is upon your fear that your enemy relies. Spain is afraid, and so they should be, they have just invited terrorism permanently into their homeland.

And so the first great mistake of the 21st century is made, one with the potential to change the future of our world. Thank you Spain, and may history have mercy on your souls.

[jccc]

Maybe Spain thinks its first mistake was joining the unwinnable war in the first place. There always has been & always will be terrorism, especially in & from the Mid East. A dent or two may be put in the AQ, but the war will never be won. Just like the war on drugs, as much as someone likes to think they are winning, they are not even close. Thats just the way it is

Jim

[NDP Newbie]

1. You have "69" in your name.

2. You come across as a less insane version of Adam Yoshida.

[xtreme69]

I see. A war that can not be won, an interesting perspective. I don't think it fair, though, that because you are incapable of coming up with a solution to the problem, or are unwilling to even try one, that we should assume that none exists nor will any ever work.

Terrorism to some extent will always exist, this is true. However, given the new weaponary available to terrorists, as well as the escalation of events that occured before the Afghan and Iraq wars, Sept. 11th in particular, I think your argument is absurd. If what you say is true, we should all just hop in our cars and drive off the nearest cliff, because as technology improves its propensity to destroy does likewise. Coincidentally, so to will the ease with which it can be used.

There are a great many countries in which terrorism does not exist to the extent of which the Middle East breeds. This cannot be denied. So why then is it so impossible to think that change for the better in that region can be acheived? Is there some curse on the grounds of Iran that I am unaware of? A chemical we cannot detect in the Saudi water supply? Have the Syrians all been possesed by devils? They are as human as you or I, and I am willing to wager that you have no interest in blowing yourself up for anyones cause anytime soon, nor do you know anyone who is.

The war on drugs is a poor example, for drugs and their allure are something that we as humans all have used in some scope, be it coffee, nicotine, or alcohol. The only difference between some of these drugs and their counter-parts is their legality. We all know what nicotine in it's packaged form is capable of doing long term, and anyone who has researched alcoholism knows how devastating it's effects can be on a persons life. Terrorism in it's current form seems to be bred mainly in a certain area of the world, and the beliefs behind this form of terrorism are all the more dangerous. Terrorism is not a human born instinct, it is a learned one...alleviating pain however, be it mental or physical, is something we all seek.

This is a war that can be won, of that there is no doubt in my mind. Farther from that though it is a war that must be won, for I can not honestly see any legitimate alternative in the long run.

[personal_ideaology]

I think its all a matter of proximity, September the 11th showed that the United States was not immune to terrorism, but yet they are not directly across from North Africa, like Spain.

Spain, Italy, Greece and Albania all trade heavily with the countries on the otherside of the medditarean, and you might even be able to draw a parrallel between the US and Mexico, in regards to emigration and cross border trade.

Everybody knows Spain was in the Iraq war largely for its own national interests, a desire to pick up the financial contracts that France and Germany lost out on.

Simply put, if Europe joins in on the war on terrorism, they are going to get the brunt of most of the terrorist activity because of their close proximity to the middle east.

As we have seen with the United States, this escalation is just going to lead to full scale imperialism buy the west over the middle east, and although in theory I appreciate what Bush and Blair are trying to due, I can't help but think the terrorism would subside if we adopt a hydrogen ecomomy, and slowly withdraw from the region.

[jccc]

X69

Don't forget, Afghanastan is the worlds leader in poppy production. Now they mixed drugs & terror......very lucrative business for people that want to buy weapons & terrorize.......you may win a battle or two, but you won't win the war

Jim

[jccc]

X69

I do have a solution but the US doesn't what to try it. First remove all western military equipment & personnel from the Mideast, take it back home, mind your own business, send a monthly cheque for your oil bill to Iraq & let them do what they want. Then they will have no reason to attack you after that. Other than that, there are no other feasible solutions.

Jim

[Black Dog]

What no one seems to mention is that there have been no links shown between Hussein's Iraq and Al Q'aeda. If anything, the Anglo-American invasion was a boost to Al Q'aeda, more concrete evidence of what they say is the west's war against Islam.

As for Spain, the Spanish population demonstrated the power of democracy. Anazar took the country into Iraq against the will of the population and in term, made Spain a terrorist target. The people of Spain held their government accountable and showed them there is a price to be paid for defying the popular will.

[August1991]

Anazar took the country into Iraq against the will of the population and in term, made Spain a terrorist target.

I happen to think you're wrong. These terrorists just want to kill westerners. 'You love life and we love death', says it quite well.

And in any case, are you suggesting the attacks were 'justified' in some way? That is, if you vote against Bush, you don't get attacked? Then your argument is even more pathetic. That was the reasoning of the Balkans faced with Hitler. If you can't fight 'em, join 'em.

[Black Dog]

I happen to think you're wrong. These terrorists just want to kill westerners. 'You love life and we love death', says it quite well.

And in any case, are you suggesting the attacks were 'justified' in some way? That is, if you vote against Bush, you don't get attacked? Then your argument is even more pathetic. That was the reasoning of the Balkans faced with Hitler.

You forgot to mention that the terrorists hate our freedoms.

What I'm saying is the attacks were a predictable response to Spain's involvement in the war on terror and the Iraq invasion.

If you can't fight 'em, join 'em.

Fortunately, the real world is not so black and white. It's possible to combat terrorism without buying in to Bush's wrong headed and unwinnable war on terror.

[August1991]

It's possible to combat terrorism without buying in to Bush's wrong headed and unwinnable war on terror.

You may get me there. The British handled communist-insurgency in Malaysia much better than the French (and Americans) in Vietnam.

But I've seen Beirut and quite frankly, these people are pretty whacko. Q: "But you're destroying your country?" A:"We have to hit them very hard." Keep in mind that the whackos are about 5% of the population or less.

The Syrians ultimately put a stop to it, that plus the whackos 1) killed each other off or 2) grew up or 3) got bored.

Incidentally, I saw the same in Sri Lanka so this isn't Islamic in my opinion. The twist is that the Islamic whackos have brought this to us.

[KrustyKidd]

What I'm saying is the attacks were a predictable response to Spain's involvement in the war on terror and the Iraq invasion.

Black Dog, someday you will come down to reality, don't worry. For the rest of you who are not wearing your rose coloured glasses, todays news provides an insight of sorts.

THE MESSAGE

The group appeared to boast it had the power to change governments. The socialists, who have long opposed Spain's military involvement in Iraq, were running second in Spanish opinion polls until Thursday's bombings.

"We change and destroy countries," the statement said. "We even influence the international economy, and this is God's blessing to us. We won't accept to be an object in this world, but a player, a strong player - with God's will."

The statement tells American voters that Abu Hafs al-Masri supports the re-election campaign of U.S. President George W. Bush: "We are very keen that Bush does not lose the upcoming elections."

The insight I speak of is not the play listed here but rather the fact that these guys really have no agenda other than to kill. They kill, then come up with a reason. Sometimes it's the US in Iraq, support for them of some imaginary or real kind, and then others still, just an attack. Intellectuals can reason this till the cows come home but the facts are - these guys want to okill us and enjoy doing it. If you can rationalize that, you don't belong to the human race.

[jccc]

The reason I think they "enjoy" killing Americans is because they think America is trying to run "their" country by means of violence. Violence breeds violence. I would be shooting, exploding, bombing everything in sight myself if a foreign invader came to Canada & told us how to live our lives. America already does that to us, just with non-violent means. (Give ol' GW another term & he may attack us yet) What I am saying is help the flowers bloom in your own backyard & let the weeds grow in theirs. The time & money the US spends overseas would be much better spent fixing their own problems. The mideast war has been around for 1000s of years & it ain't going away anytime soon!

Jim

[Black Dog]

The insight I speak of is not the play listed here but rather the fact that these guys really have no agenda other than to kill. They kill, then come up with a reason. Sometimes it's the US in Iraq, support for them of some imaginary or real kind, and then others still, just an attack. Intellectuals can reason this till the cows come home but the facts are - these guys want to okill us and enjoy doing it. If you can rationalize that, you don't belong to the human race.

Al Q'aeda's "manifesto", if you will, is well known. Their reasons well-documented. "They like to kill", while great for dehumanizing one's enemies, doesn't wash. After all, it's not that difficult to turn your reasoning (such as it is) around. From a different perspective, the same argument could be used with regard to American troops in Iraq ("they just like to kill Arabs"). It's equally invalid. Violence, be it war or acts of terrorism, always occurs within a social or political context. Attempts to decontextualize acts of terror ("They hate our freedoms etc.") are merely to dismiss the possibility that "our" actions have a bearing on "their" motivations. Rose-coloured glasses? Hell, you're wearing a blindfold.

[August1991]

Attempts to decontextualize acts of terror ("They hate our freedoms etc.") are merely to dismiss the possibility that "our" actions have a bearing on "their" motivations.

Underneath it BD, I think you have a simple self-loathing. You don't like the West, Western Civilization, Western Capitalism, Big Corporations, Profit Obsession, Western Economics. According to you, everything wrong in the world is caused by this thing called the "Western Way of Life", and in particular its North American variant.

BD, can you name one thing that is good about Western Civilization?

[KrustyKidd]

The reason I think they "enjoy" killing Americans is because they think America is trying to run "their" country by means of violence. Violence breeds violence. I would be shooting, exploding, bombing everything in sight myself if a foreign invader came to Canada & told us how to live our lives. America already does that to us, just with non-violent means. (Give ol' GW another term & he may attack us yet) What I am saying is help the flowers bloom in your own backyard & let the weeds grow in theirs. The time & money the US spends overseas would be much better spent fixing their own problems. The mideast war has been around for 1000s of years & it ain't going away anytime soon!

Jim

The Middle East War has been going on for thousands of years? So now you are telling me that these guys were never advanced? I thought lefties were concvinced that Arabs had the monopoly on civilization and now you are telling us that they have always been screwed up in the head, Racist Bastard you are! Besides, did they always kill each other like this, when did they have GLOBAL reach such as now? and really, are you telling me that in the thousands of years of wars the rest of the planet was at peace?

Rose coloured glasses you guys have, their country is occupied? Is that why foriegn insurgents are bombing Iraqis? Is that why Iraqis are forming vilante groups to fight terrorists that arfe operating in the country? Is that why Terrorists bomb Indonesians, Turks, Fellow Arabs, fellow Iraqis, UN workers and on and on and on. Oooops, Spainish soldiers, Spanish women, and now threaten the women, men and children of a further half dozen countries? Because the US is in Iraq? I can tell the colour in your wolrd is pretty much basic pastels and one dimensional at that. You keep under Black Dog's skirt there, you make about as much sense as it does. as I said before, if you can rationalize this stuff, you are living in a bubble. And not even an intellectual one at that. These guys want to start WWIII and have the west against the Middle East, them comming out the victor. They desire to kill, preferably westerners, or easterners, or their own in this mission. It is their contrortion of religion, beliefs or whatever you wnat to call it, it is theirs.

[Black Dog]

Underneath it BD, I think you have a simple self-loathing. You don't like the West, Western Civilization, Western Capitalism, Big Corporations, Profit Obsession, Western Economics. According to you, everything wrong in the world is caused by this thing called the "Western Way of Life", and in particular its North American variant

Not everything, no. But a good-sized chunk of the blame can be laid squarely at our doorstep. Recognizing our faults and acknowledging our crimes is not "self-loathing", but based on a desire to improve the way things are. It's possible to recognize the positive contributions of western civilization (ie. ideals of human rights, democracy and pluralism), while acknowledging taht we don't always live up to them. Which is a damn sight more nuanced, mature and, ultimately, positive view than "were the bestest and perfectest."

BD, can you name one thing that is good about Western Civilization?

Yeah: me.

The Middle East War has been going on for thousands of years? So now you are telling me that these guys were never advanced? 

Oh brother. Acknowledging the historical realities of the "clash of civilizations" which date back to the Crusades is not making any judgement on the condition of Arab/Muslim society then or now.

And the rest of your post is just incoherent jibber-jabber rife with misrepresntations and gross simplifications.

In other news...

Blix says Iraq war may have worsened terror threat

[d4dev]

X69

I do have a solution but the US doesn't what to try it. First remove all western military equipment & personnel from the Mideast, take it back home, mind your own business, send a monthly cheque for your oil bill to Iraq & let them do what they want. Then they will have no reason to attack you after that. Other than that, there are no other feasible solutions.

Jim

Completely agree with you. It is the US' insistence on projecting it's hegemony over the world that makes it the target of terrorist attacks. 'Live and let live', it's as simple as that. But the policymakers in Washington don't seem to understand that.

[d4dev]

KK, let us clarify a few things here.

Is that why foriegn insurgents are bombing Iraqis?

Which foreign insurgents are you talking about?

Is that why Iraqis are forming vilante groups to fight terrorists that arfe operating in the country?

Vigilante groups, eh? Well, let me tell you something. First of all, please give links to those statements that you just throw away without any backing. Second, if you have the links, read it carefully and seee if it mentions anywhere that the Americans are arming the Iraqis to fight the terrorists.

Third, the article may not mention it, but the vigilante groups that you are talking about may just be some common Iraqis that are being paid by the Americans to keep order.

Is that why Terrorists bomb Indonesians, Turks, Fellow Arabs, fellow Iraqis, UN workers and on and on and on.

Terrorists bomb anyone who they see as a traitor/or any other US' puppeys for that matter. So it's no wonder that Osama Bin Laden is from Saudi Arabia, the US' prime ally in the middle east. Cause they see (correctly) the saudi regime as rulers only in name, which depends on Washington for it's survival. (incidently the US keeps silent about 'democracy and freedom' for the Saudis)

[MapleLeafMerc]

Maybe Spain thinks its first mistake was joining the unwinnable war in the first place. There always has been & always will be terrorism, especially in & from the Mid East. A dent or two may be put in the AQ, but the war will never be won. Just like the war on drugs, as much as someone likes to think they are winning, they are not even close. Thats just the way it is

Jim

No, Jim, that's more commonly called capitulation. The war on drugs IS being lost, but has nothing to do with resisting blackmail from the s***piles we call al-Qaida.

There always has been terrorism, Jim? No, not until liberals regularly began caving in to bullies.

[August1991]

It is the US' insistence on projecting it's hegemony over the world that makes it the target of terrorist attacks. 'Live and let live', it's as simple as that.

dv4dev, do you mean that the US provoked the World Trade Center planes? Then you blame Clinton?

Bush responded to these planes.

Everyone, please. Let's get this absolutely straight.

We can argue about Bush's response but he didn't start this.

[MapleLeafMerc]

Black Dog, IP, jccc:

You all have an innate ability to display self-loathing and fear of freedom for all. When Muslims truly embrace freedom and democracy, let us know. Until then, you defend societies that believe in bending their citizens to their will through terror.

[KrustyKidd]

d4dev,Mar 19 2004,

Which foreign insurgents are you talking about?

Try reading a paper once in awhile.

IRAQ ARTICLE

American and Iraqi officials say there is growing evidence that the insurgency is being taken over by foreign fighters with links to international terrorist groups like Al Qaeda, as the ranks of Saddam's supporters are thinned by capture or death.

The strongest indication that the violence is being directed by foreigners was made public this week, when American officials said they had obtained a document written by a Jordanian man, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, known to have substantial links to Al Qaeda.

.

In the document, which was seized in January during the arrest of a Pakistani man in Iraq, the writer takes credit for directing 25 suicide bombings and asks his associates, presumably the leaders of Al Qaeda, for help. In his letter, the writer heaps nearly as much scorn on his fellow Muslims as he does on the Americans. The letter calls for a "sectarian war" against Iraq's Shiite Muslim majority, calling the bloodbath that would result the only chance for eventually expelling the Americans from Iraq.

Oct. 27, a suicide bomber who drove his truck into a Baghdad police station failed to detonate his bomb. He was shot instead, and Iraqi police found a Syrian passport in his possession. Janabi said the man turned out to be Yemeni.

"We do not believe these suicide bombings are being carried out by Iraqis; they have no history of this," said Ibrahim al-Janabi, deputy chief of the Iraqi National Accord, a political party with historic ties to the Central Intelligence Agency. "Our evidence suggests that most of the recent attacks - Najaf, Nasiriya, the UN bombing - were being carried out by foreigners." At a news conference this week, Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, the military's deputy chief of operations, said that preliminary evidence pointed to Al Qaeda's involvement in the attack on a police station in Iskandariya that killed 54 people.

Vigilante groups, eh? Well, let me tell you something. First of all, please give links to those statements that you just throw away without any backing. Second, if you have the links, read it carefully and seee if it mentions anywhere that the Americans are arming the Iraqis to fight the terrorists. Third, the article may not mention it, but the vigilante groups that you are talking about may just be some common Iraqis that are being paid by the Americans to keep order.

HERE'S THE LINK

As for all the stuff you wanted me to do, sorry Sergent Major, you are wrong.

Terrorists bomb anyone who they see as a traitor/or any other US' puppeys for that matter.

And any other target to instill fear, chaos and dispair. I suppose that all the Mosques they bombed had pro US markings on them? The people in the markets are wearing Stars and Stripes? Tell me, how do they know that they are killing people that are for or agains the US?

[d4dev]

Try reading a paper once in awhile.

Good article. But your original statement was:

Is that why foriegn insurgents are bombing Iraqis? Is that why Iraqis are forming vilante groups to fight terrorists that arfe operating in the country?

which makes it seem that all Iraqis are victims of Al-qaeda (the organization that your article mentions is responsible for those attacks.) and Iraqis don't have any hand in the resistance whatever. Now, does that mean that all the attacks that have been carried out against the US forces in the past year have been the work of Al-Qaeda? Seems very unlikely. It is more likely that the majority of the attacks have been carried out by dissatisfied Iraqis, and some minor ones by the Al-Qaeda.

As for all the stuff you wanted me to do, sorry Sergent Major, you are wrong.

That's just your opinion. You never proved me wrong.

And any other target to instill fear, chaos and dispair.  I suppose that all the Mosques they bombed had pro US markings on them?  The people in the markets are wearing Stars and Stripes?  Tell me, how do they know that they are killing people that are for or agains the US?

I don't know which mosques they bombed or why. However, crimes as those are not always committed against the people who actually did bad things to you. They are symbols of the enemy, and that is why they become targets. To give you an example, after 9/11, numerous hate crimes were committed against Muslims in the US. Were those Muslims responsible for 9/11? No. But they were symbols of Arab terrorism (and this is by no means a way to justify their crimes.)

[d4dev]

dv4dev, do you mean that the US provoked the World Trade Center planes? Then you blame Clinton?

Bush responded to these planes.

Everyone, please. Let's get this absolutely straight.

We can argue about Bush's response but he didn't start this.

Yes, I do mean that the US provoked the World Trade Center bombings. US foreign policy, over the past century has been extremely self-centered, unjust and geared to meddle in affairs which do not concern them in the least. I have, some time back, posted a history of the US' interventions and military conflicts in the past century. It has been the most aggresively hegemonic superpower that the world has ever seen after Great Britian.

As they say, you reap as you sow.