Learn French, Quebec orders immigrants

Leafless · October 30, 2008

Looks like new immigrants immigrating to Quebec will have to sign a declaration promising to learn French and acknowledging that they understand men and women have equal rights, and political and religious powers are separate.

This in my IMO contradicts Canada's Charter of rights and Freedoms relating to 'freedom of expression'.

Does this mean that Quebec's Charter of the French language trumps Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedom's?

In any event Quebec's immigration minister Yolande James admits there wasn't much the government could do if immigrants refused to abide by Quebec values once they have settled here.

So why go to all this trouble if this Quebec plan is not legally binding?

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/s...5e-4f2c48dbbb51

drewski · October 30, 2008

This in my IMO contradicts Canada's Charter of rights and Freedoms relating to 'freedom of expression'.
Does this mean that Quebec's Charter of the French language trumps Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedom's?

that would only been the case if the law stated they could ONLY speak french. which is not the case.

section 2 (freedom of expression) is a fundamental right that can and has been overridden via the notwithstanding clause in the charter. also, it doesn't look to go against any of the inalienable language rights in the charter so that avenue of argument is out

I really don't see a problem with requiring immigrants to learn one of the official languages, preferably the dominant of the two. I'm not keen with specifically requiring one fo the two, but thats quebec and there's only so much you can do

Leafless · October 30, 2008

that would only been the case if the law stated they could ONLY speak french. which is not the case.

This proposed piece of legislation does not only fly in the face of freedom of expression but also discriminates and is racist.

section 2 (freedom of expression) is a fundamental right that can and has been overridden via the notwithstanding clause in the charter.

The 'notwithstanding clause' is designed as a temporary piece of legislation.

No federal government in their right mind would allow Quebec to proceed with this type of draconian legislation.

I really don't see a problem with requiring immigrants to learn one of the official languages, preferably the dominant of the two.

I think most immigrants learn English or French anyways.

The problem here is forcing potential immigrants to learn French as a conditon of immigrating to Quebec.

Governments could overcome this language problem by choosing immigrants from countries that are already familiar with the languages of Canada.

Edited October 30, 2008 by Leafless

Wild Bill · October 31, 2008

This proposed piece of legislation does not only fly in the face of freedom of expression but also discriminates and is racist.
The 'notwithstanding clause' is designed as a temporary piece of legislation.

No federal government in their right mind would allow Quebec to proceed with this type of draconian legislation.

I think most immigrants learn English or French anyways.

The problem here is forcing potential immigrants to learn French as a conditon of immigrating to Quebec.

Governments could overcome this language problem by choosing immigrants from countries that are already familiar with the languages of Canada.

I keep hearing suggestions made in this and other threads about choosing immigrants from compatible countries and cultures, as far as language and skills.

Do we have this luxury? Seems to me like the world changed decades ago. Those multi-lingual and highly educated Europeans have a higher standard of living today than that of Canada. Why on earth would they wish to come here? Outside of a few old folks coming to live with their children, of course.

The premise seems to be that Canada is as attractive to this type of potential immigrant today as it was in the 1950's, after WWII. Is this still true?

Perhaps the "emperor has no clothes" secret is that Canada must take what it can get!

Maybe this should be a new thread...

drewski · October 31, 2008

This proposed piece of legislation does not only fly in the face of freedom of expression but also discriminates and is racist.

as I said, they are still free to express themselves however they want, in whatever language they want so i don't believe there is a freedom of expression violation. The government is only ensuring that they CAN (not must) do it it in French. as for racist, I don't see where race plays a part in this

No federal government in their right mind would allow Quebec to proceed with this type of draconian legislation.

yes they would if they want to increase their seat count there.

Mr.Canada · October 31, 2008

I agree with this. Everyone knoes that they speak French in Quebec. IF one doesn't speak French they don't live in Quebec. Very simple. If less than 1% cannot speak French people expect 99% of the province to change? Absurd.

Learn French or move to Toronto.

Leafless · October 31, 2008

Maybe this should be a new thread...

I agree that this warrants the action of a new thread.

If you don't initiate it, I will.

Leafless · October 31, 2008

as I said, they are still free to express themselves however they want, in whatever language they want so i don't believe there is a freedom of expression violation.

Quebec is forcing the ability to learn and speak French mandatory as a prerequisite prior to immigrating to Quebec.

Let's not also forget Quebec is simply a province in Canada and is NOT a country.

as for racist, I don't see where race plays a part in this

They are forcing the superiority of one culture over another culture as a conditon to immigrate to Quebec.

Leafless · October 31, 2008

I agree with this. Everyone knoes that they speak French in Quebec.

No they don't.

Language Number of

native speakers Percentage of

singular responses

French 5,877,060 80.1%

English 575,555 7.8%

Italian 124,820 1.7%

Spanish 108,790 1.5%

Arabic 108,105 1.5%

Chinese 63,415 0.9%

Creole 44,145 0.6%

Greek 41,845 0.6%

Portuguese 34,710 0.5%

Romanian 27,180 0.4%

Vietnamese 25,370 0.3%

Russian 19,275 0.3%

German 17,855 0.2%

Polish 17,305 0.2%

Armenian 15,520 0.2%

Persian 14,655 0.2%

Cree 13,340 0.2%

Panjabi (Punjabi) 11,905 0.2%

Tagalog (Filipino) 11,785 0.2%

Tamil 11,570 0.1%

Urdu 9,685 0.1%

Bengali 9,660 0.1%

Inuktitut 9,615 0.1%

Montagnais-Naskapi 9,335 0.1%

Khmer (Cambodian) 8,250 0.1%

Yiddish 8,225 0.1%

Hungarian (Magyar) 7,750 0.1%

Gujarati 6,050 0.1%

Turkish 5,865 0.1%

Ukrainian 5,395 0.1%

Atikamekw 5,245 0.1%

Bulgarian 5,215 0.1%

Lao 4,785 0.1%

Berber 4,560 0.1%

Hebrew 4,110 0.1%

Korean 3,970 0.1%

Dutch 3,620 ~

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec

IF one doesn't speak French they don't live in Quebec. Very simple. If less than 1% cannot speak French people expect 99% of the province to change? Absurd.
Learn French or move to Toronto.

I will never be forced to speak French. Maybe I am French for all you know!

I wouldn't move to slum city Toronto if my life depended on it.

Toronto the once majestic city has been culturally destroyed.

Edited October 31, 2008 by Leafless

M.Dancer · October 31, 2008

No they don't.
Language Number of

native speakers Percentage of

singular responses

French 5,877,060 80.1%

English 575,555 7.8%

Italian 124,820 1.7%

Spanish 108,790 1.5%

Arabic 108,105 1.5%

Chinese 63,415 0.9%

Creole 44,145 0.6%

Greek 41,845 0.6%

Portuguese 34,710 0.5%

Romanian 27,180 0.4%

Vietnamese 25,370 0.3%

Russian 19,275 0.3%

German 17,855 0.2%

Polish 17,305 0.2%

Armenian 15,520 0.2%

Persian 14,655 0.2%

Cree 13,340 0.2%

Panjabi (Punjabi) 11,905 0.2%

Tagalog (Filipino) 11,785 0.2%

Tamil 11,570 0.1%

Urdu 9,685 0.1%

Bengali 9,660 0.1%

Inuktitut 9,615 0.1%

Montagnais-Naskapi 9,335 0.1%

Khmer (Cambodian) 8,250 0.1%

Yiddish 8,225 0.1%

Hungarian (Magyar) 7,750 0.1%

Gujarati 6,050 0.1%

Turkish 5,865 0.1%

Ukrainian 5,395 0.1%

Atikamekw 5,245 0.1%

Bulgarian 5,215 0.1%

Lao 4,785 0.1%

Berber 4,560 0.1%

Hebrew 4,110 0.1%

Korean 3,970 0.1%

Dutch 3,620 ~

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec

That's the probelm with Leafless. His arthritic grasp of English often leaves him in the lurch.

That meaningless list you posted doesn't say if they can speak French or not, it says what their native tongue is...in other words their mother tongue. You can be damn sure the 25,000 Vietnamese can speak French and so can the 44,000 Creole speakers...not to mention at least 75% of the half million English.

Language
Main article: Language demographics of Quebec

The official language of Quebec is French. Quebec is the only Canadian province whose population is mainly francophone, constituting 79% (5,877,660) of the population according to the 2006 Census.[36] 95% of the people speak French as either their first, second or even third language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec#Demographics

Imagine someone being fluent in 3 languages. That's 3 languages more than Leafless.

drewski · October 31, 2008

Let's not also forget Quebec is simply a province in Canada and is NOT a country.
They are forcing the superiority of one culture over another culture as a conditon to immigrate to Quebec.

a)race isn't involved because quebecois isn't a race, nor are they discriminating against anybody based on race. EVERYBODY coming to Quebec, regardless of origin has to learn French

b)they are forcing superiority (not even sure what exactly that means) on anybody. they are merely ensuring that immigrants can speak the only official language in the province. a language that is the 1st, second or 3rd language of 95% of the population

guyser · October 31, 2008

I wouldn't move to slum city Toronto if my life depended on it.

Yea, stay in Ottawa. Do they roll up the sidewalks an hour earlier after daylight savings time?

Mr.Canada · October 31, 2008

All those languages mean little as we have two official languages in this country English and French. People in Quebec speak French, people in the rest of the country speak English. Street and shoppe signs etc. Don't bother with anal semantics you guys know what I mean.

If an immigrant is choosing to reside in either respective area they should speak the language. I thought people had too have a grasp of one of these languages before being admitted in Canada, I guess I was mistaken.

guyser · October 31, 2008

If one moved to Newfoundland......is there a movement to push learning the local language?

Now that would be hard. I dont need subtitles for quebec 'ers speaking english, but I sure as hell do for the rock people.

blueblood · October 31, 2008

Legislation forcing somebody to learn french is pure madness, it's bigottry and xenophobia to the extreme. Not only that, it's unnecessary. If an immigrant moves to Quebec and wants to function, they'll pick up french on their own. Should Alberta pass a law saying all immigrants must speak fluent english?

fellowtraveller · October 31, 2008

The real basis of this is politics, not nationalism. Mr Charest has taken a lot of the wind out of the sails of both the PQ and ADQ with this action.

Mr.Canada · November 1, 2008

Legislation forcing somebody to learn french is pure madness, it's bigottry and xenophobia to the extreme. Not only that, it's unnecessary. If an immigrant moves to Quebec and wants to function, they'll pick up french on their own. Should Alberta pass a law saying all immigrants must speak fluent english?

In Saudi Arabia it's illegal to be of any other religion than Islam. There are ZERO churches and ZERO temples there. I'm sure that's fine as long as Europeans aren't doing it.

Mr.Canada · November 1, 2008

The real basis of this is politics, not nationalism. Mr Charest has taken a lot of the wind out of the sails of both the PQ and ADQ with this action.

Good point even though I fully support the ADQ and its policies.

Peter F · November 1, 2008

Should Alberta pass a law saying all immigrants must speak fluent english?

There is no need for Alberta to pass such a law. The federal government has done that for them. All immigrants must speak one of either English or French...even if they are immigrating to Alberta.

blueblood · November 1, 2008

There is no need for Alberta to pass such a law. The federal government has done that for them. All immigrants must speak one of either English or French...even if they are immigrating to Alberta.

So if Alberta passed a law requiring people to speak fluent english, I'd hate to be a french speaking welder out in Fort Mac. If someone wants to speak english in Quebec, they shouldn't have a legislative gun to their head forcing them to learn french. An immigrant to Alberta gets a choice to speak whatever language they want, an immigrant to Quebec only gets to speak french. You would be the first banging the redneck drum if Alberta imposed the same language laws for English as Quebec already has for French. What makes Quebec so special?

Peter F · November 1, 2008

So if Alberta passed a law requiring people to speak fluent english, I'd hate to be a french speaking welder out in Fort Mac. If someone wants to speak english in Quebec, they shouldn't have a legislative gun to their head forcing them to learn french. An immigrant to Alberta gets a choice to speak whatever language they want, an immigrant to Quebec only gets to speak french. You would be the first banging the redneck drum if Alberta imposed the same language laws for English as Quebec already has for French. What makes Quebec so special?

An immigrant to Alberta does not get to speak whatever language they want. They must speak either English or French. Pretty limited choice if you ask me.

Smallc · November 1, 2008

An immigrant to Alberta does not get to speak whatever language they want. They must speak either English or French. Pretty limited choice if you ask me.

The way it should be. If you are coming to live in any part of Canada outside of Quebec, you should speak English. To live in Quebec, you should be bilingual.

blueblood · November 1, 2008

An immigrant to Alberta does not get to speak whatever language they want. They must speak either English or French. Pretty limited choice if you ask me.

A hell of a lot more choice than they have in Quebec.

The way it should be. If you are coming to live in any part of Canada outside of Quebec, you should speak English. To live in Quebec, you should be bilingual.

No we have two official languages, you should be able to pick. What makes Quebec so damn special? Should Manitoba impose similar language laws regarding English as they have in Quebec regarding French? In Manitoba, you can pick and still function, in Quebec you have a gun to your head. I find it funny you being a flag waving Liberal and saying we are all Canadian, is promoting a double standard.

Smallc · November 1, 2008

No we have two official languages, you should be able to pick. What makes Quebec so damn special? Should Manitoba impose similar language laws regarding English as they have in Quebec regarding French? In Manitoba, you can pick and still function, in Quebec you have a gun to your head. I find it funny you being a flag waving Liberal and saying we are all Canadian, is promoting a double standard.

If you can't accept the reality that Quebec has a majority French speaking population then that's too bad. Also, I didn't propagate a double standard. I said that you should have to speak (or I should add, have the ability to quickly learn) English in order to come to any province.

Leafless · November 1, 2008

That meaningless list you posted doesn't say if they can speak French or not, it says what their native tongue is...in other words their mother tongue.

The list is not meaningless.

The purpose of the list is to indicate other cultures live in Quebec outside of francophones.

BTW- French is the mother tongue of 82% of Quebecers and English is the mother tongue of 10% of the population. The remaining 8% is divided among some 30 languages such as, in order of importance, Italian, Spanish, Arabic, Chinese and Greek. However, it is very easy to travel in Québec speaking only English. In fact, over 40% of the population is bilingual. In major cities like Montréal, this percentage is as high as 64%, and 16% of the population speaks a third language.

http://wikitravel.org/en/Quebec

BTW- I have lived in Quebec and didn't know ANYONE that could not speak English.