Toronto gun violence leaves two dead

Argus · October 28, 2008

That's not fair. White people belong to gangs and commit acts of violence too.

They do, but in very small numbers. Virtually all the violent street gangs which impact so strongly on the public consciousness with their open gunplay are ethnics. The only white gangs I'm aware of are the biker gangs. But as horrible as those gangs are, and as powerful as they are, they don't have the same impact on the public conciousness because their violence tends to be (outside Quebec) directed internally, and not out in the streets.

Quite frankly, if scumbags kill each other out in the woods, nobody much cares. Doing it outside the Eaton Centre, with bullets flying around frightened witnesses, is quite another thing. I'm not saying that never happens with Whites, but it's almost always non-Whites - even though they make up a minority in this country.

Mr.Canada · October 28, 2008

We definitely need to have a public inquiry into how judges are doing their jobs.

This guy has shot people twice before and is still on the street. This is the third time he's been arrested for shooting someone and this time an innocent bystander died.

He should not have even been out on the street. He had a weapons ban imposed on him the first time and shot someone a second time and now a third.

The judges need to start following the law and end bail for all violent offenders.

This guy, who is still on the lam btw had 6 of 7 charges against him dropped by the crown in 2005 and was deemed a moderate risk to re offend.

This is an outrage!

I'd like too see our judges elected so that they're accountable. Right now they're accountable to the AG and that is a joke.

The time for coddling thugs is over. The time for deal making is over. Time for 3 strikes law is ripe!

The police arrest these thugs and the courts are sending them home with a slap on the wrist. Outrageous.

I have no problem paying more taxes to build more prisons and keeping these people off of our streets.

Edited October 28, 2008 by Mr.Canada

Smallc · October 28, 2008

I'd like too see our judges elected so that they're accountable. Right now they're accountable to the AG and that is a joke.

No they shouldn't be. The last thing e need is to politicize the process.

Kitch · October 28, 2008

They do, but in very small numbers. Virtually all the violent street gangs which impact so strongly on the public consciousness with their open gunplay are ethnics. The only white gangs I'm aware of are the biker gangs. But as horrible as those gangs are, and as powerful as they are, they don't have the same impact on the public conciousness because their violence tends to be (outside Quebec) directed internally, and not out in the streets.
Quite frankly, if scumbags kill each other out in the woods, nobody much cares. Doing it outside the Eaton Centre, with bullets flying around frightened witnesses, is quite another thing. I'm not saying that never happens with Whites, but it's almost always non-Whites - even though they make up a minority in this country.

Well, living in a region of Scarborough where there is quite a bit of gang activity, I can tell you that membership is not really contingent on skin colour. That being said, it could very well be the case that people other than those who are white commit the most violent crimes. (I don't know that this is true, even if we're talking gun violence... watching the news for this sort of information isn't helpful as it is entirely possible that they support a previously held belief rather than broadcast objectively... but who knows either way).

There are other factors that... lead (?) to this sort of violence that need to be considered other than skin colour. People are people and skin colour doesn't change that. But there may be certain aspects of the chosen/unchosen lifestyles that are conducive to violence.

Some people will say looking at a problem like this so closely is 'coddling' or 'weak' as we should solve the problem by simply reducing immigration or increasing standards. I'm not against throwing people in jail who commit violent crimes, especially with guns. But it's not effective (nor is it right) to simply label a group and treat them differently. Ex. Canadians are labelled as peaceful and generous people by those in other countries. Was this clown shooting his gun into a crowd peaceful or generous?

eyeball · October 28, 2008

Was this clown shooting his gun into a crowd peaceful or generous?

He was outside a bar after midnight so chances are he was probably drunk. Apparently some 50% of police calls are in response to incidents of alcohol fuelled violence, usually domestic. I don't think its a coincidence that so many shootings also occur at, in or near bars late at night.

That said, I haven't heard if this shooting was over the selling of pot or something but I wouldn't be surprised, since 90% of these shootings are. If this had been back in the waning days of alcohol prohibition people might have listened to other suggestions on how to respond to this issue but this is the 21st century. We've given up on social engineers and renewed our faith in moral engineering instead, that's why skin colour, race and culture is such an issue with so many people. Well not that many, but they do make a lot of noise and try their best to make it sound like they represent a majority.

Like I said above, stupidity leaves two dead in Toronto.

eyeball · October 28, 2008

Are you saying we should legalize hand guns? Let anyone buy one who wants to?

No, but since we can't seem to stop people from acquiring them I'd rather go after gun manufacturers on the basis of product safety and liability. They should be held accountable and responsible for the harm their products do in the same way anyone else is whose products are deemed unsafe.

This is why we have rules for people who serve alcohol for example. I'd be interested in knowing if the shooter in question had been drinking in the taveren where the incident occurred and exactly how many drinks he'd been served prior to the shooting. This of course shouldn't excuse the shooter's behaviour but all the factors do need to be considered and accountability and responsibility shared by all those concerned. Mind you if that were taken to its logical conclusion we'd also have to include the government(s) that allow the manufacture and sale of the tools criminals use and the maintenance of the stupid laws that are guaranteed to increase the likelyhood they'll use them.

Edited October 28, 2008 by eyeball

guyser · October 28, 2008

No, but since we can't seem to stop people from acquiring them I'd rather go after gun manufacturers on the basis of product safety and liability. They should be held accountable and responsible for the harm their products do in the same way anyone else is whose products are deemed unsafe.

Wont work.

Prove to the court that the gun fired on its own.Prove to the court that the product is unsafe.

If we have a rash of toasters being smashed over heads, can we sue the toast maker for product liability?

Argus · October 28, 2008

No they shouldn't be. The last thing e need is to politicize the process.

Oh please. Our judges are political appointees. The main criteria is sucking up to polticians. In fact, a lot of our judges WERE politicians, given the reward for long years of loyalty to the party.

How could the process be more politicised than Paul Martin appointing two Supreme Court judges based entirely on their gay-friendly agendas?

And yes, judges with agendas, well-noted at the time, and never denied.

M.Dancer · October 28, 2008

Our judges are political appointees.

While supreme court judges are appointed from a list of nominees, I believe most judges that any hoodlum would likely meet are selected on merit with no regard to politics.

In the US all judges are political...they have to run for election under a party banner.

Argus · October 28, 2008

There are other factors that... lead (?) to this sort of violence that need to be considered other than skin colour. People are people and skin colour doesn't change that. But there may be certain aspects of the chosen/unchosen lifestyles that are conducive to violence.

I don't think skin colour has anything to do with it except insofar as skin colour points to ethnicity and thus cultural baggage and background.

Some people will say looking at a problem like this so closely is 'coddling' or 'weak' as we should solve the problem by simply reducing immigration or increasing standards.

Definitely raising standards, and probably removing certain countries from the list, or making it more difficult for people from those countries to come here, ie, Somalia, Haiti, Jamaica, Vietnam, and just about any Muslim country.

Argus · October 28, 2008

While supreme court judges are appointed from a list of nominees, I believe most judges that any hoodlum would likely meet are selected on merit with no regard to politics..

Why do you believe most judges are selected on merit? What evidence do we have of this?

M.Dancer · October 28, 2008

Why do you believe most judges are selected on merit? What evidence do we have of this?

Well off hand I don't have any. But I have known 2 judges and a Justice of the Peace as well as numerous lawyers and that's what I am told. Trial lawyers after putting in years of work vie for the honour much like any plum position in a corporation.

guyser · October 28, 2008

Well off hand I don't have any. But I have known 2 judges and a Justice of the Peace as well as numerous lawyers and that's what I am told. Trial lawyers after putting in years of work vie for the honour much like any plum position in a corporation.

I know 2 judges as well, and both of them would not be considered liberal. They have worked hard to get where they sit, and they love their job.

cybercoma · October 28, 2008

I think more than two have been left dead as a result of gun violence in Toronto.

guyser · October 28, 2008

I think more than two have been left dead as a result of gun violence in Toronto.

Sure has.

Suggesting.....?

Mr.Canada · October 28, 2008

We definitely need to have a public inquiry into how judges are doing their jobs.
This guy has shot people twice before and is still on the street. This is the third time he's been arrested for shooting someone and this time an innocent bystander died.

He should not have even been out on the street. He had a weapons ban imposed on him the first time and shot someone a second time and now a third.

The judges need to start following the law and end bail for all violent offenders.

This guy, who is still on the lam btw had 6 of 7 charges against him dropped by the crown in 2005 and was deemed a moderate risk to re offend.

This is an outrage!

I'd like too see our judges elected so that they're accountable. Right now they're accountable to the AG and that is a joke.

The time for coddling thugs is over. The time for deal making is over. Time for 3 strikes law is ripe!

The police arrest these thugs and the courts are sending them home with a slap on the wrist. Outrageous.

I have no problem paying more taxes to build more prisons and keeping these people off of our streets.

No Bail for violent crimes. Build more prisons, I'll vote for higher taxes if it keeps true Canadians safe.

jdobbin · October 28, 2008

Oh please. Our judges are political appointees. The main criteria is sucking up to polticians. In fact, a lot of our judges WERE politicians, given the reward for long years of loyalty to the party.

So you think elections for judges would improve things?

Mr.Canada · October 28, 2008

So you think elections for judges would improve things?

Soft on crime? No re-election.

As it is now. Soft on crime? See you at the country club.

jdobbin · October 28, 2008

Soft on crime? No re-election.
As it is now. Soft on crime? See you at the country club.

Including the Federal and Supreme Court?

Do you think Crown Prosecutors should be elected? Police Chiefs?

Mr.Canada · October 28, 2008

Including the Federal and Supreme Court?
Do you think Crown Prosecutors should be elected? Police Chiefs?

Like they do in the States. Yes. So not the Supreme courts.

It gives the people power and takes power from the government.

Makes the sitting powers accountable to us, the people.

As it is now, they are accountable to themselves.

Edited October 28, 2008 by Mr.Canada

jdobbin · October 28, 2008

Like they do in the States. Yes. So not the Supreme courts.

Why not? Why deny the Supremes a chance to run?

It gives the people power and takes power from the government.
Makes the sitting powers accountable to us, the people.

As it is now, they are accountable to themselves.

Why give it to the elected judges? Why can't we decide ourselves?

Oleg Bach · October 28, 2008

Why not? Why deny the Supremes a chance to run?
Why give it to the elected judges? Why can't we decide ourselves?

Sincerly I hope not to provoke our more mild minded members - but gun violence is based in abslolute and hysterical hetro-f*g cowardice...If we had a charismatic and manly mayor in Toronto - He would launch an action of total humiliation of the screaming little black and white girls that call themselves men...He would post the fact in every subway that he who uses a gun is a worm - is less a man than those in the gay community - He would reveal that they were bastards that never had fathers to show them what honour bravery and real courage is! He would tell them publically that that POWER is not fear that comes from the power of a gun - but that RESPECT IS POWER - and respect is the transfere of power not the taking of it - we live in a barbarian manless world - and a gun now repaces the penis...damn all the coward - and reveal them --- and I don't give a warm and fuzzy liberal damn on how these bastards got this way - and I do not give a damn about "root causes" the root cause is the feminization of our men.

Kitch · October 28, 2008

I don't think skin colour has anything to do with it except insofar as skin colour points to ethnicity and thus cultural baggage and background.
Definitely raising standards, and probably removing certain countries from the list, or making it more difficult for people from those countries to come here, ie, Somalia, Haiti, Jamaica, Vietnam, and just about any Muslim country.

Come on man. You can't believe that all people from these countries are dangerous or unworthy of coming to Canada. You can't even say that many people who's families have been in Canada for 3, 4, 5 generations are 'worthy' of living here. My family came here from Ireland three generations ago with their cultural baggage of being drunks... and I don't drink.

The answer is not as simple as throwing Canadians in jail indefinitely (depending on... a lot of things) or keeping people from certain countries out of Canada. That's a step in the direction of implementing thought police. I mean, if we're going to prosecute people on suspicion of future crimes, then what else will we do to 'keep Canadians safe'.

I'm all for what I did refer to as an increase in standards, but I think that you and I would have very different ideas about what that would mean.