What if we agreed to re-locate Israel?

[DogOnPorch]

So how does Spain suddenly come to represent all of Western Europe?

Still, I'm interested in the theory that you seem to be implying: there was an expulsion of Jews from Western Europe, and subsequently Western Europe became the dominant region in Europe, not to mention the world. Are you suggesting that there is a connection here?

Instead of getting all huffy and sarcastic, why don't you just discuss the issue in a rational, measured manner?

Don't blame me for your failings in history. The internet has a search function...use it.

BC Chick: There you go again getting all emotional instead of staying focussed.

So.... because he was a Nazi/worked with the Nazi/whatever.... that gives Israel the right to exist on Palestinian land instead of Nazi land (Germany)?

Both sides were given a partition of former Turkish land by the UN (remember them?)...the Arabs wanted the entire pie and went to war. They lost....so goes history. Tried again in 1967...lost. Tried again in 1973...lost. Yet, to the left , Israel is the aggressor. Go figure. Blame the Grand Mufti and his ilk, as mentioned. Nasser as well.

I didn't realize calling the Mufti a Nazi made me 'emotional'. Interesting comment on your part.

-------------------------------------------------

We don't point a pistol at our own forehead. That is not the way to conduct negotiations.

---Benjamin Netanyahu

Edited November 27, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[BC_chick]

Don't blame me for your failings in history. The internet has a search function...use it.

Both sides were given a partition of former Turkish land by the UN (remember them?)...the Arabs wanted the entire pie and went to war. They lost....so goes history. Tried again in 1967...lost. Tried again in 1973...lost. Yet, to the left , Israel is the aggressor. Go figure. Blame the Grand Mufti and his ilk, as mentioned. Nasser as well.

I didn't realize calling the Mufti a Nazi made me 'emotional'. Interesting comment on your part.

-------------------------------------------------

We don't point a pistol at our own forehead. That is not the way to conduct negotiations.

---Benjamin Netanyahu

What makes you emotional is your argument about the grand mufti. You brought it up, I didn't. Yet you haven't elaborated on what his role in the holocaust has to do with Israel's right to exist (the subject that I commenting on when you interjected to bring him up).

Bringing up your granddaddy and all that jazz... sorry it's a little too emotional. Even for you.

Edited November 27, 2008 by BC_chick

[DogOnPorch]

Bringing up your granddaddy and all that jazz... sorry it's a little too emotional. Even for you.

Uncle used to burn Jews, Roma and Commies in barns with a flamethrower.

My aunt (still kickin') is a famous Holocaust survivor.

You should have see our family reunions.

My point re: the Grand Mufti is that his legacy lives on to this day in the form of Hamas, Hezbollah and many other groups. I'd suggest to you that Israel (as an entity) collectively still remembers that point of fact. That there are still Nazis running things on the Arab side. It's quite incredible that Israel doesn't take an even harder line on these groups seeing the history involved. Civilized & hopeful, I suppose.

-------------------------------

Basil: Is there something wrong?

Elder Herr: Will you stop talking about the war?!

Basil: ME?! You started it!

Elder Herr: We did not start it!

Basil: Yes you did — you invaded Poland.

---Fawlty Towers

Edited November 27, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[BC_chick]

My point re: the Grand Mufti is that his legacy lives on to this day in the form of Hamas, Hezbollah and many other groups. I'd suggest to you that Israel (as an entity) collectively still remembers that point of fact. That there are still Nazis running things on the Arab side. It's quite incredible that Israel doesn't take an even harder line on these groups seeing the history involved. Civilized & hopeful, I suppose.

Perhaps you missed this part of my post:

Yet you haven't elaborated on what his role in the holocaust has to do with Israel's right to exist (the subject that I commenting on when you interjected to bring him up).

Edited November 27, 2008 by BC_chick

[DogOnPorch]

Perhaps you missed this part of my post:

The UN gave Israel 'right to exist'. Jews were rewarded with a homeland and so were the Palastinian Arabs. The Mufti led the call to war with the new state of Israel. He lost...now they all cry. Blame the Mufti...and his ilk.

In my opinion, your attitude and a few others are what led to the expulsion of the Jews from various countries. Look up 'Pale of Settlement', for example. Sounds kind of like your "Israel in Germany" plan/idea. Best read your history of the Middle Ages and see how we are merely repeating old stupidities. Israel is where it belongs...in Israel.

--------------------------------------------------

Do not consider it a breach of faith to kill them, the breach of faith would be to let them carry on.

They have violated our covenant with them, so how can you be held guilty against the violators?

How can they have any pact when we are obscure and they are prominent?

Now we are humble, beside them, as if we were wrong and they were right.

--- Abu Ishaq, Grenada, 1066 AD

[BC_chick]

The UN gave Israel 'right to exist'. Jews were rewarded with a homeland and so were the Palastinian Arabs. The Mufti led the call to war with the new state of Israel. He lost...now they all cry. Blame the Mufti...and his ilk.

So let me get this straight....

A group of Western nations (the League of Nations) chose to give land where Arabs have lived for centuries to the Jews. When the Arabs rejected and fought against it, their actions became Dog on Porch's justification for Israel's right to exist.

In other words, we're full circle back to... Israel's right to exist is a priori.

Edited November 27, 2008 by BC_chick

[DogOnPorch]

So let me get this straight....

A group of Western nations (the League of Nations) chose to give land where Arabs have lived for centuries to the Jews. When the Arabs rejected and fought against it, their actions became Dog on Porch's justification for Israel's right to exist.

In other words, we're full circle back to... Israel's right to exist is a priori.

The Jews lived in Poland for 1000 years. Spain for 1500. Look where that got them. Sh*t happens. Sometimes it happens to you. A group of Arabs that chose the wrong side in a war and the wrong thing to do after the war are somehow different? Please...

That's UN, btw...not League of Nations. You're perhaps confusing the Sykes-Picot Agreement/Balfour Declaration with the 1947 event.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan

Blame the Mufti. All roads lead back to him.

-------------------------------

I thought I'd begin by reading a poem by Shakespeare, but then I thought, why should I? He never reads any of mine.

---Spike Milligan

[BC_chick]

The Jews lived in Poland for 1000 years. Spain for 1500. Look where that got them. Sh*t happens. Sometimes it happens to you. A group of Arabs that chose the wrong side in a war and the wrong thing to do after the war are somehow different? Please...

Everything you have mentioned so far about Israel's right to exist is a priori.

At the time a lot of countries were allied with the Nazis and those countries didn't even have land that was being sought after as a Jewish homeland. Does Israel have a right to those lands too?

Edited November 27, 2008 by BC_chick

[DogOnPorch]

Everything you have mentioned so far about Israel's right to exist is a priori.

At the time a lot of countries were allied with the Nazis and those countries didn't even have land that was being sought after as a Jewish homeland. Does Israel have a right to those lands too?

Are you drunk? Post again tomorrow when you make sense.

--------------------------------------

When I wake up early in the morning,

Lift my head, I'm still yawning

When I'm in the middle of a dream

Stay in bed, float up stream...

---The Beatles

[BC_chick]

Are you drunk? Post again tomorrow when you make sense.

I wasn't drunk... but nice evasion. Don't worry though, it's not just you, I understand. Nobody has yet provided a logical explanation for establishing the country of Israel where it is currently located. Logical being the key word there.

Edited November 27, 2008 by BC_chick

[M.Dancer]

I wasn't drunk... but nice evasion. Don't worry though, it's not just you, I understand. Nobody has yet provided a logical explanation for establishing the country of Israel where it is currently located. Logical being the key word there.

There needs to be another "logical" reason besides being the ancestral homeland of the Jews?

How about...there were and have been Jews there for thousands of years and it had better plumbing than Uganda?

[Oleg Bach]

There is mystic reasoning not logical reasoning in the establishment of Israel as where she stands now. It's the holy land and the Christian elite hate to be beaten by Islam...Just look at how pissed off the Queen was when their brood mare Diana was being mounted by an Arab Muslim....she got real personal. The Jews are but care takers of Royal Christian Lands...most just don't know they are mere care takers.

[WIP]

If it was possible to move Israel to another large, empty but arable tract of land, with nice weather, I'll bet at least half of the Israeli population would be in favour of the move.......at least the non-Orthodox half, who don't believe all of the mumbo jumbo about God leading them back to the Promised Land!

Right now, they are living in a rat's nest, surrounded by hostile Arabs, who are going to overrun their country in the coming decades just by virtue of demographics, if nothing else.

[Oleg Bach]

If it was possible to move Israel to another large, empty but arable tract of land, with nice weather, I'll bet at least half of the Israeli population would be in favour of the move.......at least the non-Orthodox half, who don't believe all of the mumbo jumbo about God leading them back to the Promised Land!

Right now, they are living in a rat's nest, surrounded by hostile Arabs, who are going to overrun their country in the coming decades just by virtue of demographics, if nothing else.

All of the spoiled easy goers would go...Orthodox would stay - along with the Orthodox Islmics - and the Orthodox Jews - and Orthodox Christians - and the curious non-committed secularists would hang out hoping to find God..

[DogOnPorch]

I wasn't drunk... but nice evasion. Don't worry though, it's not just you, I understand. Nobody has yet provided a logical explanation for establishing the country of Israel where it is currently located. Logical being the key word there.

Logical...to you? Anyways, Jews were living for centuries in the various Axis lands before the Holocaust. Can you guess what might have happened to them? Here's a clue...

Rome
June 28, 1943
His Excellency
The Minister of Foreign Affairs for Hungary
Your Excellency:

You no doubt know of the struggle between the Arabs and Jews of Palestine, what it has been and what it is, a long and bloody fight, brought about by the desire of the Jews to create a national home, a Jewish State in the Near East, with the help and protection of England and the United States. In fact, behind it lies the hope which the Jews have never relinquished, namely, the domination of the whole world through this Important, strategic center, Palestine. In effect their program has, among other purposes, always aimed at the encouragement of Jewish migration to Palestine and the other countries of the Near East. However, the war, as well as the understanding which the members of the Three-Power Pact have of the responsibility of the Jews for its outbreak and finally their evil intentions towards these countries which protected them until now - all these are reasons for placing them under such vigilant control as will definitely stop their emigration to Palestine or elsewhere.

Lately I have been informed of the uninterrupted efforts made by the English and the Jews to obtain permission for the Jews living in your country to leave for Palestine via Bulgaria and Turkey. I have also learned that these negotiations were successful since some of the Jews of Hungary have had the satisfaction of emigrating to Palestine via Bulgaria and Turkey and that a group of these Jews arrived In Palestine towards the end of last March. The Jewish Agency, which supervises the execution of the Jewish program, has published a bulletin which contains important information on the  current negotiations between the English Government and the governments of other interested states to send the Jews of Balkan countries to Palestine. The Jewish Agency quoted, among other things, its receipt of a sufficient number of immigration certificates for 900 Jewish children to be transported from Hungary, accompanied by 100 adults.

To authorize these Jews to leave your country under the above circumstances and in this way, would by no means solve the Jewish problem and would certainly not protect your country against their evil influence - far from it! - for this escape would make it possible for them to communicate and combine freely with their racial brethren in enemy countries in order to strengthen their position and to exert a more dangerous influence on the outcome of the war, especially since, as a consequence of their long stay in your country they are necessarily in a position to know many of your secrets and also about your war effort. All this comes on top of the terrible damage done to the friendly Arab nation which has taken its place at your side in this war and which cherishes for your country the most sincere feelings and the very best wishes.

This is the reason why I ask your Excellency to permit me to draw your attention to the necessity of preventing the Jews from leaving your country for Palestine and if there are reasons which make their removal necessary, it would be indispensable and infinitely preferable  to send them to other countries where they would find themselves under active control, for example, in Poland, in order thereby to protect oneself from their menace and avoid the consequent damages 

Yours, etc

Source: The Arab Higher Committee. Its Origins, Personnel and Purposes. Documentary Record Submitted to the United Nations, May 1947.
[Letter from Grand Mufti ends here]

And since you weren't drunk, I have to assume you were serious...

BC Chick: Everything you have mentioned so far about Israel's right to exist is a priori.

At the time a lot of countries were allied with the Nazis and those countries didn't even have land that was being sought after as a Jewish homeland. Does Israel have a right to those lands too?

Everything humans do is a construct. Did you think fairies or elves deposited the Arabs in the Levant? No...right? (crosses fingers) How did they get there, then?...in your words, please.

Re: Israel having rights to Axis lands. No...they were given the right to a small chunk of their ancient homeland by the UN...not Rumainia or Bulgaria, etc. They were to share it with the Arabs who are relative newcomers to the region. The Arabs (under the Mufti) rejected the partition and went to war in 1948. The Arabs lost. Had they won, would you be advocating for the Jews as you do for the Arabs? Would you be down at the 'Free Israel' rally? Now there's a question...

Sorry it isn't 3000 words, btw...lol.

------------------------------------------------------

Israel is still the only country in the world against which there is a written document to the effect that it must disappear.

---Menachem Begin

[Ontario Loyalist]

The UN gave Israel 'right to exist'. Jews were rewarded with a homeland and so were the Palastinian Arabs. The Mufti led the call to war with the new state of Israel. He lost...now they all cry. Blame the Mufti...and his ilk.

In my opinion, your attitude and a few others are what led to the expulsion of the Jews from various countries. Look up 'Pale of Settlement', for example. Sounds kind of like your "Israel in Germany" plan/idea. Best read your history of the Middle Ages and see how we are merely repeating old stupidities. Israel is where it belongs...in Israel.

So if the UN gave the Indians in BC the right to a nation, and you happened to be living within the newly created state, and they told you to get out, you would happily leave, right?

[Oleg Bach]

Jews and Germans seem to have come from the same tribe. Two brothers having a feud...I would say that they have gone on for a bit to long...boring!

[M.Dancer]

So if the UN gave the Indians in BC the right to a nation, and you happened to be living within the newly created state, and they told you to get out, you would happily leave, right?

And that is relevant how?

The UN didn't tell anyone to leave.....

......but the arabs did..

Making up hypotheticals that don't mirror what happened is close to lying and very much distorting reality.

........, but seeing that you are such an ardent supporter of the Liberal party--that probably comes naturally to you.

[Oleg Bach]

Don't blame liberal children for their faults. Mum told them that men were angry and bad and that husbands and males had a hormonal problem - that men were of a seperate race and should be persecuted. Liberals .....are just mommas boys - have you noticed that ALL liberal males have a higher register when they speak? I like to call them hetrof*gs... real girly.....So what is a liberal...? Maybe it's just a man who took after his mother..that explains the love of gay marriage - and why the blacks call them mother Fu***s.

[DogOnPorch]

So if the UN gave the Indians in BC the right to a nation, and you happened to be living within the newly created state, and they told you to get out, you would happily leave, right?

Yeah...what M.Dancer said. I don't believe anybody at the UN told anyone in the mandate to leave. Some accounts have Arab leaders requesting the Arab population leave so that they could deal with the Jews properly without fear of friendly casualties. A free fire zone, so to speak. The Arab generals thought they'd easily win. Especially with the help of so many modern allied Muslim armies. But as we know, that didn't work out so well for the Arabs. Similar results occured in 1967 and 1973 when the Arabs thought they were strong enough to crush Israel. They found out the hard way that military results are not simply based on numbers of men thrown into the guns.

It was clearly a case of the Arabs rolling the dice for double or nothing and they came up snake-eyes. Even the Israelis couldn't believe the 1948 results...expecting much, much, worse.

But to answer you basic question, if I was TOLD to leave...I'd probably stay. Depends if the fellow has a gun or not, I suppose, to be realistic. In a way, we already have native indians forming little nations in BC complete with guns and roadblocks.

-------------------------------------------------

I am 73 years old. I was born in Jerusalem. I'm the first prime minister of Israel to be born here. I am the only former general to become a prime minister.

---Yitzhak Rabin: 1995

Edited November 28, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[jbg]

Alos, as of yet, I've never heard of the Jews offering a formal apology for the tens, if not hundred, of thousands of Christians that they persecuted.

And these "persecutions" were comparable in scope somehow to the Holocaust or even the Roman persecutions of Jews that led tothe Bar Kochba (sp) rebellion?

[BC_chick]

Don't blame liberal children for their faults. Mum told them that men were angry and bad and that husbands and males had a hormonal problem - that men were of a seperate race and should be persecuted. Liberals .....are just mommas boys - have you noticed that ALL liberal males have a higher register when they speak? I like to call them hetrof*gs... real girly.....So what is a liberal...? Maybe it's just a man who took after his mother..that explains the love of gay marriage - and why the blacks call them mother Fu***s.

That explains Ann Coulter's adam's apple. {shudders}

[M.Dancer]

And these "persecutions" were comparable in scope somehow to the Holocaust or even the Roman persecutions of Jews that led tothe Bar Kochba (sp) rebellion?

Of course not. And the claim of 10s to 100s of thousands of persecuted Christians is simply false and a gross exaggeration.

Firstly, there is no documentary evidence to back it up. Aside from St. Stephan....the numbers must be somewhere between a handful and a few handfuls.

Secondly, the Jews had no authority to mount a centralised or coordinated persecution. What documentary evidence there is suggests that the Romans considered to hoopla to be internicean, a struggle between the same people as it surely was in the first century, between Jews and messianic Jews and the roman came down hard on both sects for crating public disturbances....

And finally, after 70AD, the Jews were in no position (and by jews I mean of all stripes, Sadducean, Essene and Messianic) to conduct and persecution of any sort. from that period on, the persecutions were against Jews (of all stripes) by gentiles.

[Ontario Loyalist]

And these "persecutions" were comparable in scope somehow to the Holocaust or even the Roman persecutions of Jews that led tothe Bar Kochba (sp) rebellion?

So why exactly are you using quotation marks when you use the word persecutions, and why are you trying to suggest that the persecution of early Christians by Jews is somehow less significant than the Holocaust? It was persecution in its own right and has to be recognized and acknowledged as such. Using your line of reasoning, wouldn't that call into question the "scope" of the Holocaust since in relation to other modern instances of mass extermination, it is not the largest. There isn't even any real evidence to suggest how many people died during the Holocaust; the figure I believe is based on estimates made by high ranking Nazis, men who otherwise wouldn't be given an ounce of credibility. The lack of any significant or reliable documentation of actual figures, using M.Dancer's "logic," would have to lead one to conclude that the Holocaust wasn't as bad as has it has been made out to be. So I guess that make M.Dancer a denier of the persecution of early Christians, along the lines of Holocaust deniers and revisionist historians. Interesting. And I guess you too, then?

[Ontario Loyalist]

Of course not. And the claim of 10s to 100s of thousands of persecuted Christians is simply false and a gross exaggeration.

Relatively speaking, that would be a quite significant number; far exceeding what happened to the Jews during the Holocaust... Oh, but you'll deny that, right.

And finally, after 70AD, the Jews were in no position (and by jews I mean of all stripes, Sadducean, Essene and Messianic) to conduct and persecution of any sort. from that period on, the persecutions were against Jews (of all stripes) by gentiles.

So were talking a 35 year period, which is more than enough time to undertake a systemic persecution of Christians; after, Christians would have been subjected to persecution wherever Judaism was still the dominant culture (or where they aligned with the current political ideology), which includes parts of eastern Europe and southern Russia up until the early 20th century.