Which 'one True God?'

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear all,

Regarding 'Religion and Politics, (the two taboo subjects, I was once told, one should never discuss at dinner)which is the one 'true faith'?

Are those that worship (through means of action) devout, fanatical or heretical? Each religion rewards (both physically and hypothetically) faith and devotion.

Did humans make up scripture? Or did some 'supreme entity' pass down rigid laws (mostly about diet and inheritance rights) that should take precedence over base morality?

Or is 'humankind' at 'the wheel' of destiny?

[Moderate Centrist]

The existence of God can neither be proved nor disproved.

For those who believe no proof is nessessary. For those who don't no proof is enough.

Case closed.

[Elder]

Amen. This is probably pretty high on my list of the world's most useless arguements.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Elder and Moderate Centrist,

The purpose of this thread was not 'is there is or is there ain't' a God, but rather how much is belief allowed to direct human actions.

This is probably pretty high on my list of the world's most useless arguements.

I would love to agree, yet it is more vital to the future than anything currently under discussion. Israel is fighting for existence because of it. It is their 'raison d'etre'. Islam (or factions thereof) are sending out suicide bombers for this.

YThe greatest foly of the west as yet is not to have this as the central issue, for it is the central catalyst.

[Elder]

To your question, belief, whether it be in God or not, has always been deeply involved with our actions and our culture. There are things that you do because you believe you should, and there are things you never do because you believe you shouldn't. Belief not only directs action, but it should also inspire action. My belief in God does strengthen my own moral convictions, but atheists have moral convictions too. God is more of an inspiration to me. If Christ did what he did for me, and he's perfect, why shouldn't I try to follow his example.

This is something that people seem to miss a lot, including religious people. God is not just a law giver, but a source of inspiration. Some of our greates art (Sistine Chapel, Last Supper, etc.) music (don't even get me started on how empty our music culture would be if you take God out of it, oh and I'm not talking about the fads that don't last much more than a couple years, I'm talking about the classics that have lasted centuries) poetry, and literature (most literary allusions are to the Bible) has been inspired by religion. Many atheists cry for God to be removed from our culture. Without God, we wouldn't have much culture, whether you believe in him or not.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Elder,

I, myself, am a devout agnostic. However, I was raised catholic, and cannot deny that it was, to a certain degree, a positive influence.

I believe morality pre-existed religion.

The one thing I have noticed over the years is how the worship of money has replaced the reverence to morality (and God, no matter what religion) and it's growing negative effect on society.

Religion was once the foremost 'devotion', and with it it's platitudes. Now, more that ever, however, I hear sayins like "friends are friends BUT business is business". Which is tantamount to saying, "don't let morality(or the freedom, equality or justice of others ) get in the way of profits.

Morality (and religion) has been usurped from within.

I believe that the 'final battle', or armageddon, if you will, is not going to be a battle between two opposing tribes. I believe it is going to be a monumental struggle within the individual.

[Elder]

Morality (and religion) has been usurped from within.

I believe that the 'final battle', or armageddon, if you will, is not going to be a battle between two opposing tribes.  I believe it is going to be a monumental struggle within the individual.

And I believe it will be both a great martial war and an internal war. Religion has always had a great deal with the individual and his soul. I do agree that there is a great deal of corruption in this largely profit driven world. The commandment "Thou shalt not worship any god's before me" comes to mind. Now usually one thinks of idles, or just any Non-Judeo-Christian god. However, I also think it applies to priorities. If money is more important to you than God, then money is your god.

This said, I don't believe that the place for this battle between profits and prophets belongs in the political scene. The laws can't change a greedy man into a humanitarian. It just doesn't work that way. This is a job for writers to inspire people on to better things, for clergy-men to call their congregations to repentance.

The media could be used in this. Many people believe that the media could be blamed for these problems. I do think that this is true, but I also believe that media can be used the other way. Why not try to get good programing on tv, get good music out. The problem is, is that people aren't educated enough about the media and what strategies it uses on us. If this were to be included in modern education, great things could happen. The answer is not to try to ban bad media, but to try to compete with it, an effort which has gone rather sadly. People give up since they don't get the ratings. Pathetic! You don't need the ratings, but let's get some more voices out there. The fact that public media is largely liberrally influenced and morals aren't heard on television programs for fear that they might offend someone is a sad excuse.

Oh, by the way, I agree, morality existed before religion. Relgion certainly does spread it though. Yes, I believe that God created all things, both in heaven and earth, but I personally believe that morality came into existence at least at the same time as he did. As soon as the first conscious being (who I believe was God) came into existence.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear elder,

Well said.

Sadly, immorality sells better than morality for the media.

However, I also think it applies to priorities. If money is more important to you than God, then money is your god.

Amen. If one only pays weekly lip service (or lip-service weakly) to higher values, and devotes through course of action the majority of their efforts serving another value, it is not hard to see which way things will go.

[Pellaken]

God is God.

there is "true God"

no "religion" has it right, because no one can know the true intent or want of God.

Jesus, Mohammed, Sidharta Guatma (budda) were all nice guys. they were "cool", they were "kind and compassionate" they were "good men" whatever. none of them wanted to destroy earth, they just wanted to warship God as they best saw fit.

my belifs are simple. God does not have a series of intracate commandments or wishes. If you have a kind heart, you will go to 'heaven' and if you dont, then you will go to 'hell'.

It dosent matter weather you go to church, or mosque every day, if you kill somoene and feel nothing, then chances are that you are going to hell.

God, in my opinion, only wants one thing. That is for people to not cause pain to others. Hence, to cause pain to someone else in the name of God is the worst crime of all. Bin Laden, for example. The entirery of both states of Israel and Palistine seem to both think God wants the other dead, and both use the name of God to carry out their own political wants.

God wants peace, and more importantly, Love. Think about it, could Love be anything BUT a force created by God himself?

I beleive that God lives in another plane of existance. God is everywhere yet nowhere. God is love, God is everything we know to exist.

One final thing, God does respect faith. Weather you are Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Jewish, Confusionist, etc... if you have faith, and with that faith are kind and peaceful, then you have done well in the eyes of God.

[Elder]

Good post Pellaken. There's a lot I agree with you on. There are some things that I disagree on though. #1. I believe that God has and still does make his will known to us. #2. I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of the world.

That said, I respect and admire your belief system. Love is central in God's plan, and we should try to have that love ourselves. I do believe God respects all faiths that promote virtue, and loves his children no matter what faith they turn to, and I respect them as well, but I do believe that some faiths can get you closer to knowing him than others. I believe this, yet I know that people of other faiths are trying to get to know him just as hard as I am, and I believe God respects that.

Thelonius, I agree with you whole heartedly on this matter. One of the greatest threats to Christianity are those who pay lip-service weakly/weekly. There are those who seem to be Christian on Sundays, yet throughout the week they are far from the mark. I find this an insult to Christianity.

[KrustyKidd]

Lonius

The one thing I have noticed over the years is how the worship of money has replaced the reverence to morality (and God, no matter what religion) and it's growing negative effect on society.

Religion was once the foremost 'devotion', and with it it's platitudes. Now, more that ever, however, I hear sayins like "friends are friends BUT business is business". Which is tantamount to saying, "don't let morality(or the freedom, equality or justice of others ) get in the way of profits.

Uh oh, here we go again Lonius. Same argument but this time you are trying to crawl in through the kitchen window.

In the past, many people worshipped because of a variety of factors; poverty, hopelessness and having no choice in their lives. Scince then, they have, thanks to industry and such, in a way 'empowered.' Ever notice how the most destitute nations believe in God more than those who have more?

I believe that the 'final battle', or armageddon, if you will, is not going to be a battle between two opposing tribes. I believe it is going to be a monumental struggle within the individual.

Of course it is. All man's cruelty and anger are contained in this sum up. It has been, is, and will be the final battle.

Enough agreeing with you for today. Onto other things...

Elder

This is a job for writers to inspire people on to better things, for clergy-men to call their congregations to repentance.

I think you are on the wrong track here. It is not a taught thing or a forced issue but rather a proggressive evolution of man. As a recent example, we have Iraq and the US. One evil and the other not so evil. Make the evil place not so bad and we are one step closer to being there. Imagine if the whole world was working. Had a job and security. Didn't have to worry about being tortured or being terrorised. A world with simple problems like cancer, why I have only two large screen TVs and Bill Gates has twenty.

To carry it one step closer, what if there were so many public things like parks, transport, entertainment that were cheaply available, what would be the sense in having money?

Watch Star Trek sometime, I used to when I was younger. I remember these people running abround the stars having adventures and whatever but never remembered anybody ever bitching about being short changed on their paycheck.

Sure they had rank and privilages but it seemed more like a communist thing that actually worked. To get to that stage I would imagine you would have to have incentive of some sort. Otherwise it would be the adventures of a group of starving farmers in a potato commune. Spud Trek?

Pellaken

my belifs are simple. God does not have a series of intracate commandments or wishes. If you have a kind heart, you will go to 'heaven' and if you dont, then you will go to 'hell'.

Exactly. While most of the world is hard put trying to add 2 and 2, can't read anything more than basic stuff and don't even know their own country's geography, God is sending us 'encoded messages' that only a few 'enlightened' humans can interpret? If I was a God who wanted things to be known far and wide, I would 'imbed' the message in the human instinct rather than make an ambiguous instruction book. A book that was so importent, yet could and would be interpreted diferently by each one of the six Billion beings I created and send them arguing about it's intent.

Futhermore, I intend on judging these beings in a much more severe way than any court of law on how well they adhere to instructions that I have not made clear. Oh, just in case there are some who think they know what I meant, I contadict rules so many times in the Books that it is not even funny. Duh.

God wants peace, and more importantly, Love. Think about it, could Love be anything BUT a force created by God himself?

Pretty much sums up my belief system. You been reading my mail?

[Elder]

Mr. Kidd, I think you slightly miss-understand me. In my oppinion, the capitalist system is the perfect system for imperfect people. Religion has always had to do with personal choices. One may choose to give to others, or one may choose not too. One always has the freedom to choose their actions (what people don't like to realize is that they are also choosing their consequences). This is why I said that this is more of a job for preachers then for politicians. A law can't make a man more charitable. A change of heart can. Oh, by the way, I was once the worlds biggest Star Trek fan, and yes, they made communism work, simply because there was no money, there was excellent supply, and little demand. If you needed food, you went up to your replicator and asked for it. Sadly, Star Trek is highly idealistic about how the future will be. It will take us quite a while to get to the point both technologically and culturally.

Furthermore, when I said that I believe that God has and still does make his will known to man, I was not refering to "encoded messages" or anything like that. Check James 1:5: "If any of ye lack wisdom, let him ask of God" (italics added). Any man can pray. I do, and I get answers. Nothing like a burning bush are a big booming voice from above mind you, but if you want to know what God wants, why don't you just ask him, with faith mind you. Also, you seem to put a rather harsh slant on God's judgement. #1. I'm glad it's God who's judging me. He knows everything, from what I've done to the intents of my heart when I did it, and I know he'll judge fairly. No one else is qualified to judge me in this manner. #2. I'm not perfect, but with the help of Jesus Christ, I can be redeemed. Thus both absolute justice and mercy are both satisfied. God will judge me, but so long as I have tried my best with what I do know and what I do have, Christ will make up the difference. And of course, this is done because he loves me. "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." Honestly, some times people seem to think that religion is so complicated. It seriously doesn't have to be.

[Michael Hardner]

Religion has always had to do with personal choices. One may choose to give to others, or one may choose not too. One always has the freedom to choose their actions (what people don't like to realize is that they are also choosing their consequences).

I follow what you say, but is also an important element of community in religion. If it weren't for communities, than Judaism and Christianity wouldn't have survived as long as they have. The communities took care of each other, and did their best to follow the laws.

Every religious community has a set of standards, followed by the group. Those who do not follow the standards are shunned from the group.

Now, looking back at 2000+ years of biblical history we generally agree that the laws that were laid down by Moses et al were solid foundations for making a community work.

And those laws have been the basis for many of our laws. Thou shalt not kill is a good one. A community that follows that law is probably a more secure and prosperous one than a community that does not. So we can see that these laws, though divine in origin, are also practical.

And so it goes with charity. A society that takes care of its own is a stronger and more closely knit society. No one can mandate true "charity" - that can only come from the heart.

But it is possible for us to ensure that the most needy of our society is taken care of. And that, to me, is indistinguishable from the philosophy of Christianity.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Mr. Hardner,

And so it goes with charity. A society that takes care of its own is a stronger and more closely knit society. No one can mandate true "charity" - that can only come from the heart.

But it is possible for us to ensure that the most needy of our society is taken care of. And that, to me, is indistinguishable from the philosophy of Christianity.

That seems to me very leftist. I like it.

Charity is counter-productive to the right wing, however. People have said on this forum things like 'greed is good', and ambition is a type of greed, and it makes society work (to paraphrase)'. Is charity then not the opposite of accumulation? Therefore, it must be wrong (according to the right wing).

That is why I do not believe that the vehemently right-wing cannot seriously be religious in any way. Greed is a totally different God than Charity.

[KrustyKidd]

That is why I do not believe that the vehemently right-wing cannot seriously be religious in any way. Greed is a totally different God than Charity.

Right does not mean greed. Rather, to me it means common sense. How can I help you if you won't help yourself? How can I help you if I am not able to help myself? How can I help you if i am trying to protect myself? How can I help you if you won't make the changes necessary so that my help will change you so that you can become self sufficient?

Is charity then not the opposite of accumulation?

Lonius, 'greed is good.' I know you don't believe that but think about this; if we all lived in Nova Satori's Budhist utopia, how would we get the grain from Sask to the Middle east? Who would fix the airplane that flies it there? Who would fly it? How would we feed the guy who is ten thousand miles from home? You need money to do all this as it is fluid. You can't 'wire' a loaf of bread to a starving Somali. you can't deliver food to the same woman when there is warlords who are not as nice as us or you stealing it on arrival.

[Michael Hardner]

That is why I do not believe that the vehemently right-wing cannot seriously be religious in any way.

I can't say that I agree with you completely on this one, but I will agree that I have butted heads (not on this board) with some pretty hard-hearted folks who call themselves Christians.

Quoting scripture doesn't seem to help educate such people, in fact it can sometimes enrage them. There was a virulent anti-Muslim, and ostensibly pro-Christian poster on one board who tried to debate that "turning the other cheek" was not Christian behavior.

[Hugo]

Left-wing politics are very anti-Christian. Communism and socialist ideas revolve around envy and view envy as the primary motivation of human beings. Marxism only functions if you actually feel that a gap between rich and poor is injust. Now, it says three times (in various ways) in the 10 Commandments that you shall not covet what others have nor seek to obtain it for yourself. So, socialism is based upon one of the seven Deadly Sins: envy.

But isn't capitalism based upon greed? No, it isn't. It's based on self-interest, but nobody said that that self-interest had to be about money and wealth. Hardner, Fleabag and others, your very existence proves the hard-heartedness of capitalism wrong. You all live in a capitalist society, so according to leftist theories of capitalism you should all be thinking of Number One right now and trying to screw the other guy to get what you want - but you aren't! Instead, you are decrying that system, and your self-interest is not in wealth but in a genuine concern for your fellow man and the improvement of his condition.

Admittedly, not everybody thinks that way. Christianity teaches us that we are all sinners, without exception, and capitalism is a system designed to acknowledge the omnipresence of sin in humanity while providing means for it to be overcome. Capitalism is a system by which sin, which cannot be overcome in totality, can be harnessed to produce the greatest overall good. Socialism, however, requires each man to be a saint in order to work, which is why it always fails.

[Michael Hardner]

Left-wing politics are very anti-Christian. Communism and socialist ideas revolve around envy and view envy as the primary motivation of human beings. Marxism only functions if you actually feel that a gap between rich and poor is injust. Now, it says three times (in various ways) in the 10 Commandments that you shall not covet what others have nor seek to obtain it for yourself. So, socialism is based upon one of the seven Deadly Sins: envy.

Why is it based upon envy ? I suspect you're saying this because you think that Marxists and socialists are envious. I don't think this is necessarily true.

But isn't capitalism based upon greed? No, it isn't. It's based on self-interest, but nobody said that that self-interest had to be about money and wealth. Hardner, Fleabag and others, your very existence proves the hard-heartedness of capitalism wrong. You all live in a capitalist society, so according to leftist theories of capitalism you should all be thinking of Number One right now and trying to screw the other guy to get what you want - but you aren't! Instead, you are decrying that system, and your self-interest is not in wealth but in a genuine concern for your fellow man and the improvement of his condition.

But we aren't capitalists. Capitalism, according to Marxist theories, makes the workers tools for producing wealth for the upper classes.

But I don't ascribe to the 'capitalism=greed' theory any more than I ascribe to the 'socialism=envy' theory above.

Admittedly, not everybody thinks that way. Christianity teaches us that we are all sinners, without exception, and capitalism is a system designed to acknowledge the omnipresence of sin in humanity while providing means for it to be overcome. Capitalism is a system by which sin, which cannot be overcome in totality, can be harnessed to produce the greatest overall good. Socialism, however, requires each man to be a saint in order to work, which is why it always fails.

The difference between the NDP policies and the CPC policies are relatively slight IMO. Neither party would nationalize industries (as socialists would have done, even thirty years ago) nor would either party drop universal health care coverage.

As is the case with many debates on this board, people are arguing capitalism vs socialism as they existed a long time ago. Today, we have a left-centre hybrid versus a right-centre hybrid.

[Hugo]

Why is it based upon envy ? I suspect you're saying this because you think that Marxists and socialists are envious. I don't think this is necessarily true.

Well, the cry of Marxists is that it's "not fair" that some are rich while most are poor. That's a cry of envy. It's basically a case of seeing something that another person has and wanting it.

If you are not envious - if you answer that you don't care how rich others are - Marxism has nothing left to entice you with.

As is the case with many debates on this board, people are arguing capitalism vs socialism as they existed a long time ago. Today, we have a left-centre hybrid versus a right-centre hybrid.

Certainly this is true. The Communist Party of Canada is never likely to win a single seat, and the Conservatives are really not all that right-wing - most are in favour of state healthcare and some state-run industries, for instance. But my point was simply to illustrate that Christianity and democratic-capitalism are perfectly suited to one another, and that a capitalist can be a good Christian - a better Christian, in fact, than a communist.

[Michael Hardner]

Well, the cry of Marxists is that it's "not fair" that some are rich while most are poor. That's a cry of envy. It's basically a case of seeing something that another person has and wanting it.

Perhaps, assuming they want it for themselves. But even if they want it for themselves, it's not necessarily envy.

If you are not envious - if you answer that you don't care how rich others are - Marxism has nothing left to entice you with.

Unless you're starving and others are getting rich by exploiting you. That kind of injustice can make a Marxist out of almost anybody.

Certainly this is true. The Communist Party of Canada is never likely to win a single seat, and the Conservatives are really not all that right-wing - most are in favour of state healthcare and some state-run industries, for instance. But my point was simply to illustrate that Christianity and democratic-capitalism are perfectly suited to one another, and that a capitalist can be a good Christian - a better Christian, in fact, than a communist.

I agree with you on that. I think scripture crosses political lines.

[Elder]

[

Certainly this is true. The Communist Party of Canada is never likely to win a single seat, and the Conservatives are really not all that right-wing - most are in favour of state healthcare and some state-run industries, for instance. But my point was simply to illustrate that Christianity and democratic-capitalism are perfectly suited to one another, and that a capitalist can be a good Christian - a better Christian, in fact, than a communist.

I agree with you on that. I think scripture crosses political lines.

Amen! It does not matter what political leanings you have, right or left. I like the capitalist system because with it, people who are Christians act by Christian ideals because they choose to act by them, where as in communism, it is forced upon you. I firmly believe that we should have the right to choose between right and wrong. We also have to learn to be responsible for those choices. I'm sure there could be a wonderful communist Christian (however, I'm not aware of many examples, since most of the times that communism is in power, religion is thrown out. That's my main problem with the left), but I think that God wanted us to have the right to choose whether we'd be Christian in our actions.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Hugo,

Greed and envy are one and the same, no? Coveting means that you are envious of another's wealth. The driving principle of capitalism, not socialism.

Capitalism is a system by which sin, which cannot be overcome in totality, can be harnessed to produce the greatest overall good. Socialism, however, requires each man to be a saint in order to work, which is why it always fails.

Capitalism requires man to throw aside saintly aspirations and serve the other God, one which will give him what he covets. Ergo, one must say that God and the commandments were mistaken.

[Hugo]

Greed and envy are different. They are both deadly sins, however. The difference is that capitalism is not driven by greed but by self-interest, and that self-interest does not have to be in money or even in direct benefit to oneself. Last year, the Gates Foundation gave $0.8bn to charitable causes. You are living proof that capitalism does not inevitably produce greedy people.

It is Christian to want to help your fellow man. Capitalism is the system that has done much, much more than any other to improve the standard of living of men and to give them liberties and freedoms. Therefore, it is Christian to be capitalist.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Hugo,

But my point was simply to illustrate that Christianity and democratic-capitalism are perfectly suited to one another, and that a capitalist can be a good Christian - a better Christian, in fact, than a communist.

A capitalist cannot be a Christian at all. They can only parrot the words. They must set aside Christianity from their actions, for its words and meaning appear in no ledger.

What fails to be recognized is that the right believes 'what serves the one helps serve all' according to the 'trickle down theory' of 'Christianity'. What Socialism (and I believe what Christ meant) says is 'what helps all ergo helps the one'. If you believe that there is only two, it makes arriving at the proper answer a whole lot easier.

[KrustyKidd]

At the end of harvest on a commune they divy up the rewards. All go home with their share of the food. Glory be!

Cut me some slack here Lonius, how do you integrate a primitive system into the world today? Are you going to set up a system so have potatos carried by camels to the Middle East to trade for jerry cans of oil? What I mean by this cheap overdramitization is that capitalism breeds innovation. That is what provides the means to feed and house the billions on the planet today. Observe the standard of living between us and the east.

A capitalist cannot be a Christian at all. They can only parrot the words. They must set aside Christianity from their actions, for its words and meaning appear in no ledger.

Hugo brought out an example to blow that theory out of the water - Bill Gates. You have no proof as it's words and meaning appear in no ledger. Whatever system you work under religion is a personal thing. I know you own your own business, therefore you are a captilist. Your views are left so I would find myself hard put to say with cetainty that you are a true Budhist. Have you turned your restaurant over to a charity to run as a soup kitchen? No, you may however do the 'Christian thing' and give out free meals for the homeless every so often. I would. It is a great way to help, great way to loosen the soul, great way to kick start others and a great way to go with another capatalistic sin - advertising.