kengs333 Posted October 17, 2008 Author Report Posted October 17, 2008 In other words if the greens ceased being a one issue party attracting fringe candidates they would be either the Liberals or the NDP...http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/politics/ If you consider the Greens a "one issue party" then so too are the Conservatives... It's too bad that the level of political debate in the country is such that some people can't even get past the point of having little understanding of the platform the other major parties in the system... Unfortunately for you, M.Dancer, Canada doesn't have a one party system... Quote
kengs333 Posted October 17, 2008 Author Report Posted October 17, 2008 Ironically the GPs lost 100% of their seat. Yes the only seat they had in order to help manipulate the media into getting them into the debates, was lost. Seems no Liberals or NDP followed this lead and the GP and NDP votes were about equal, while the Liberals were quite strong. However the CPC Vote Grew and the Greens helped split the vote in That Sunshine Riding.At least its a pretty name for a riding. West Vancouver--Sunshine Coast--Sea to Sky Country Just not Green Sea and Sky often looks Blue It's always been a fairly conservative riding, though... Quote
kengs333 Posted October 17, 2008 Author Report Posted October 17, 2008 The Green party's main problem is that they are not a grass roots party, they have no local riding organization beyond what is needed to hold a rummage sale. All the real parties can count on their grass roots rank and file to work within the riding to ensure the message gets out and the right people are filling the right roles. Instead the Green Party seems to be more ad hoc and instead have tin foil hat tr00thers and all kinds of other fruitcakes at the tiller....imagine the kind they attract for the more mundane jobs!!!I don't see any futire for the party but if they are insistant on being irrelevant they should forget running 308 loopy candidtaes and instead concentrate on a handful of ridings and build their gras roots organization from the ground up. Actually, the local riding is fairly well organized, and there are some ridings like Bruce-Grey-Owen Sound where it is only a matter of time before they get elected. The Greens not having a future is wishful thinking on your part, but I agree that they need to concetrate on specific regions, namely southerwestern Ontario and British Columbia. Quote
kengs333 Posted October 17, 2008 Author Report Posted October 17, 2008 I don't think the Green Party should receive the federal "per voter" subsidy. In fact, parties should receive those subsidies only if they elect an MP that then sit in the House. After all, taxpayers pay for those subsidies and our money should not be used to promote fringe or one issue parties. So who made you Prime Minister all of a sudden? The Greens qualify, so they should receive just like any other party... if not, then why should the Cons be receiving anything? You have to admit the reason the Greens don't have seats is because of the system, not the party. They received over 940,000 votes, enough for 20 or so seats in a PR system. In fact, if we had a PR system, they probably would have gotten 10-12% of the vote... Quote
Moonbox Posted October 17, 2008 Report Posted October 17, 2008 I agree they should get the per vote money. I don't understand how anyone could dispute that. I don't think they deserve any seats though. If you can't garner enough support for even a single community to elect you in a federation then you'll continue to strike out. Quote "A man is no more entitled to an opinion for which he cannot account than he does for a pint of beer for which he cannot pay" - Anonymous
PoliticalCitizen Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 The Green party's main problem is that they are not a grass roots party, they have no local riding organization beyond what is needed to hold a rummage sale. All the real parties can count on their grass roots rank and file to work within the riding to ensure the message gets out and the right people are filling the right roles. Instead the Green Party seems to be more ad hoc and instead have tin foil hat tr00thers and all kinds of other fruitcakes at the tiller....imagine the kind they attract for the more mundane jobs!!!I don't see any futire for the party but if they are insistant on being irrelevant they should forget running 308 loopy candidtaes and instead concentrate on a handful of ridings and build their gras roots organization from the ground up. They finished second in: Central Nova - 32.2% Bruce--Grey--Owen Sound - 27.2% They were in a strong third place in Guelph and Vancouver Centre. I can't see any one riding that they could take just yet... Quote You are what you do.
M.Dancer Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 They finished second in:Central Nova - 32.2% In a 2 party race...... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 So who made you Prime Minister all of a sudden? The Greens qualify, so they should receive just like any other party... if not, then why should the Cons be receiving anything?You have to admit the reason the Greens don't have seats is because of the system, not the party. That is ridiculous. That is to say if they were another party and got seats, it would be because of the system?? No it is the parrty not the system. 1) The Greens are incompetent and inept when it comes to running a campaign. (mays whistle stop.....yeah lets go out to a 3 am rally while the train stops for 5 miniutes) 2) They fail to grasp the system so they whine like 9 year olds about the system... 3) The public knows this and that explains why they can only attract fringe voters..ie 7 out of a 100. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
kengs333 Posted October 18, 2008 Author Report Posted October 18, 2008 That is ridiculous. That is to say if they were another party and got seats, it would be because of the system?? The Cons got 38% of the vote and something like 46% of the seats, while also losing about 200,000 votes from 2006. 3) The public knows this and that explains why they can only attract fringe voters..ie 7 out of a 100. So if you took 100 people and executed 7 of them, would that be insignificant because they represented a small minority of the 100? In our society, we (should) value and respect every life, and this should be reflected in our political system. Again, I think if we had a system where every vote counted, more people who want to vote Green would, rather than voting strategically. Also, because they are excluded from parlaiment, they get little recognition between elections when most people don't pay attention to politics. So 7% is actually pretty good, considering where they were a decade ago. Keep in mind, they are the only major party I believe that increased its popular vote count... Quote
kengs333 Posted October 18, 2008 Author Report Posted October 18, 2008 In a 2 party race...... I thought the NDP was strong in that riding? Quote
madmax Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 They finished second in:Central Nova - 32.2% Well that is the end of the line for May in Central Nova. The Liberals will run a Candidate next time, and the NDP vote won't likely drift to her again. Particularly because of her poor showing compared to the NDP challenge of 2 years ago, against the Conservative Incumbent and a competent Liberal Campaign not capitulation. Her results being worse then the previous NDP candidate has people talking and wondering what all the noise was. And if she does leave Central Nova, there isn't much there for any GP candidate to ride on. Bruce--Grey--Owen Sound - 27.2% Perhaps the only place with Potential, yet a lower result then in the Provincial election. They went down while running a Pro Nuclear Candidate. I don't expect the LPC to sit on their hands there any longer.They were in a strong third place in Guelph and Vancouver Centre. Guelph has got to be a major disappointment for Greens. Really not alot of votes for all the hype that they were going to WIN the riding. The Battle was between the LPC and the CPC and the LPC showed its strength as a Brand. OF course this was to be a CPC pickup that didn't happen, and the NDP was written off in Guelph did far better then expected, thus Guelph has the future potential for four party races, which is good for democracy. (Just don't have 74 day campaigns again . The CPC was failing in the By Election and drove home their vote in the National Campaign. I can't see any one riding that they could take just yet... A position felt in the Globe and Mail as well. Quote
M.Dancer Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 I thought the NDP was strong in that riding? As in strong they have always come third strong? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
kengs333 Posted October 18, 2008 Author Report Posted October 18, 2008 A position felt in the Globe and Mail as well. Hmmm... who was it that they endorsed, again? Quote
M.Dancer Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 So if you took 100 people and executed 7 of them, would that be insignificant because they represented a small minority of the 100? In our society, we (should) value and respect every life, and this should be reflected in our political system. Then if we allow the Green voters to live will you stop your incessant whining and whinging? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 Again, I think if we had a system where every vote counted, ..... It's thinking on these lines that renders the Greens irrelevant. We already have a system where every vote counts. the greatest single block counts for the winner, the rest for the losers. The greens are adament they will count losing votes so they will alwayts lose and will remain inconsequential. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
kengs333 Posted October 18, 2008 Author Report Posted October 18, 2008 Then if we allow the Green voters to live will you stop your incessant whining and whinging? Try answering the question with a suitable response. Quote
kengs333 Posted October 18, 2008 Author Report Posted October 18, 2008 It's thinking on these lines that renders the Greens irrelevant. We already have a system where every vote counts. the greatest single block counts for the winner, the rest for the losers. The greens are adament they will count losing votes so they will alwayts lose and will remain inconsequential. Interesting. The Greens are irrelevant. So why is it then that the Cons, Liberals, and NDP have all modified their environmental policies to mitigate against losing votes to the Green Party? Hmmm... Well, if you can so easily dismiss the concerns of 940,000+ of your fellow Canadians, then it only speaks to your lack of concern for democracy in this country. Maybe one day you'll get your dream of a one-party system, but until then you'll just have to accept the fact that other parties are legitimate too... Quote
M.Dancer Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 Try answering the question with a suitable response. There was a question? I didn't see any question marks. Generally a question has a question mark at the end of it an. d is phrased in such a way as to make sound like a question. I only saw a nonsensical statement, a foolish opinion which, I must say, I addressed adroitly. If you have a question, I'm sure I can answer it. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 Interesting. The Greens are irrelevant. So why is it then that the Cons, Liberals, and NDP have all modified their environmental policies to mitigate against losing votes to the Green Party? Hmmm... Yeah The liberals copied the greens... How did that work for them? You must be so young you think the Green Party invented environmental issues..... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 Well, if you can so easily dismiss the concerns of 940,000+ of your fellow Canadians, then it only speaks to your lack of concern for democracy in this country. Maybe one day you'll get your dream of a one-party system, but until then you'll just have to accept the fact that other parties are legitimate too... I dismess them because I believe in democracy. Democracy isn't about listening and following the demands of every fruitcake and nutbar old enough to make an X. It' about abiding by the decisions of the majority...and the greens are such a minority their leader is irrelevant and their party irrelevant. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
kengs333 Posted October 18, 2008 Author Report Posted October 18, 2008 Yeah The liberals copied the greens... How did that work for them? You must be so young you think the Green Party invented environmental issues..... The Green Party exists because none of the other parties were taking the environment seriously... Quote
kengs333 Posted October 18, 2008 Author Report Posted October 18, 2008 I dismess them because I believe in democracy. Democracy isn't about listening and following the demands of every fruitcake and nutbar old enough to make an X. It' about abiding by the decisions of the majority...and the greens are such a minority their leader is irrelevant and their party irrelevant. Nope. Democracy is about the population being represented in a forum like a Parlaiment, regardless of what their political outlook is. It's not for any one person to decide what is legitimate or not. So if 7% of the population is concerned about the environment, then those 7% should be represented by that proportion of the members of the respective forum. Most democracies have figured this out, too bad Canada can't--and yet we still act as though we're one of the true democracies out there... Quote
M.Dancer Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 The Green Party exists because none of the other parties were taking the environment seriously... It exists because there are fruitcakes like tr00thers and Shavluk. No more, no less. The parties take things as seriously as their members do. If the Geens with their "passion" were members of the other parties then they would either be taken seriously by the majority or they wouldn't. As it stands I would say that the membership of the greens has very few ex conservatibes or liberals but plenty of tr00thers and shavluks. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
kengs333 Posted October 18, 2008 Author Report Posted October 18, 2008 It exists because there are fruitcakes like tr00thers and Shavluk. No more, no less. The parties take things as seriously as their members do. If the Geens with their "passion" were members of the other parties then they would either be taken seriously by the majority or they wouldn't. As it stands I would say that the membership of the greens has very few ex conservatibes or liberals but plenty of tr00thers and shavluks. There are probably former supporters of every major party in the Green Party. Quote
M.Dancer Posted October 18, 2008 Report Posted October 18, 2008 Nope. Democracy is about the population being represented in a forum like a Parlaiment, regardless of what their political outlook is. It's not for any one person to decide what is legitimate or not. So if 7% of the population is concerned about the environment, then those 7% should be represented by that proportion of the members of the respective forum. Most democracies have figured this out, too bad Canada can't--and yet we still act as though we're one of the true democracies out there... Again, another example of why the Greens don't get it and why they will always lose. That 7% are represented. Everyone in Canada is represented. It's just most Canadians don't act like snot nosed whiny 3 year olds if their candidate doesn't win. If the greens were smart, and they're not, they would be writing their MPs , attending local planning meetings, pressing the flesh, joining commitees.... working the system that they seem to stunned to understand. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
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