madmax Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 Wrong. It had to do with the party leadership and the desire of party members not to conform to the system. Jim Harris managed to change this perspective; by making the party more mainstream, it began to grow and has become what it is now. This caused some of the diehards to form a new party that eventually floundered. Whatever the case, it unfortunately takes money for a party to exist in our political system. That's how the Reform Party emerged so quickly, which in a way is kind of ironic... Your from Caledonia.... mainstream eh? Conservative Diane Finley 19,657 40.83% -7.47% Liberal Eric Hoskins 15,577 32.35% -1.95% New Democrat Ian Nichols 5,549 11.53% -1.27% Independent Gary McHale 4,821 10.01% +10.01% Green Stephana Johnston 2,041 4.24 +0.74% 4% is not mainstream. It is less then the Non Mainstream Candidate Gary McHale received, and he will get his deposit and expenses back. The first two Candidates are mainstream, the 3rd belongs to a mainstream party who finished ahead of the independent. The GP came nowwhere near mainstream in a rural farming community, with alot of small towns and villages. It also never connected with the serious problem in Caledonia. It finished last, and significantly behind the independent. 45,604 people in your riding did not vote Green. 2041 did. You may be vocal on the internet, but the silent majority in your riding is the 96% not in support of the Green Party. Quote
kengs333 Posted October 22, 2008 Author Report Posted October 22, 2008 This is a good reason why greens should consider all moving to somewhere and call it green city or something and then bask in having a seat, or atleast 1 place per region or something. Perhaps find some green comapnies and covens and start up a spiral scouts group. I've been thinking this for awhile, but people just can't uproot their lives for the sake of a political gamble. Still, for anyone interested, one likely candidate is Orillia, Ontario and the surrounding area. The Greens have done very well in the region both federally and provincially. Quote
kengs333 Posted October 22, 2008 Author Report Posted October 22, 2008 Your from Caledonia.... mainstream eh?4% is not mainstream. It is less then the Non Mainstream Candidate Gary McHale received, and he will get his deposit and expenses back. The first two Candidates are mainstream, the 3rd belongs to a mainstream party who finished ahead of the independent. The GP came nowwhere near mainstream in a rural farming community, with alot of small towns and villages. It also never connected with the serious problem in Caledonia. It finished last, and significantly behind the independent. 45,604 people in your riding did not vote Green. 2041 did. You may be vocal on the internet, but the silent majority in your riding is the 96% not in support of the Green Party. A party that runs over 300 candidates and gets 940,000 votes isn't "mainstream"? Until you can grasp basic aspects of politics such as registered parties are legitimate parties and parties that receive numerous votes and have an organized party structed are "mainstream", then discussion is useless. Quote
M.Dancer Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 A party that runs over 300 candidates and gets 940,000 votes isn't "mainstream"? Until you can grasp basic aspects of politics such as registered parties are legitimate parties and parties that receive numerous votes and have an organized party structed are "mainstream", then discussion is useless. A party that averages little more than 3000 votes per candidate is not mainstream? A party that gets so few endorsements is the definition of fringe? Whether a party is registered on not has little to do with whether it is out of touch? The Communist party of Canada is registered? The Communist party must be mainstream? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
madmax Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 I've been thinking this for awhile, but people just can't uproot their lives for the sake of a political gamble. Still, for anyone interested, one likely candidate is Orillia, Ontario and the surrounding area. The Greens have done very well in the region both federally and provincially. I like Orillia Orillia is known as the "Sunshine City", taking the moniker from the Sunshine Sketches by Stephen Leacock. Many local businesses also use "Mariposa" in their names. The city council actively restricts the construction of large buildings downtown and seeks to maintain a certain "small town" look with regard to signs and decorations.Many tourists and boaters are attracted to the city each year because of its waterfront park and its position as a gateway to Lake Country, cottage country in Muskoka, Algonquin Provincial Park, and other natural attractions. The city's waterfront has an extensive lakeshore boardwalk, a large park with two beaches, several playgrounds, an outdoor theatre, a touring ferry, and a children's' train. The city of Orillia also is home to a large number of retirement homes (currently 9, with 4 more under construction). As such, it is often characterized as a "retirement community", although less than 18% of the city's population is actually over 65 (see below). Orillia is home to an annual Perch Fishing Festival. Perch are netted, tagged, and released into the local lake, to be caught for prize money. This event also includes a large social gathering consisting of a "perch fry". Other popular annual festivals include the Leacock Festival, Blues Festival, Jazz Festival,Scottish Festival, and Beatles Festival (newly added to the city in September 07) The Port of Orillia holds an annual "Christmas in June", which includes a boat decorating contest and turkey buffet, every June 24. Also, boat and cottage shows are held in June and August. Orillia is the original and current site of the popular Mariposa Folk Festival. The Mariposa Party is fun... Quote
Mr.Canada Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 Either that or try to change the electoral system.We choose to do the latter. I heard no outcry to change it when the Liberals were winning elections. Only now that your guy/gal didn't get in. The person with the most votes wins, what's fairer than that? Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
PoliticalCitizen Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 I heard no outcry to change it when the Liberals were winning elections. Only now that your guy/gal didn't get in. The person with the most votes wins, what's fairer than that? How about fair representation? Quote You are what you do.
M.Dancer Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 How about fair representation? everyone is represented by their MP. Can't get any more fair than that. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Mr.Canada Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 (edited) How about fair representation? Ok, I'll bite PoliticalCitizen. How isn't Canada being fairly represented? EDIT- @M.Dancer - exactly. Edited October 22, 2008 by Mr.Canada Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
PoliticalCitizen Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 everyone is represented by their MP. Can't get any more fair than that. BS (How's that for a 2-letter beating your one-liner?) Quote You are what you do.
PoliticalCitizen Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 Ok, I'll bite PoliticalCitizen. How isn't Canada being fairly represented?EDIT- @M.Dancer - exactly. 10% of the population who voted BQ got 50 seats. 7% of the population who voted Green got 0 seats. Doesn't get any more blunt than that. Quote You are what you do.
Mr.Canada Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 10% of the population who voted BQ got 50 seats.7% of the population who voted Green got 0 seats. Doesn't get any more blunt than that. I see your point but the BQ only runs candidates in Qc plus they are a populist party. The Greens are more of a fringe party and run candidates in all 308 ridings. The BQ have a concentrated base of support and have developed that. The Greens do not and have not. Not really fair to compare those two. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
PoliticalCitizen Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 (edited) I see your point but the BQ only runs candidates in Qc plus they are a populist party. The Greens are more of a fringe party and run candidates in all 308 ridings. The BQ have a concentrated base of support and have developed that. The Greens do not and have not. Not really fair to compare those two. At a national level - it is fair to compare them. Do the votes of the green supporters amount to nothing? Are we second-class citizens? How could the current state of affairs NOT be wrong? Edited October 23, 2008 by PoliticalCitizen Quote You are what you do.
M.Dancer Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 Do the votes of the green supporters amount to nothing? Are we second-class citizens? No more or less than anyone who voted for either a canaditae who won or lost. You still are represented by an MP. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Mr.Canada Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 No more or less than anyone who voted for either a canaditae who won or lost. You still are represented by an MP. Alright M.Dancer who spiked your coffee this morning, you're making a lot of sense today. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
PoliticalCitizen Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 No more or less than anyone who voted for either a canaditae who won or lost. You still are represented by an MP. Correct. But just because we have some representation doesn't make it FAIR that 7% of this country's voters have not seen their will materialized in the parliament. Quote You are what you do.
madmax Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 10% of the population who voted BQ got 50 seats.7% of the population who voted Green got 0 seats. Doesn't get any more blunt than that. 7% in any riding will not win you a seat. All the GP had to do to win a single seat after 25 years trying, is get close to 35% of the vote. A minority vote is all it takes to win a seat. The Communist Party, even when BANNED as a political party managed to win seats. Independents have managed to win seats. While I recognize that seat distribution is often unfair, the failure to win a single seat in a Nationally run Campaign is purely a reflection of the party. The Progressive Conservative Party was reduced to 2 seats in 1993, yet had 2,186,422 votes. Not a fair distribution by any means. Yet even they could send two MPs to work in a Smart Car. (Back then we said Corvette) While you criticise that the BQ received only 10% of the vote. Let it be known that in 1993 they received 1,846,000 votes while only running 75 Candidates. Today. The BQ ran only 75 Candidates and received 1,379,000 votes. Which averages to 18,386 votes per candidate. The GP ran 303 Candidates and received 940,000 thus 3,100 votes per candidate. To disregard the strength of the BQ is folley. Then to compare the GP numbers in Quebec, the % of votes cast is that much lower then the 3,100 votes. The Block is a Quebec, Separatist party and it is called a BLOCK to do just that. BLOCK. If you want to look at this evenly. How many votes did the GP receive in Quebec with Their 72 Candidates. What the GP has a habit of doing, is stating how many votes they received across Canada, then compare them to the number of votes other parties received in a Province such as Sask or Quebec or Alberta. Such as the GP had 900,000 votes across Canada but got no seats in Sask while the CPC won the Majority of Seats with a few hundred thousand votes. The GP fails to mention the quantity of votes they received in these Provinces. Such as this GP result in 2008 Quebec was a disappointment, dropping in 54 of 72 ridings That said, all parties, national parties, registered parties, know and run candidates under the current election law. So while the BQ received alot of seats. Lets look at the other parties in Quebec BQ 1,379,000 = 18,386 The LPC 859,000 = 11,608 The CPC 784,000 = 10,400 The NDP 441,000 = 6041 The GP 126,000 = 1750 votes per candidate (this isn't worth a seat to me under any circumstances.) One can argue that they are the most popular party in Quebec. Quote
Mr.Canada Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 A minority government is exactly what the BQ want so they can pressure the sitting government to their means. For once madmax we agree. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
Alta4ever Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 How about fair representation? Fair representation is majority rule. In each riding the candidate with the majority won. Quit whinning we on the right had to deal with this for a long time. Some a advice, pick a couple of ridings where your party could possibly win, start work now not 3 months before the election, get a real organization going and pour money and advertising into it, recuirt a good candidate and that will give you a real start to a party that will maybe start a snowball effect. Whinning will do nothing to furthur your cause. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
William Ashley Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 everyone is represented by their MP. Can't get any more fair than that. Represented how, if i I ask my MP to say something in parliament and they say no, or I propose a private members bill and they say they dont have time to address it in parliament how is this representation.. what if I have concerns about specific practices of government and they are in power so they dont want to spoil their own government, how is this representation? Quote I was here.
William Ashley Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 (edited) Fair representation is majority rule. In each riding the candidate with the majority won. Quit whinning we on the right had to deal with this for a long time. Some a advice, pick a couple of ridings where your party could possibly win, start work now not 3 months before the election, get a real organization going and pour money and advertising into it, recuirt a good candidate and that will give you a real start to a party that will maybe start a snowball effect. Whinning will do nothing to furthur your cause. Hardly fair, majority speech soley is not fairness it is unfair rule.. the prospect of a government is that the minority is protected by the right to communication, not majority rule to oppress the minority. Your fairness is total lies. Wake up, the majority will never be representative of the minority unless it is composed of a miinority that can communicate with the majority. An absence of minority speech is a failure of democracy and expresses why the first past the post is a failure of democracy and why the commons of canada is a failure of democracy Also you are clueless when you think a riding that the winning canidate getting 36.1% and the second place finisher getting 36% received the majority...they had a narrow margin.. and of the 60% of people who voted of age, that is only 18% of the voting population.. hardly a majority. It is a fraction or a minority of the support. First past the post is a failure of democracy and that is why canada's commons is a failure of democracy and why canada is a failure of democracy 0.1% of 60% is not a majority, it never has and never will be. Edited October 22, 2008 by William Ashley Quote I was here.
Alta4ever Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 Hardly fair, majority speech soley is not fairness it is unfair rule.. the prospect of a government is that the minority is protected by the right to communication, not majority rule to oppress the minority. Your fairness is total lies. Wake up, the majority will never be representative of the minority unless it is composed of a miinority that can communicate with the majority.An absence of minority speech is a failure of democracy and expresses why the first past the post is a failure of democracy and why the commons of canada is a failure of democracy Also you are clueless when you think a riding that the winning canidate getting 36.1% and the second place finisher getting 36% received the majority...they had a narrow margin.. and of the 60% of people who voted of age, that is only 18% of the voting population.. hardly a majority. It is a fraction or a minority of the support. First past the post is a failure of democracy and that is why canada's commons is a failure of democracy and why canada is a failure of democracy Your full of it 1. Life isn't about what is fair it is about what is equitable. To think otherwise puts you in the same mindset as most kindergarteners. I Guess you still haven't learned that one major life lesson life isn't fair get over it. 2. How can a minority impose their will on the majority, please how does this work, this sounds like a totalitarian society were democracy doesn't work. Its sounds like a bunch of ruling elite nonsense. Churchill said it best, "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried." The fundamental lesson of democracy is everybody has a say but those with the majority win. As for your example, it doesn't matter that they were close it matters that one person had more support. Out of all the candidates one got the most support, and its not like its an appointment for life, loof at Rahim Jaffer. He got replaced and it can happen during any election. Minority rule is a failure of democracy, if you don't believe me see any country that has had a monarchy, dictator, or totalitarian system. See Iraq, Iran, USSR, China, Revolutionary France and Napoleon, Italy, ect. We could go on and on for days. If you want your ideas that are held by the minority to become those of the mainstreams, I suggest you start selling to the masses, and stop whining, but I think most people know what your proposing is and what it would do to any democracy. Not to mention those of us who see this for what it is and will do everything possible to stop the subversion of democracy in this country. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
M.Dancer Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 Your full of it 1. Life isn't about what is fair it is about what is equitable. Stop it, you're killing me.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
William Ashley Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 (edited) Your full of it 1. Life isn't about what is fair it is about what is equitable. To think otherwise puts you in the same mindset as most kindergarteners. I Guess you still haven't learned that one major life lesson life isn't fair get over it. 2. How can a minority impose their will on the majority, please how does this work, this sounds like a totalitarian society were democracy doesn't work. Its sounds like a bunch of ruling elite nonsense. Churchill said it best, "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried." The fundamental lesson of democracy is everybody has a say but those with the majority win. As for your example, it doesn't matter that they were close it matters that one person had more support. Out of all the candidates one got the most support, and its not like its an appointment for life, loof at Rahim Jaffer. He got replaced and it can happen during any election. Minority rule is a failure of democracy, if you don't believe me see any country that has had a monarchy, dictator, or totalitarian system. See Iraq, Iran, USSR, China, Revolutionary France and Napoleon, Italy, ect. We could go on and on for days. If you want your ideas that are held by the minority to become those of the mainstreams, I suggest you start selling to the masses, and stop whining, but I think most people know what your proposing is and what it would do to any democracy. Not to mention those of us who see this for what it is and will do everything possible to stop the subversion of democracy in this country. Are you trying to prove my point. Just some points 1. Canada is a minority government by the conservatives, the first past the post system for the most part insures a minority representation in the commons, and insures no representation in the senate. The GG and Queen are mostly executive and are more directive and active than propositional. 2. Canada is a monarchy so your comments about countries with monarchies is also off on that. I am hardly whining it is you who is in denile and either really stupid or a lier. Even you can learn so don't give up hope. Nothing personal just stating facts. Edited October 22, 2008 by William Ashley Quote I was here.
M.Dancer Posted October 22, 2008 Report Posted October 22, 2008 Represented how, if i I ask my MP to say something in parliament and they say no, or I propose a private members bill and they say they dont have time to address it in parliament how is this representation.. what if I have concerns about specific practices of government and they are in power so they dont want to spoil their own government, how is this representation? The MP represents the riding collectively and by extension, you. They are not your personal mouth piece. Do you really think because you vote for someone and they get elected they will table your suggestion as a Private members bill? They will look at it if the bill concerns their riding but really....how naive. Doesn't anyone now what MPs do for their ridings? They will listen to you though if you feel you are being unfairly treated by revenue canada, or that you would like government help for a local inititive.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
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