Dion and Clarity

[noahbody]

There seems to be a lot of Canadians out there ready to vote for the Greenshift. What they've been told is that it's a tax shift from the taxing the things we want to taxing things we don't want. Many seem to be under the impression that there's really no cost to them as Dion claims every dollar that comes in will be given back as a tax cut.

In advertising, this is called a truth well told. However, it is terribly misleading. The plan may be revenue neutral, but it is in no way cost neutral. It will increase the cost of everything we buy. What will cost this cost the average Canadian at the end of the day? Dion can't tell you. He doesn't want to discuss the subject. He just keeps repeating the propaganda slogans. Hoping you'll vote without clarity.

Do you think he's been clear?

[Barts]

There seems to be a lot of Canadians out there ready to vote for the Greenshift. What they've been told is that it's a tax shift from the taxing the things we want to taxing things we don't want. Many seem to be under the impression that there's really no cost to them as Dion claims every dollar that comes in will be given back as a tax cut.

In advertising, this is called a truth well told. However, it is terribly misleading. The plan may be revenue neutral, but it is in no way cost neutral. It will increase the cost of everything we buy. What will cost this cost the average Canadian at the end of the day? Dion can't tell you. He doesn't want to discuss the subject. He just keeps repeating the propaganda slogans. Hoping you'll vote without clarity.

Do you think he's been clear?

Here's what I know for sure, less than 72 hours before the polls open. Stephen Harper is a known liar. A list is not necessary but the most recent revelation is his lie about the Cadman tape being doctored. Stephane Dion, so far as I know, hasn't lied about anything. That doesn't mean a Dion lie won't surface at some point.

As of now, I don't trust a word Harper says, based on his past performance. So, I'll take my chances on Dion, and give him the benefit of the doubt until he demonstrates, like Harper, that he can 't be trusted.

Now, as for the Green Shift making costs go up, that's a crock, if the Green Shift is revenue neutral. A company's taxes stay the same, but are shifted from a tax on its profits to a tax on the energy it uses. Conserve energy and save on taxes. Same math happens for ordinary citizens.

[CrazeeEddie]

There seems to be a lot of Canadians out there ready to vote for the Greenshift. What they've been told is that it's a tax shift from the taxing the things we want to taxing things we don't want. Many seem to be under the impression that there's really no cost to them as Dion claims every dollar that comes in will be given back as a tax cut.

In advertising, this is called a truth well told. However, it is terribly misleading. The plan may be revenue neutral, but it is in no way cost neutral. It will increase the cost of everything we buy. What will cost this cost the average Canadian at the end of the day? Dion can't tell you. He doesn't want to discuss the subject. He just keeps repeating the propaganda slogans. Hoping you'll vote without clarity.

Do you think he's been clear?

Did you start this thread just to type the name Dion in a negative connotation again? There are plenty of threads discussing this already.

[independent]

There seems to be a lot of Canadians out there ready to vote for the Greenshift. What they've been told is that it's a tax shift from the taxing the things we want to taxing things we don't want. Many seem to be under the impression that there's really no cost to them as Dion claims every dollar that comes in will be given back as a tax cut.

In advertising, this is called a truth well told. However, it is terribly misleading. The plan may be revenue neutral, but it is in no way cost neutral. It will increase the cost of everything we buy. What will cost this cost the average Canadian at the end of the day? Dion can't tell you. He doesn't want to discuss the subject. He just keeps repeating the propaganda slogans. Hoping you'll vote without clarity.

Do you think he's been clear?

QUOTE(independent @ Oct 11 2008, 09:44 AM)

The quotes below are from Maclean's oct 13 2008 Edition.

"Harper has a Green plan too, though he'd rather not talk about it right now by Andrew Coyne."

"In sum, the conservatives plan is just as costly as the Liberals', twice as complicated, and half as effective."

"not long ago,Stephen Harper was warning in interviews of the 'very real costs' pf a Conservative plan to cut emissions. No longer."

"well now it's october,in the middle of an election campaign,and Stephen Harper no longer wants to talk about the costs of his environmental plan. Indeed, he never even mentions his plan."

According to the article Harper stated his plan in an exclusive article with the Globe and Mail early last year.

[noahbody]

Stephane Dion, so far as I know, hasn't lied about anything. That doesn't mean a Dion lie won't surface at some point.

Wouldn't you call misleading you being honest?

Now, as for the Green Shift making costs go up, that's a crock, if the Green Shift is revenue neutral. A company's taxes stay the same, but are shifted from a tax on its profits to a tax on the energy it uses. Conserve energy and save on taxes. Same math happens for ordinary citizens.

Thanks for proving my point. The Greenshift is revenue neutral for the government, not for companies or individuals. You don't know what you're voting for.

[noahbody]

QUOTE(independent @ Oct 11 2008, 09:44 AM)

The quotes below are from Maclean's oct 13 2008 Edition.

Are you a psychic?

[Argus]

Now, as for the Green Shift making costs go up, that's a crock, if the Green Shift is revenue neutral. A company's taxes stay the same, but are shifted from a tax on its profits to a tax on the energy it uses. Conserve energy and save on taxes. Same math happens for ordinary citizens.

Another fairy tale believer. Another who thinks money is grown from magic beans. Tens of billions of dollars are supposed to go to poverty reduction plans, and nobody has to pay for any of it! Everyone's taxes go down or stay the same! Nobody pays extra! Yet at its heart this is a wealth redistribution program. The Liberals even say it is. That means you need to take money from someone in order to have it available to give to someone else.

But all the Liberal drones seem to believe that the money is grown from magic beans. Nobody has to pay more, not even business.

All that extra money for the poor - it's magic money.

Edited October 11, 2008 by Argus

[independent]

Are you a psychic?

Macleans get mailed out before the posted date. Here is an earlier article online.

http://www.macleans.ca/canada/national/art...81001_3411_3411

[nothinarian]

Macleans get mailed out before the posted date. Here is an earlier article online.

http://www.macleans.ca/canada/national/art...81001_3411_3411

[nothinarian]

Macleans get mailed out before the posted date. Here is an earlier article online.

http://www.macleans.ca/canada/national/art...81001_3411_3411

No sh-sherlock

[Slim MacSquinty]

Here are a couple of interesting articles that take the carbon tax to task. I believe that the carbon tax is really a disguise for a income redistribution scheme, at any rate the Liberal record or actually following through with campaign promises is very poor so perhaps its not worth worrying about.

At any rate here they are:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/f...n-t-add-up.aspx

http://www.rabble.ca/news_full_story.shtml?x=66650

Furthermore in terms of Dion and clarity, his reference to his "plan" which as far as I can see has no details, he say he will have these meetings etc. he has made one good statement, although its of little importance to the economy on the whole that those having to convert their RRSP to RRIF's should get a grace perior, even this simple promise has a caveat wherein he says only if his meeting with smart people says its OK. Now there's a guy with a firm hand on the economic tiller eh.

I think perhaps he's just a straw man, sticking to script, prompted by his handlers because perhaps he's not smart enough to figure out this economy stuff.

[Slim MacSquinty]

Here's another one that may cause you to question his sincerity on the carbon tax, given that its from Sun media, I'm suprised they had any nice words for him (they do) which is certainly more than I can say for the Star and Harper.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Environment/20...992066-sun.html

[noahbody]

Macleans get mailed out before the posted date. Here is an earlier article online.

http://www.macleans.ca/canada/national/art...81001_3411_3411

Toward the end of last year, the Prime Minister embarked on his usual round of exclusive interviews. The news was not good. He told the Globe and Mail exclusively that Canadians should brace themselves for the impact of pending federal regulations on greenhouse gas emissions, warning that "mandatory reductions impose costs. Those costs are real in the short term. There is no way to avoid them. None." He told the Toronto Star exclusively that the implementation of the regulations in the new year would bring home "the reality that you cannot reduce greenhouse gas — you cannot mandate it — without there being some economic cost in the short term." Similarly bleak advisories were issued in exclusive interviews with the CBC ("very real costs"), and the Canwest News Service ("there is no way to do this without imposing costs on our economy in the short term").

So which candidate do you think is being upfront on costs and which one do you think is trying to mislead voters?

[tango]

The Greenshift is revenue neutral for the government, not for companies or individuals. You don't know what you're voting for.

A company's taxes stay the same, but are shifted from a tax on its profits to a tax on the energy it uses.

Same for a household, and either a household or a company can reduce their energy costs and benefit from the plan.

Your conclusion is the opposite of the statement, typically tory spinerama.

So ... what's Harper's plan again? He has no plan that he will tell the public in advance - he'll just spring it on us. We have no friggen idea what the man will do in office - knit sweaters?

I'm thinking we gave Harper a fair chance, and he's just becoming more secretive, less democratic, just like we feared. The man is an authoritarian very impatient with any semblance of democracy. And he cheats and lies about it.

I think it's time to give Dion a chance. He hasn't had time to get addicted to power like Harper is, so he may tell us the truth for a while.

Edited October 12, 2008 by tango

[noahbody]

QUOTE(independent @ Oct 11 2008, 09:44 AM)

The quotes below are from Maclean's oct 13 2008 Edition.

"Harper has a Green plan too, though he'd rather not talk about it right now by Andrew Coyne."

"not long ago,Stephen Harper was warning in interviews of the 'very real costs' pf a Conservative plan to cut emissions. No longer."

"well now it's october,in the middle of an election campaign,and Stephen Harper no longer wants to talk about the costs of his environmental plan. Indeed, he never even mentions his plan."

From the same article:

More significantly — and remarkably — no one has thought to ask the Prime Minister about the costs, and the risks, of his own plan.

So Andrew Coyne is making a big deal out of Harper not talking about costs and thinks it's remarkable that no one has asked him about it. If only Andrew Coyne knew a journalist.

"

In sum, the conservatives plan is just as costly as the Liberals', twice as complicated, and half as effective."

Don''t think Coyne is really the one to judge on costs or effectiveness. And did you edit that quote or was it the Maclean's editor? If you read the original on the link, he says "probably half as effective." As in he doesn't really have a clue.

[Moonbox]

A company's taxes stay the same, but are shifted from a tax on its profits to a tax on the energy it uses.

No this is a bald-faced lie. There is not an economist in Canada or the world who is supporting this. This is 100% total and complete bullshit.

The Green Shift IS going to tax companies' on carbon emissions. That's right. They WILL get tax reductions on profit. That's right as well.

The plan is revenue neutral in terms of money going to the GOVERNMENT. What the Liberals fail to tell you is that a VASTLY unfair amount of the tax dollars collected from carbon taxes will be going to the poor. Economists generally agree that business and anything but the very poorest households will only get 66% of every dollar extra they pay from the plan back in income tax cuts. The remaining 33% is income redistribution towards the poor.

So ... what's Harper's plan again? He has no plan that he will tell the public in advance - he'll just spring it on us. We have no friggen idea what the man will do in office - knit sweaters?

I think Harper has been pretty clear in that he's not making the environment a priority over the economy.

I think it's time to give Dion a chance. He hasn't had time to get addicted to power like Harper is, so he may tell us the truth for a while.

Dion can't even speak without a teleprompter in front of him. His economic 'plan' is that he will start the 30-50 plan. That's the plan that the Liberals have for the economy, that's for 30 days. The 30-50 plan is for the economy, because it's 30-50.....Wait can I start again?