John Diefenbaker

[Hcheh]

In your opinion, what do you think of John Diefenbaker? Performance wise, he might not have been the best prime minister.. but I respect him for the things he stood up for, his stance on multiculturalism and the passion he had. What is your opinion about him?

[Bryan]

One of the best ever.

[Hcheh]

One of the best ever.

Right on, the more I read about him, the more respect I have for him. I think the biggest factor that contributed to his unpopularity was his cancellation of the Avro Arrow.. However, to my understand, the economy was not very good at that time.. Could they really afford to keep up this costly weapon project?

Edited October 7, 2008 by Hcheh

[kengs333]

Right on, the more I read about him, the more respect I have for him. I think the biggest factor that contributed to his unpopularity was his cancellation of the Avro Arrow.. However, to my understand, the economy was not very good at that time.. Could they really afford to keep up this costly weapon project?

Do you actually know anything about his political career? His unpopularity stems from his attitude towards Kennedy and the American government in general, and an active campaign within his own cabinet to undermine his image and credibility. As much as I admire him for being a true patriotic Canadian, he was somewhat of an eccentric and wasn't exactly suited for being PM.

[Hcheh]

Do you actually know anything about his political career? His unpopularity stems from his attitude towards Kennedy and the American government in general, and an active campaign within his own cabinet to undermine his image and credibility. As much as I admire him for being a true patriotic Canadian, he was somewhat of an eccentric and wasn't exactly suited for being PM.

Yes as a matter of fact, I have read books about him.. By unpopularity, I meant by the average Canadians or the ones who sit around and post on forums. I have looked around that there has been some hate for him because of his Avro Arrow cancellation. I know that JFK and Diefenbaker weren't on the best terms. Concerning the whole anti American sentiment, I think it was Diefenbaker who said, " I am not anti-American, I am just pro-Canadian".

Edited October 7, 2008 by Hcheh

[Wild Bill]

Bad! Cancelling the Arrow was enough!

It was a bonehead, poorly thought out move that immediately wiped out a world class aerospace industry and gave virtually all our rocket scientists to the Americans, where they helped to put a man on the moon.

That was when we became a third class country, starting the slide to where we are a branch plant economy that is strongest in natural resources, competing with every other third world country with little or no advanced manufacturing.

Thanks to Dief, Canada lost much of its brains. We became a developmentally challenged nation that perpetually asks to be coddled. The Americans have to defend us and the Chinese own our economy.

Thanks for nothing, Dief! You may have had a big heart but we would be a far richer nation if you had of had a bit more intelligence and vision.

[Argus]

In your opinion, what do you think of John Diefenbaker? Performance wise, he might not have been the best prime minister.. but I respect him for the things he stood up for, his stance on multiculturalism and the passion he had. What is your opinion about him?

I used to watch Diefenbaker in the House while he was in opposition. He had class and dignity and a quick wit even at that age, and most everyone else looked ordinary compared to him.

[Argus]

Bad! Cancelling the Arrow was enough!

Given the economics of the time, given the cost of a fighter program and the lack need given the perception that missiles were basically about to wipe out the job it was designed for, I think the demise of the Arrow was inevitable. We buy fighters, or have over the last forty years, about once every uhm, thirty years or so. You can't keep an industry going on that. And you can't make sales internationally when your costs are so much higher than the other guy. The Americans can run off a couple of thousand F-18s for personal consumption. That makes the individual unit costs far lower than we could possibly match.

[Hcheh]

Bad! Cancelling the Arrow was enough!

It was a bonehead, poorly thought out move that immediately wiped out a world class aerospace industry and gave virtually all our rocket scientists to the Americans, where they helped to put a man on the moon.

That was when we became a third class country, starting the slide to where we are a branch plant economy that is strongest in natural resources, competing with every other third world country with little or no advanced manufacturing.

Thanks to Dief, Canada lost much of its brains. We became a developmentally challenged nation that perpetually asks to be coddled. The Americans have to defend us and the Chinese own our economy.

Thanks for nothing, Dief! You may have had a big heart but we would be a far richer nation if you had of had a bit more intelligence and vision.

You see what I mean? There are enough people out there who share your sentiment.. However, as I and Argus said, given the economic situation at the time, the collapse would have been inevitable.

[Hcheh]

http://www.ggower.com/dief/text/citizen4.shtml

http://www.ggower.com/dief/arrow.shtml

here's some interesting articles concerning the Avro Arrow cancellation.

[TCCK]

Best PM EVER! He did one thing wrong as mentioned above, caved to the Americans and cancelled the Avro-Arrow. That plane could have made Canada filthy rich for a few years especially coinsidering it was during the cold ar and the USA would stop at nothing to be more powerful than the USSR.

OH and wasn't this when the NDP as still called the CANADIAN COMMUNIST FEDERATION? Don't know the roots of the NDP, you should find out what BS they stand for and where they came from.

[M.Dancer]

I still maintain that cancelling the AVRO Arrow was the most prudent choice he could make. Otherwise we might still be paying for a platform that was obsolete by the time it came to the prototype phase. It could be argued that the avionics could have been repackaged into a warplane that had a different role than a bomber interceptor but I haven't heard anywhere that that was an option at the time or we had the budget to do so. Even today there are few nations that can develop on their own from scratch a modern warplane and had AVRO been able to get international partners then perhaps the Arrow could have become a long distance bomber but the one point remains, AVRO was a private company and their inability to either get refinancing, firm orders or to change the role as the timed changed is their burden, not the Governments.

[bush_cheney2004]

.....Even today there are few nations that can develop on their own from scratch a modern warplane and had AVRO been able to get international partners then perhaps the Arrow could have become a long distance bomber but the one point remains, AVRO was a private company and their inability to either get refinancing, firm orders or to change the role as the timed changed is their burden, not the Governments.

Correct.....AVRO was using an American engine at first (Iroquois engine wasn't ready yet) and other Yankee kit...hell...the US even loaned 'em a B-47 to use as a test platform. Poor Arrow..relegated to be only a "great Plane" on the Discovery Channel, and the poster child for Canada's lasting romance with what could have been.

[Wild Bill]

I still maintain that cancelling the AVRO Arrow was the most prudent choice he could make. Otherwise we might still be paying for a platform that was obsolete by the time it came to the prototype phase. It could be argued that the avionics could have been repackaged into a warplane that had a different role than a bomber interceptor but I haven't heard anywhere that that was an option at the time or we had the budget to do so. Even today there are few nations that can develop on their own from scratch a modern warplane and had AVRO been able to get international partners then perhaps the Arrow could have become a long distance bomber but the one point remains, AVRO was a private company and their inability to either get refinancing, firm orders or to change the role as the timed changed is their burden, not the Governments.

Our domestic costs were not higher at the time. It was the 1950's, remember? We didn't have Asian competition. Your argument fails to answer some of the questions. Who says we had to only build for domestic orders? Why couldn't we have sold to the US and the UK? Both countries expressed interest. Moreover, if we had to cancel the program why didn't we sell the research and prototypes to our allies under royalty, again both of whom had expressed interest?

No, Occam's Razor has a simpler explanation. Dief and his crew had no idea what they were killing! There is a famous quote from one of Dief's aides who had phoned A V Roe. He and the rest of the Tory cabinet were in horror of the huge layoff going on. They obviously had no idea that was a consequence of their cancelling the contract. The aide is purported to have asked "Couldn't you just retool and have them make tractors instead?"

At that point Dief and his boys took a closer look and realized that cancelling the Arrow could become politically embarrassing. That was when the decision was made to scrap and bury EVERYTHING! The last thing Dief wanted was for another country to buy the plane, finish the development and fly it for all the world to see how advanced it was for the times.

[guyser]

OH and wasn't this when the NDP as still called the CANADIAN COMMUNIST FEDERATION?

???

Don't know the roots of the NDP, you should find out what BS they stand for and where they came from.

Yes , you should

[Shakeyhands]

shouldn't 'dead" be an option for this poll?

[kengs333]

Yes as a matter of fact, I have read books about him.. By unpopularity, I meant by the average Canadians or the ones who sit around and post on forums. I have looked around that there has been some hate for him because of his Avro Arrow cancellation. I know that JFK and Diefenbaker weren't on the best terms. Concerning the whole anti American sentiment, I think it was Diefenbaker who said, " I am not anti-American, I am just pro-Canadian".

Bravo, you know one of his more famous quotes. So what if some people hated him because of the Arrow, he had to do it because he had to appease the Americans who he disdained.

[Hcheh]

Bravo, you know one of his more famous quotes. So what if some people hated him because of the Arrow, he had to do it because he had to appease the Americans who he disdained.

Gee, are you reading me wrong. I never said that I disliked him for canceling the Avro Arrow, I was the one who created this thread.. I simply said that there are many people who dislike him for canceling the Avro Arrow and THEREFORE (as stated in my earlier post), it damaged his popularity. The one who posted slander against Dief because of the Avro Arrow is an example.. I was expecting that from a Diefenbaker thread.

[Hcheh]

I still maintain that cancelling the AVRO Arrow was the most prudent choice he could make. Otherwise we might still be paying for a platform that was obsolete by the time it came to the prototype phase. It could be argued that the avionics could have been repackaged into a warplane that had a different role than a bomber interceptor but I haven't heard anywhere that that was an option at the time or we had the budget to do so. Even today there are few nations that can develop on their own from scratch a modern warplane and had AVRO been able to get international partners then perhaps the Arrow could have become a long distance bomber but the one point remains, AVRO was a private company and their inability to either get refinancing, firm orders or to change the role as the timed changed is their burden, not the Governments.

I agree. I don't necessarily think that the cancellation was such a bad choice. Dief took a lot of heat for something very over exaggerated..

[M.Dancer]

Our domestic costs were not higher at the time.

And this is apropos to...?

It was the 1950's, remember? We didn't have Asian competition.

And that is some how pertinent?

Your argument fails to answer some of the questions. Who says we had to only build for domestic orders? Why couldn't we have sold to the US and the UK? ter

Both countries expressed interest.

Expressing interest is what I do when the nice salesman shows me the big screen TV. Quite another thing to place an order. Now if they had firm orders .....but I think not..no one needed a bomber interceptor firing nuclear anti aircraft missiles.

Moreover, if we had to cancel the program why didn't we sell the research and prototypes to our allies under royalty, again both of whom had expressed interest?

o

Probably becuase since it was already obsolete, they had np need or interest

No, Occam's Razor has a simpler explanation.

Sim pler than killing it because it wasn't wanted? You are suggesting it was wanted and killed anyway. My Occam's razor is sharper.

Dief and his crew had no idea what they were killing! There is a famous quote from one of Dief's aides who had phoned A V Roe. He and the rest of the Tory cabinet were in horror of the huge layoff going on. They obviously had no idea that was a consequence of their cancelling the contract. The aide is purported to have asked "Couldn't you just retool and have them make tractors instead?"

At that point Dief and his boys took a closer look and realized that cancelling the Arrow could become politically embarrassing. That was when the decision was made to scrap and bury EVERYTHING! The last thing Dief wanted was for another country to buy the plane, finish the development and fly it for all the world to see how advanced it was for the times.

That is neither here nor there and borders on conspiracy theory...which essetially is where the myth lies. And the Occam razor to this is, If A.V Roe could have sold it, he would have.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

A few points to clear the air.

1) There never was a prototype the CF105 went from the drawing board to production. A Canadian first.

2) The Arrow was far ahead of its time in many areas, it was not obsolete. In fact the Bomarc Missile we bought from the Americans was.

3) The Arrow program cancellation was responsible for a very real brain drain. We lost 25,000 jobs overnight and billions in our economy.

4) The current position of the government of Canada is to out source defense department procurement to other nations and that costs the tax payer millions

In short, the chief ended our climb in technological terms. Aerospace efforts are at the leading edge of technological advancement.

I voted no.

[M.Dancer]

A few points to clear the air.

2) The Arrow was far ahead of its time in many areas, it was not obsolete. In fact the Bomarc Missile we bought from the Americans was.

You missunderstand. The plan may have been cutting edge at doing what itb was designed to do, which was fly very straight, very high and very fast, fire a nuclear armed missile at massed bomber formations.

Unfortunately for the designers and the Arrow, massed bomber formations were becoming a thing of the past..something to do with Sputnik I'm sure.

[TCCK]

???

Yes , you should

Sure shows ho much you know about the heritage of the NOW NDP.

[Wild Bill]

You missunderstand. The plan may have been cutting edge at doing what itb was designed to do, which was fly very straight, very high and very fast, fire a nuclear armed missile at massed bomber formations.

Unfortunately for the designers and the Arrow, massed bomber formations were becoming a thing of the past..something to do with Sputnik I'm sure.

You sound like someone who has never actually read any books about the Arrow. You're making your arguments from generalized assumptions about a situation from so long ago, based on your confidence or faith in Dief's government and not the actual deeds.

For the record, both the Americans and the British offered money, big money. Dief's gov't flatly refused to allow any sale of anything to do with the aircraft.

The Arrow's design was hardly as limited as you describe. You're dead wrong on that one. It would have made a magnificent fighter/interceptor which would have been useful well into the 70's and early 80's.

Of course, this being Canada we'd likely still be flying them today, like our Sea King helicopters.

It was an unusual situation with some very unusual actions taken. You might want to read a few books on the subject. There are a lot of them out there and I do think you'd find them interesting. Most definitely NOT tin foil hat conspiracy theories! Just the usual political burying of dumb moves.

[M.Dancer]

For the record, both the Americans and the British offered money, big money. Dief's gov't flatly refused to allow any sale of anything to do with the aircraft.

The Arrow's design was hardly as limited as you describe. You're dead wrong on that one. It would have made a magnificent fighter/interceptor which would have been useful well into the 70's and early 80's.

Not one hard order..not from the US who cancelled similar types of aircraft at the same period or retooled them for different missions or the British who considered it as a stop gap replacement.

No doubt with its high altitude speed it would have made a worthy interceptor but I don't believe it had the acrobatic ability or the range to be a fighter.

Edited October 8, 2008 by M.Dancer