American-style school shooting in Finland

[M.Dancer]

Hell, prewar Germany was incredibly violent. The cities were war zones as heavily armed militias fought each other. Iraonically it was Hitler who pledged tobring order......overlooking the fact that his armed gangs constituted half the problem.

[kengs333]

Hell, prewar Germany was incredibly violent. The cities were war zones as heavily armed militias fought each other. Iraonically it was Hitler who pledged tobring order......overlooking the fact that his armed gangs constituted half the problem.

Thanks for yet another uninsightful gibberish post.

[M.Dancer]

Thanks for yet another uninsightful gibberish post.

Isn't that how you describe all posts that debunk your nonsense?

Lets face it, the OP in this thread is half baked stupidity at best and in all the comments you have made in support of the half baked stupidity, you have been blown out of the water.

[kengs333]

Post war Germany was peaceful?

Yes.

What would you call the Stasi

The East German secret police. But we're talking about post-war Germany, not a Soviet satelite state.

or the Berlin Wall itself?

A wall is violent?!?!?

What Baader-Meinhof?

LOL. Are you serious? One small terrorist group is proof that German society was violent? The fact that it is the only such group that you know of suggests just how abnormal they were, and basically substantiates my assertion.

It seems to me that you have decided only to examine a certain form of violence and ignore any other. On those terms, maybe we should look precisely at the failure of urban cventres because that's where most violent crime (in your terms anyway occurs).

No, I'm basing my opinions on the truth.

You appear to engage in grotesque generalities without even being aware that you are doing so.

Grotesque generalities? Hardly.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Lets face it, the OP in this thread is half baked stupidity at best and in all the comments you have made in support of the half baked stupidity, you have been blown out of the water.

True, but it is so absurd it has real entertainment value. Peaceful post-war Germany imported Skinheads with swastikas from Canada, no doubt.

[kengs333]

Isn't that how you describe all posts that debunk your nonsense?

No. That's the first time ever that I've used the phrase "uninsightful gibberish".

Lets face it, the OP in this thread is half baked stupidity at best and in all the comments you have made in support of the half baked stupidity, you have been blown out of the water.

I'm not sure how it is "half baked stupidity" when it has been clearly determined that the shooter was fascinated by Columbine. That is a direct link between American gun culture and what he did. I'm not sure why you're so desperate to defend American culture, but whatever the case you're typical posting behaviour clearly shows its influence.

[kengs333]

True, but it is so absurd it has real entertainment value. Peaceful post-war Germany imported Skinheads with swastikas from Canada, no doubt.

Actually skinhead culture is derived from Britain and the United States. Neo-Nazis more closely resemble southern white supremacists, KKK types than they do Nationalist Socialists of the 1920s and 30s.

[M.Dancer]

LOL. Are you serious? One small terrorist group is proof that German society was violent? The fact that it is the only such group that you know of suggests just how abnormal they were, and basically substantiates my assertion.

No, I'm basing my opinions on the truth.

Grotesque generalities? Hardly.

One small terrorist group funded by Stasi that was responsible for numerous murders and terrorist attacks....

[M.Dancer]

Actually skinhead culture is derived from Britain and the United States. Neo-Nazis more closely resemble southern white supremacists, KKK types than they do Nationalist Socialists of the 1920s and 30s.

You mean the groups known for rioting and pitched battles in the streets? Peaceful pre war germany?

[JB Globe]

Yeah, but the notions for this kind of gun violence comes from Hollywood movies and American school-shooting like Columbine.

You're going to have to show me why the two are connected - otherwise this is about as credible as when people said it was Marylin Manson that made those kids shoot up Columbine.

It's not much different than Muslims using suicide bombings as their choice of tactic: it becomes culturally ingrained.

I was unaware that Muslims, in general, use suicide attacks. I was under the impression that it was a tactic used by groups like Al Qaeda, The Tamil Tigers, and the Japanese airforce in WWII. Maybe I just missed all those suicide attacks carried out by the Turkish military.

[bush_cheney2004]

Hey, I guess it's worth a try...revisionist thinking to rehabilitate not only a violent Germany but the rest of the world by blaming American culture in general and Hollywood in particular. This leads us to the following absurd correlations:

1) Neo Nazi skinheads born of CanAm experiences with the Klan and "Birth of a Nation"

2) South African "necklacing" stemming from American lynchings of "Negroes".

3) The burning of cars in France copied from 60's riots in the USA.

4) Stabbings in Canada directly related to Hitchcock's "Psycho".

5) Aircraft hijackings inspired by D.B. Cooper.

6) Beheadings of infidels traced directly to "Conan The Barbarian".

7) Train bombings as Gomez Addams copycat crimes of the rail.

8) Public hangings by the Taliban paying homage to Clint Eastwood and spaghetti westerns (made in Spain)

9) Bank robberies related to the James Gang and numerous films depicting same.

10) Honor killings derived from slasher films and "Carrie".

C'mon...we can have fun with this! On the bright side, at least he hasn't gone after the Hollywood "Jews" (yet).

[kengs333]

You mean the groups known for rioting and pitched battles in the streets? Peaceful pre war germany?

To the best of my recollection the KKK wasn't a pre-war street gang. I know you're just trying to be a smart ass, but for the sake of anyone else who happens upon this who actually has the ability to comprehend logical arguments, the post-WWI street fighting in isolated parts of Germany hardly equates to the continual gang warfare that is occurring in every major American city, and has been for decades now.

I still don't understand why you are so desperate to defend American culture, why you can't admit that it is a negative and corrupting influence throughout the world.

[bush_cheney2004]

...I still don't understand why you are so desperate to defend American culture, why you can't admit that it is a negative and corrupting influence throughout the world.

Nobody is defending American culture, but they are attacking your absurd notion that it is the (original) root of all evil and social pathology. Do you think Superman can really fly?

[M.Dancer]

To the best of my recollection the KKK wasn't a pre-war street gang. I know you're just trying to be a smart ass, but for the sake of anyone else who happens upon this who actually has the ability to comprehend logical arguments, the post-WWI street fighting in isolated parts of Germany .....

Wasn't isolated. It was rampant,,,,and the KKK was a post-bellum street gang

[PoliticalCitizen]

Nobody is defending American culture, but they are attacking your absurd notion that it is the (original) root of all evil and social pathology. Do you think Superman can really fly?

American culture needs no defence, as a matter of fact it was in offence for at least 50 years and has won over people from all over the globe (even Iran).

As to the shootings - I believe the root cause is the lack of spiritual development in Western (including Eastern-European) education system.

[Guest American Woman]

I still don't understand why you are so desperate to defend American culture, why you can't admit that it is a negative and corrupting influence throughout the world.

Seems to me you're pretty desperate to defend every other nation on the planet-- putting the blame for every other nation's problems on the U.S. Don't they have a mind of their own? Are they all lemmings? Have we not taken on the problems of other nations in the U.S. ourselves? Have you not had that happen in Canada? What was to blame for the school shootings before Columbine? And what do we blame Columbine on? Finland is in the top five nations of gun ownership per capita. Doesn't that tell you that Finland could have as much a 'gun culture' as the U.S. does?

Guess the U.S. is responsible for all that happens in the world -- the good, the bad, and the ugly. Is that it? Is that what you truly believe?

You might want to travel outside your little world one of these days and see what Americans have done in the world. Talk to a few people in the third world and ask them what they think of the U.S. and Americans. Ask them how "negative" they think Americans and their actions are. You just might learn something.

[kengs333]

Nobody is defending American culture, but they are attacking your absurd notion that it is the (original) root of all evil and social pathology. Do you think Superman can really fly?

I never claimed that it is the "root of all evil..." rather that it is the dominant "culture" in the west and that in terms of school shooting, shooters seem to be taking their cue from American gun culture and school shootings that have happened in the USA.

[kengs333]

What was to blame for the school shootings before Columbine?

Those would have been isolated instances. The concept of taking a gun into a school and shooting people is something that individually deranged people are going to hit upon. But Columbine was somehow different in the manner in which the media and American society in general reacted to it. And subsequently, it was seen as model by which later school shootings occurred. Both the shooting in Finland had gunmen that were fascinated by Columbine and not previous school shootings.

And what do we blame Columbine on?

American culture.

Finland is in the top five nations of gun ownership per capita. Doesn't that tell you that Finland could have as much a 'gun culture' as the U.S. does?

No, because of the way that they view their guns. Gun culture means more than simple ownership. Look at how the NRA operates, all the movies with gun violence, the absurd devotion to firearms that many Americans have, the rampant gang violence, etc. These all originate in the USA.

[bush_cheney2004]

Those would have been isolated instances. The concept of taking a gun into a school and shooting people is something that individually deranged people are going to hit upon. But Columbine was somehow different in the manner in which the media and American society in general reacted to it. And subsequently, it was seen as model by which later school shootings occurred. Both the shooting in Finland had gunmen that were fascinated by Columbine and not previous school shootings.

How convenient...and necessary to explain away the École Polytechnique Massacre in 1989.

No, because of the way that they view their guns. Gun culture means more than simple ownership. Look at how the NRA operates, all the movies with gun violence, the absurd devotion to firearms that many Americans have, the rampant gang violence, etc. These all originate in the USA.

Actually, none of these "originate" in the USA....not even the firearms themselves

[kengs333]

Actually, none of these "originate" in the USA....not even the firearms themselves

Movies produced by Hollywood and gang violence in American cities don't originate in the USA?!?!?

[moderateamericain]

Movies produced by Hollywood and gang violence in American cities don't originate in the USA?!?!?

Troll, Let me enlighten you. Violence is not something new to this world. We have been offing each other in large number through out human history. The US has not been here for even 300 years yet. Were signficantly younger than some countries. Like China and Russia and most of Europe. If you really want to get nitty gritty. Western Influence only really started kicking in the last 400 years. And guess where it started? Europe slick. Most of Africa's problems can be placed squarely on the shoulders of England, Germany, Belgium, and France. The Palestine issue was brought on by the annexation of the providence BY ENGLAND. SO please spare me the America is to blame crap. The older world has cause more havoc in the past 300 years then the US has since it became a country.

Furthermore. All these countries have a choice, nobody puts a gun to there head and says BE WESTERN! You have to ask yourself what is so appealing about western society that its own citizens CHOOSE to adapt it. Nobody is going around putting a glock to a african's head and saying "LISTEN TO TUPAC OR YOUR DEAD!" Stop looking for scape goats and stop making generalizations. Go learn something before you post some crap like "ghettos are warzones" Especially since you admitted to never having been to one.

Edited September 25, 2008 by moderateamericain

[bush_cheney2004]

Movies produced by Hollywood and gang violence in American cities don't originate in the USA?!?!?

None of your gross generalizations "originate" solely from the USA:

Not motion pictures;

Not firearms;

Not political action groups;

Not gangs;

and certainly Not violence.

Hell...John Garand was a Canadian!

[guyser]

Troll, Let me enlighten you. Violence is not something new to this world. We have been offing each other in large number through out human history. The US has not been here for even 300 years yet. Were signficantly younger than some countries. Like China and Russia and most of Europe. If you really want to get nitty gritty. Western Influence only really started kicking in the last 400 years. And guess where it started? Europe slick. Most of Africa's problems can be placed squarely on the shoulders of England, Germany, Belgium, and France. The Palestine issue was brought on by the annexation of the providence BY ENGLAND. SO please spare me the America is to blame crap. The older world has cause more havoc in the past 300 years then the US has since it became a country.

Furthermore. All these countries have a choice, nobody puts a gun to there head and says BE WESTERN! You have to ask yourself what is so appealing about western society that its own citizens CHOOSE to adapt it. Nobody is going around putting a glock to a african's head and saying "LISTEN TO TUPAC OR YOUR DEAD!" Stop looking for scape goats and stop making generalizations. Go learn something before you post some crap like "ghettos are warzones" Especially since you admitted to never having been to one.

+1

[PoliticalCitizen]

Movies produced by Hollywood and gang violence in American cities don't originate in the USA?!?!?

Speaking of violent movies: Have you seen French movie "Irreversible"? I can't recommend it to anyone as it has scarred my soul irreversibly...

Besides, it is better to appease the Neanderthal in you via violent movies and music then beat the living shit out of someone... which is a common thing in many countries...

[kengs333]

Troll, Let me enlighten you. Violence is not something new to this world. We have been offing each other in large number through out human history. The US has not been here for even 300 years yet. Were signficantly younger than some countries. Like China and Russia and most of Europe. If you really want to get nitty gritty. Western Influence only really started kicking in the last 400 years. And guess where it started? Europe slick. Most of Africa's problems can be placed squarely on the shoulders of England, Germany, Belgium, and France. The Palestine issue was brought on by the annexation of the providence BY ENGLAND. SO please spare me the America is to blame crap. The older world has cause more havoc in the past 300 years then the US has since it became a country.

I disagree. I think that the problem stems from a decline in European influence in this region allowing for nationalist, ethnic, and Communist influences to take over.