World Might Blow Up or Something Today

[blueblood]

If the Amish are producing similar or higher yields than conventional farming, and conventional farming is not feeding the world, then you tell me. But whatever the case, the agricultural practices that the Amish use can be employed in parts of the world where your kind of farming cannot, which means that locals can produce more of their own food.

No, I'm quite certain that they have similar or higher yields, depending on what region they are farming in. Lancaster Co., Pa. has the most productive farmland in the US, I believe.

The thing is, while Amish farms tend to be small, due to their farming practices Amish farmers run profitable operations and usually are sitting on a far chunk of money because they know how to save and they haven't been trapped into modern farming practices that see farmers heavily in debt. So while you're sitting there worrying about being in "financial kaka," they're humbly going on with their lives knowing that they'll always be farming. So if I were you, I wouldn't be laughing...

Oh my God a Toronto socialist is teaching me about agriculture. I am definetely buying shares in the quebec aluminum company now, maybe even T-Fal toasters for that post.

Conventional farming is not feeding the world because there are 6 billion people and more than half can barely afford what I produce and are too lazy to make their own.

By the way northwest manitoba has some of the best productive farmland in the world.

How in the name of all that is holy can an ox and plow produce more than me when I use GM crops, herbicide, fungicide, and fertilizer. There's a reason why Canadian farmers buy into science, it's to produce more and make more money. To suggest an Amish person gets 80 bu/acre for CWRS #1 wheat is laughable. It is impossible to get that high of a yield by just watching it grow like the Amish do.

The lazy farmers are in debt. When my operation grosses less than 1 mil, I consider myself in financial kaka. An amish farm will never ever ever gross 1 mil, hell the hutterites are ultra religious and even they're smart enough to buy into modern farming practices.

The Luddite view of agriculture you have is hilarious.

[blueblood]

It seems the Amish are doing fine for themselves. The Amish don't seem to want to make big money from their crops. When the money runs out, chances are the Amish now have a huge technological advantage over your gas powered tractors you can no longer afford fuel for. Whatever they grow, feeds the livestock and the horses needed to plow fields. They are quite self sustaining.

There's 6 billion people in the world and a fuel hungry energy sector, that money won't be running out.

Wrong, we can grow fuel for our diesel powered tractors now. Those tractors take a lot of canola to feed them.

Nope technological advantage is still mine. Hahahahahahahaha

With the Amish not wanting to make big money for their crops, it means there are some people going without food overseas.

Are Ontario people that clueless when it comes to agriculture???

[kengs333]

Oh my God a Toronto socialist is teaching me about agriculture. I am definetely buying shares in the quebec aluminum company now, maybe even T-Fal toasters for that post.

I'm not a socialist.

Conventional farming is not feeding the world because there are 6 billion people and more than half can barely afford what I produce and are too lazy to make their own.

Most people living in apartments in Singapore can't farm for themselves, so how exactly is it that this makes them lazy. I'd like to see you farm on a 43rd story balcony.

By the way northwest manitoba has some of the best productive farmland in the world.

That's neat. Probably why a bunch of Amish moved out there and were welcomed with open arms by the locals. They know that these people can farm properly. Large agribusinesses ruin communities.

How in the name of all that is holy can an ox and plow produce more than me when I use GM crops, herbicide, fungicide, and fertilizer. There's a reason why Canadian farmers buy into science, it's to produce more and make more money. To suggest an Amish person gets 80 bu/acre for CWRS #1 wheat is laughable. It is impossible to get that high of a yield by just watching it grow like the Amish do.

Well, now that you've finished harvesting, why don't you invest some of your hard-earned money and buy a few books on Amish farming practices and figure it out for yourself.

When you make more money that goes to what? Paying off massive operating costs? Amish farmers have much lower operating costs and despite their smaller farms are able to maintain large families and still save more than enough to ensure that they will be able to farm through bad times. You probably exist on a year to year basis.

The lazy farmers are in debt. When my operation grosses less than 1 mil, I consider myself in financial kaka. An amish farm will never ever ever gross 1 mil, hell the hutterites are ultra religious and even they're smart enough to buy into modern farming practices.

The Hutterites come from a different religious tradition, so it's not really a matter of being "smart"--they simply have a different outlook on life. The Amish outlook on life and the reasoning behind their non-use of certain techologies is actually rather complex, and varies from group to group. My guess is that any attempt to clarify this, though, would be next to useless.

The Luddite view of agriculture you have is hilarious.

Yawn, whatever. Enjoy your next trip to the bank.

[kengs333]

With the Amish not wanting to make big money for their crops, it means there are some people going without food overseas.

Well, if the Amish are getting similar yields then what you claim doesn't make sense. Not wanting to make big money means that the intentionally keep their farms small and not take on the burden of high operating costs in order to maintain a viable lifestyle. Again, if you look at Lancaster County, it is one of the most productive agricultural regions in the USA and this is accoplished through thousands of small, efficient, and more environmentally sustainable farms rather than a few hundred agribusinesses.

Are Ontario people that clueless when it comes to agriculture???

It is rather frightening when some city-dwelling Ontarian knows more about sustainable agricultural practices than someone who purports to farm for a living.

[blueblood]

I'm not a socialist.

Most people living in apartments in Singapore can't farm for themselves, so how exactly is it that this makes them lazy. I'd like to see you farm on a 43rd story balcony.

That's neat. Probably why a bunch of Amish moved out there and were welcomed with open arms by the locals. They know that these people can farm properly. Large agribusinesses ruin communities.

Well, now that you've finished harvesting, why don't you invest some of your hard-earned money and buy a few books on Amish farming practices and figure it out for yourself.

When you make more money that goes to what? Paying off massive operating costs? Amish farmers have much lower operating costs and despite their smaller farms are able to maintain large families and still save more than enough to ensure that they will be able to farm through bad times. You probably exist on a year to year basis.

The Hutterites come from a different religious tradition, so it's not really a matter of being "smart"--they simply have a different outlook on life. The Amish outlook on life and the reasoning behind their non-use of certain techologies is actually rather complex, and varies from group to group. My guess is that any attempt to clarify this, though, would be next to useless.

Yawn, whatever. Enjoy your next trip to the bank.

And that's where I come in, I feed those people from Singapore even though they can go to the rice patty or catch fish. There are other people in Singapore that can participate in agriculture and feed the people in apartments, wonder why they don't?

I am from Northwest Manitoba and there are zero Amish people here, there is Mennonites, hutterites, european immigrants, and "regular" canadians though. Too bad Amish people can't farm as proper as I can. Yes Viterra and Monsanto sponsoring high school students for university and donating to community events is sure destroying communities. Why am I going to waste my time learning with Amish farming practices when mine are better?

Of course Amish have much lower operating costs, a two hundred year old plow has more than paid for itself, not to mention no electricity and no groceries. My operating costs are large and my income is larger and I get to enjoy technology on top of it, what a marvel idea!

I enjoy every trip to the bank, my loans officer loves me and my timely payments and I love my large bank account!!

Well, if the Amish are getting similar yields then what you claim doesn't make sense. Not wanting to make big money means that the intentionally keep their farms small and not take on the burden of high operating costs in order to maintain a viable lifestyle. Again, if you look at Lancaster County, it is one of the most productive agricultural regions in the USA and this is accoplished through thousands of small, efficient, and more environmentally sustainable farms rather than a few hundred agribusinesses.

The thing is the Amish are not getting similar yields to me, that is impossible. My farm is small, its only 2000 acres, and its run more efficiently than an Amish one, so I am no agribusiness. If the Amish are getting similar yields to me, than why am I wasting 300 000 dollars on crop inputs and why did I spend 200 000 on machinery??? If I can get 80 bu/acre for wheat with an ox and plow, I'm going to latin america on a hiring spree then.

It is rather frightening when some city-dwelling Ontarian knows more about sustainable agricultural practices than someone who purports to farm for a living.

Does your toaster tell you about luddite farming practices?

The only way your going to get out of that hole your digging is to dig straight down to China.

[kengs333]

Like I said, it would be next to useless trying to explain anything to you. I guess the good thing is that you're way out in rural Manitoba, and there's no chance of having to come across your uncouth kind in these parts. Even farmers in Ontario are usually not so crude and narrow-minded in their outlook. Whatever the case, if you want to farm the way you are, by all means. Society functions in such a way that certain people with certain personality types devote themselves to certain menial occupations, so the rest of society is free to pursue bigger and better things. So from the bottom of my heart, many many thanks for not having a broader outlook on life so that you and not I will waste away my life on some bleak prairie landscape far from civilization. I am going to call it a night and curl up in bed in my comfortable middle class home and a peaceful middle class suburb and do some reading from a book you could never comprehend. Oh, and maybe I'll make myself a little sandwich, too. Who knows, maybe that will be possible because of you too...

[White Doors]

Like I said, it would be next to useless trying to explain anything to you. I guess the good thing is that you're way out in rural Manitoba, and there's no chance of having to come across your uncouth kind in these parts. Even farmers in Ontario are usually not so crude and narrow-minded in their outlook. Whatever the case, if you want to farm the way you are, by all means. Society functions in such a way that certain people with certain personality types devote themselves to certain menial occupations, so the rest of society is free to pursue bigger and better things. So from the bottom of my heart, many many thanks for not having a broader outlook on life so that you and not I will waste away my life on some bleak prairie landscape far from civilization. I am going to call it a night and curl up in bed in my comfortable middle class home and a peaceful middle class suburb and do some reading from a book you could never comprehend. Oh, and maybe I'll make myself a little sandwich, too. Who knows, maybe that will be possible because of you too...

??

Ontario farmers use an Ox and plow?

That's the only thing I could gleam from your post (between the insults)

[blueblood]

??

Ontario farmers use an Ox and plow?

That's the only thing I could gleam from your post (between the insults)

Score 1 for team cowboy. yee haw!!!

[kengs333]

??

Ontario farmers use an Ox and plow?

That's the only thing I could gleam from your post (between the insults)

Don't waste your time taking the LSAT or any other test that require you to reason logically.

[White Doors]

Don't waste your time taking the LSAT or any other test that require you to reason logically.

Ok, thanks pardner!

yee haw!

[Radsickle]

There's 6 billion people in the world and a fuel hungry energy sector, that money won't be running out.

Are Ontario people that clueless when it comes to agriculture???

Are you signed into a contract with a pharmaceutical / petrochemical company for your annual seed, fertilizer and other chemicals? Are you allowed to farm without them?

[blueblood]

Are you signed into a contract with a pharmaceutical / petrochemical company for your annual seed, fertilizer and other chemicals? Are you allowed to farm without them?

Every year I hold my nose and sign the plant breeders act agreement for canola, that's it. All the other stuff is fair game. I'm allowed to farm without spray and fertilizer, but I'd be stupid in doing so.

[Radsickle]

Every year I hold my nose and sign the plant breeders act agreement for canola, that's it. All the other stuff is fair game. I'm allowed to farm without spray and fertilizer, but I'd be stupid in doing so.

Can't use your own seeds only for Canola? Do you have to use their sprays and stuff for the canola crop?

[blueblood]

Can't use your own seeds only for Canola? Do you have to use their sprays and stuff for the canola crop?

Nope can use whatever spray I want and other stuff I want.

[Radsickle]

Well, good luck to you. But I'd imagine alot of money leaves your farm for one or another petrochemical product. Yet, if you're growing your own fuel, it sounds half-way to sustainable. How many acres per year do you need for your biodiesel?

The Amish and Mennonites do have it made though, dude.... totally sustainable.

Cuba's got it right too.

And Organic produce is worth at least twice as much as a pharma-farm's produce in more enlightened parts of my province... The con$umer demand and preference is for organic and local and there's not enough people doing that anymore. Most farmers around here have been sold into the RoundUp-Ready seed/fertilizer/herbicide regimes; locked into contracts as representatives of one or another company, the landscape and perfect-looking fields being sold as the result of another great chemical invention. You probably think those are the smart farmers, eh? Are you sure Ontario doesn't know how to farm?

Almost every large field in South-Western Ontario has some sort of Company logo roadside to the crop. Do you have to allow the advertising on your property for the canola?

Edited October 1, 2008 by Radsickle

[kengs333]

Well, good luck to you. But I'd imagine alot of money leaves your farm for one or another petrochemical product. Yet, if you're growing your own fuel, it sounds half-way to sustainable. How many acres per year do you need for your biodiesel?

What difference does it make if he's sustainable in that respect. He's introducing a host of chemicles into the environment that has a negative impact on insect and animal life, and basically ruins the soil that he farms turning it into nothing more than a growing medium rather than a living, healthy entity. He has to use chemicles to maintain fertility, otherwise the soil becomes nothing and incapable of sustaining much plant life.

[blueblood]

Well, good luck to you. But I'd imagine alot of money leaves your farm for one or another petrochemical product. Yet, if you're growing your own fuel, it sounds half-way to sustainable. How many acres per year do you need for your biodiesel?

The Amish and Mennonites do have it made though, dude.... totally sustainable.

Cuba's got it right too.

And Organic produce is worth at least twice as much as a pharma-farm's produce in more enlightened parts of my province... The con$umer demand and preference is for organic and local and there's not enough people doing that anymore. Most farmers around here have been sold into the RoundUp-Ready seed/fertilizer/herbicide regimes; locked into contracts as representatives of one or another company, the landscape and perfect-looking fields being sold as the result of another great chemical invention. You probably think those are the smart farmers, eh? Are you sure Ontario doesn't know how to farm?

Almost every large field in South-Western Ontario has some sort of Company logo roadside to the crop. Do you have to allow the advertising on your property for the canola?

There are other farmers that grow their own biodiesel, I haven't gotten on that just yet. It would be a small percentage of my farm operation actually. Maybe 100 acres tops.

Mennonites are as high tech as I am.

Cuba's a joke, communist countries are pathetic when it comes to agriculture. They cannot compete and the USSR is proof.

Organic might be worth twice as much, it has to be or it won't be grown. Your land gets infested with weeds, and you need to downsize the operation to properly farm it. Organic does not yield as much, it is impossible because the weeds compete with crops for nutrients in the soil.

There is the nexera contract and the contracts to supply ethanol plants, but they only force you to produce so much for so much a price. Roundup ready, the only thing you sign away for is technology use and that you sell all of your seeds. You can spray whatever you want on it. You gotta spend money to make money. I didn't say ontario doesn't know how to farm, I said judging from some ontario posters, it would appear a lot of ontarians are clueless about agriculture.

You don't have to allow advertising, but you'd be stupid not to because the company pays you to pop up a sign.

[kengs333]

Cuba's a joke, communist countries are pathetic when it comes to agriculture. They cannot compete and the USSR is proof.

Actually, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Cuba switched over from conventional agriculture to sustainable organic farming and is now able to feed itself.

http://globalpublicmedia.com/articles/657

Since going from petrochemical intensive agricultural production to organic farming and gardening, Cuba now uses 21 times less pesticide than before the Special Period. They have accomplished this with their large-scale production of bio-pesticides and bio-fertilizers, exporting some of it to other Latin American countries.

...

"The Cuban agricultural, conventional, 'Green Revolution' system never was able to feed the people," Sanchez said. "It had high yields, but was oriented to plantation agriculture. We exported citrus, tobacco, sugar cane and we imported the basic things. So the system, even in the good times, never fulfilled people's basic needs."

Yee Haw!!! score 1 for Urban Ontarian

Edited October 1, 2008 by kengs333

[blueblood]

Actually, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Cuba switched over from conventional agriculture to sustainable organic farming and is now able to feed itself.

http://globalpublicmedia.com/articles/657

Yee Haw!!! score 1 for Urban Ontarian

What are you talking about, they're into bio farming and they're barely feeding themselves, thanks for giving undeniable proof that they are a joke. They don't have an ag industry, they don't even export. They're still not as productive as I am.

Trying to say a country is succeeding when people are fleeing in rubber dinghys to Florida is an even bigger joke.

Pesticides and fertilizer for everyone!!!

[kengs333]

What are you talking about, they're into bio farming and they're barely feeding themselves, thanks for giving undeniable proof that they are a joke. They don't have an ag industry, they don't even export. They're still not as productive as I am.

Actually, it would appear that they are feeding themselves now that they don't have to produce grains for export to the SU. This is the best that I can find at short notice, but it clearly shows agricultural exports of significant dollar value in some respects, and increasing.

http://indexmundi.com/trade/exports/?country=cu

In general, Cuba's exports are increasing.

Trying to say a country is succeeding when people are fleeing in rubber dinghys to Florida is an even bigger joke.

Why would they be doing that? The standard of living in the country has more to do with the way that the US deals with the country than the government. I'm no fan of Communism or Socialism, but you have to give them credit for being able to succeed despite the problems they face. They also have an unemployment rate of a mere 1.8%.

Yee Haw!!! score another one for kengs333....

[blueblood]

Actually, it would appear that they are feeding themselves now that they don't have to produce grains for export to the SU. This is the best that I can find at short notice, but it clearly shows agricultural exports of significant dollar value in some respects, and increasing.

http://indexmundi.com/trade/exports/?country=cu

In general, Cuba's exports are increasing.

Why would they be doing that? The standard of living in the country has more to do with the way that the US deals with the country than the government. I'm no fan of Communism or Socialism, but you have to give them credit for being able to succeed despite the problems they face. They also have an unemployment rate of a mere 1.8%.

Yee Haw!!! score another one for kengs333....

Those numbers are laughable, Ireland which is a country of similar size has an exact opposite ideology and is taking them to school. Cripes, it is on par with Jamaica.

It's a pretty pathetic country if they have an unemployment rate of 1.8% and country's with higher unemployment rates are destroying them. Show me that Cubans can generate more income per acre for the same crops than Canadians, not going to happen.

[GostHacked]

There's 6 billion people in the world and a fuel hungry energy sector, that money won't be running out.

Wrong, we can grow fuel for our diesel powered tractors now. Those tractors take a lot of canola to feed them.

So feed your tractor instead of people. Every crop you switch to make fuel from, takes away from the overall land available for food growth.

Nope technological advantage is still mine. Hahahahahahahaha

With the Amish not wanting to make big money for their crops, it means there are some people going without food overseas.

Well, I don't think the Amish have a gobal distrobution and supply chain. I think they grow it for themselves. Well, the Amish do keep to themselves and basicly shun the rest of the world. So chances of them doing big business with the rest of the world is a non starter.

Are Ontario people that clueless when it comes to agriculture???

There is plenty of food going around this planet. It is not a food problem, but at distrobution problem. I help run an entire warehouse of groceries. No shortage here at all it seems. Look at our grocey stores, plenty of food there as well. How much food gets thrown out on a daily basis because it goes bad. On the warehouse level it is insane.

So again, no food shortage, it is all in how it is distrobuted.

[kengs333]

Those numbers are laughable, Ireland which is a country of similar size has an exact opposite ideology and is taking them to school. Cripes, it is on par with Jamaica.

It's a pretty pathetic country if they have an unemployment rate of 1.8% and country's with higher unemployment rates are destroying them. Show me that Cubans can generate more income per acre for the same crops than Canadians, not going to happen.

Okay, we'll see how Ireland does this year with most of its crops rotting in the fields... and the unemployment rate increasing... and people making a run on the banks... and all that. Cuba may not play the economy game the way you've been brainwashed to believe that it has to be played, but one thing is for sure: 100% self-sufficiency means that they can weather tough economic times better.

[blueblood]

So feed your tractor instead of people. Every crop you switch to make fuel from, takes away from the overall land available for food growth.

So??? It's whoever pays the best gets the grain.

[blueblood]

Okay, we'll see how Ireland does this year with most of its crops rotting in the fields... and the unemployment rate increasing... and people making a run on the banks... and all that. Cuba may not play the economy game the way you've been brainwashed to believe that it has to be played, but one thing is for sure: 100% self-sufficiency means that they can weather tough economic times better.

The Irish Banks are all well insured, I don't think we'll be seeing any bank runs over there. They're still better off than Cuba, you won't see any Irishmen on dinghys going to the UK.

Cuba plays the garbage economy game, my standard of living is way better than theirs. By that logic, I'm not only self sufficient, I am bankrolling a lot of people, so I should be weathering tough economic times even better!!!

Cuba's economy game sucks, that's why their farmers live in little shanty's and use mules while I live in a big house and use machinery. It's also why they flee the country in rubber dinghy's and some members of their baseball team defected in the most right wing part of Canada.

Edited October 1, 2008 by blueblood