U.S. border agents given power to seize travellers' laptops, cellp

[GostHacked]

There's one group that goes back and forth across the border everyday and I'm sure they have cellphones and maybe laptop and that is the truckers. I wonder if they are taking theirs??

Actually that is an interesting bit. I have several friends who drive transport. I am gonna inquire if they have had issues like that.

[White Doors]

Just because it hasn't happened to him doesn't mean it isn't wrong.

If you don't like the law, don't put yourself in a position to be subject to it. ie: Don't go to the US.

pretty simple.

[guyser]

If you don't like the law, don't put yourself in a position to be subject to it. ie: Don't go to the US.

pretty simple.

Or, buy two laptops and encrypt the hell out of everything. Its the govt for god sakes, they wont crack it for decades. There is nothing to compel you to reveal the contents or provide passwords.Of course they may deny you , but that has to be better than losing the laptop.

For the record, I dont like this law, but the border is a whole different ballgame when it comes to rights and laws.

[Smallc]

If you don't like the law, don't put yourself in a position to be subject to it. ie: Don't go to the US.

pretty simple.

I'm not planning to return to the US.

[White Doors]

I'm not planning to return to the US.

Well there ya go

what are you complaining about?

I will be down in Clearwater this February and can't wait!

[Smallc]

Well there ya go

what are you complaining about?

I will be down in Clearwater this February and can't wait!

I was planning on returning, but after the trouble I had at the border last time (if they had been able to take my documents and electronics, they probably would have) and now this new rule, I have canceled my plans. It is a stupid law which basically says that you are guilty until proven innocent when you have done nothing wrong.

[White Doors]

I was planning on returning, but after the trouble I had at the border last time (if they had been able to take my documents and electronics, they probably would have) and now this new rule, I have canceled my plans. It is a stupid law which basically says that you are guilty until proven innocent when you have done nothing wrong.

Obviously the Americans have more concerns about their security than wether you come back for another visit. When you go to another country you are subject to their rules. Seems rather silly to complain about them, especially in the context as guilty until proven innocent which applies to people IN the USA or Canada for that matter, not the one's who are stopped at the border before they get there.

As a Canadian when you drive over and then come back, CANADIAN border agents are allowed to take your car apart piece by piece and have no duty to put it back together.

Your energy would best be focused there.

[Smallc]

Obviously the Americans have more concerns about their security than wether you come back for another visit. When you go to another country you are subject to their rules. Seems rather silly to complain about them, especially in the context as guilty until proven innocent which applies to people IN the USA or Canada for that matter, not the one's who are stopped at the border before they get there.

As a Canadian when you drive over and then come back, CANADIAN border agents are allowed to take your car apart piece by piece and have no duty to put it back together.

Your energy would best be focused there.

And I suppose that's fine for you, but I believe that there's something fundamentally wrong with this. I also think there's something wrong with what the Canadian border guards can do in some cases, but on the US side, they can do things that are the same and worse, IMO. You may not think this is a big deal, but I do. I will focus my energy, where I think it is best focused.

[White Doors]

or you could just not go back?

but whatever floats your boat.

Some may say it would be smug of you to think that you can change another country's laws because to you, as a foreigner, you find them inconvenient.

The laws of a foreign country are made for the benefit of the people living there.

Same as here.

I'm sure if you reversed the role and had an American complaining about a Canadian law that they find 'inconvenient' for them as Americans - you would be the first to tell them to eat cake.

But it's ok for you to do that eh?

Edited August 13, 2008 by White Doors

[msj]

or you could just not go back?

but whatever floats your boat.

Some may say it would be smug of you to think that you can change another country's laws because to you, as a foreigner, you find them inconvenient.

The laws of a foreign country are made for the benefit of the people living there.

Same as here.

I'm sure if you reversed the role and had an American complaining about a Canadian law that they find 'inconvenient' for them as Americans - you would be the first to tell them to eat cake.

But it's ok for you to do that eh?

I really don't understand this attitude; especially given Smallc's post on August 12.

This is a forum where people come here to discuss issues and make complaints.

Anyone who values freedom of speech should be able to appreciate that no matter what country people are in should not be a barrier to discussing policy.

Anyone who values property rights rather than unrestrained government knows that putting unreasonable policies in place at the border is no excuse nor justification for the government abuse that results from such policies.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Anyone who values property rights rather than unrestrained government knows that putting unreasonable policies in place at the border is no excuse nor justification for the government abuse that results from such policies.

Unreasonable to who? Do you have equivalent outrage for domestic law enforcement and tax revenue policies with respect to wage garnishments, property seizures, impoundments, forfeitures, or even school locker inspections? Why the hell would any "reasonable" person believe he/she would escape such "burdens" on liberty just because it involves border entry into another sovereign state, of all places?

Hell, I can't even take a bag of apples from Nevada to California without them being subject to confiscation, and for a damn good reason.

Edited August 16, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest American Woman]

CBC

I will have to think very hard about whether or not I go back to the US any time soon. I have no desire to have any devices seized without reason. I think many Canadians will be giving this a long hard look as will many Americans as they are subject to the same thing when returning home.

Do you think the Canada Border Service Agency had a reason to seize this couple's laptop? (Canadian border agents seize gay couple's laptop). According to the article, there was nothing illegal on it.

As Wilbur has already pointed out, there's not going to be a mad takeover of people's computers and cellphones, because, as he said, the government doesn't have the means or the time to go through every Tom, Dick, and Harry's laptop and cellphone. They say they don't need a reason, but I can't imagine them doing it if they don't have a reason. I don't agree with the law, but I don't agree with Canada seizing that gay couple's laptop, either.

.... if you are a Canadian with a DUI, you cannot get into the US.

Where did you hear that? That's not true.

Edited August 16, 2008 by American Woman

[msj]

Do you think the Canada Border Service Agency had a reason to seize this couple's laptop? (Canadian border agents seize gay couple's laptop). According to the article, there was nothing illegal on it.

Not to put words into Smallc's mouth or anything but what do you people not understand when he has already written (bolded and underlined by me):

I also think there's something wrong with what the Canadian border guards can do in some cases, but on the US side, they can do things that are the same and worse, IMO.

[Smallc]

Not to put words into Smallc's mouth or anything but what do you people not understand when he has already written (bolded and underlined by me):

Exactly. What I'm doing here is not attacking the US, but really speaking out against this post 911 belief that everyone should be considered guilty first. Its results in infringements of what I see as things that should be basic rights.

When we become paranoid like this, the reality is, IMO, that the terrorists were completely successful.

[Guest American Woman]

QUOTE(American Woman @ Aug 15 2008, 04:25 PM)

Do you think the Canada Border Service Agency had a reason to seize this couple's laptop? (Canadian border agents seize gay couple's laptop). According to the article, there was nothing illegal on it.

Not to put words into Smallc's mouth or anything but what do you people not understand when he has already written (bolded and underlined by me):

QUOTE(Smallc @ Aug 12 2008, 11:16 AM)

I also think there's something wrong with what the Canadian border guards can do in some cases, but on the US side, they can do things that are the same and worse, IMO.

Yes, I'd already read that, even before you bolded and underlined it. I also read what you didn't put in bold letters and underline-- the "but" part: "but on the US side, they can do things that are the same and worse, IMO." And that's the part I was responding to. I'd like to know how it's "worse" that the U.S. can seize laptops for 'no reason' when I gave an example of Canada doing exactly that. Seems to me things are always "worse" in some people's mind when the U.S. is doing it, because I really fail to see how U.S. border guards seizing laptops is worse than Canadian border guards seizing them.

You also left out this part of the quote: "You may not think this is a big deal, but I do. I will focus my energy, where I think it is best focused." I find it odd that a Canadian would think it's best to focus on the things U.S. border guards do when Canadian border guards are doing the very thing being criticized, which is why I asked smallc if he thought the Canadian border guards had the right to seize the laptop of the couple I posted about. I'm still waiting for an answer to the question, and I'll now direct the same question to you.

[Smallc]

Not to put words into Smallc's mouth or anything but what do you people not understand when he has already written (bolded and underlined by me):

Yes, I'd already read that, even before you bolded and underlined it. I also read what you didn't put in bold letters and underline-- the "but" part: "but on the US side, they can do things that are the same and worse, IMO." And that's the part I was responding to. I'd like to know how it's "worse" that the U.S. can seize laptops for 'no reason' when I gave an example of Canada doing exactly that. Seems to me things are always "worse" in some people's mind when the U.S. is doing it, because I really fail to see how U.S. border guards seizing laptops is worse than Canadian border guards seizing them.

You also left out this part of the quote: "You may not think this is a big deal, but I do. I will focus my energy, where I think it is best focused." I find it odd that a Canadian would think it's best to focus on the things U.S. border guards do when Canadian border guards are doing the very thing being criticized, which is why I asked smallc if he thought the Canadian border guards had the right to seize the laptop of the couple I posted about. I'm still waiting for an answer to the question, and I'll now direct the same question to you.

Canadian border guards do not have near the scope of power that US border guards do. In Canada for example, a person can be present while their possessions are being searched. In the US, they can lock you in a room (if I had been present during a search that happened when I crossed the border, or if they had simply asked for my help, they wouldn't have broken my truck). There are many other differing rules that I'm sure that I could find.

In the case you gave, we really don't know all of the facts. It may have been wrong, but we really don't know. What we have a is an unconfirmed story that may be true, partially true, or completely false.

Edited August 16, 2008 by Smallc

[bush_cheney2004]

Canadian border guards do not have near the scope of power that US border guards do. In Canada for example, a person can be present while their possessions are being searched. In the US, they can lock you in a room (if I had been present during a search that happened when I crossed the border, or if they had simply asked for my help, they wouldn't have broken my truck). There are many other differing rules that I'm sure that I could find.

They still could have "broken your truck" (is that what is driving your position?). Or taken it apart down to the frame. Please find all those differing rules if they exist. BTW, your story may be true, but it is unconfirmed too.

[Guest American Woman]

Canadian border guards do not have near the scope of power that US border guards do. In Canada for example, a person can be present while their possessions are being searched. In the US, they can lock you in a room (if I had been present during a search that happened when I crossed the border, or if they had simply asked for my help, they wouldn't have broken my truck). There are many other differing rules that I'm sure that I could find.

In the case you gave, we really don't know all of the facts. It may have been wrong, but we really don't know. What we have a is an unconfirmed story that may be true, partially true, or completely false.

Simply saying that 'we don't know if it's wrong' is one way to completely avoid commenting on what's going on in your own country, eh? But just for the record, regarding your story, we don't really know all of the facts. It may be wrong, but we don't really know. What we have a is an unconfirmed story that may be true, partially true, or completely false.

Here's more for you: Canadian border guards can seize your iPod

A U. S. Department of Homeland Security border policy raised questions last week. It allows for detention of electronic devices at the U. S. border for an indeterminate time and without cause so that officers can search through the data they contain in hopes of finding links that lead to terrorist and other criminal activity.

Canadian officials say they too can look through "electronic storage devices," and can detain the item in question "for further examinations," if a traveler refuses to provide passwords to allow access to his files.

A CBSA spokesperson, responding via e-mail, pointed to s. 99 of the Customs Act, which allows CBSA officers to examine personal baggage, conveyances and goods when travelers enter or leave Canada.

"This could include the examination of electronic storage devices that may contain prohibited materials," the e-mail stated.

And from The Vancouver Sun:

In Canada, border guards already perform random searches of laptops at airports to check for child pornography.

"Random searches of laptops" sounds an awful lot like what U.S. border guards are doing. In fact, one could say:

Its results in infringements of what I see as things that should be basic rights.

Edited August 16, 2008 by American Woman

[Smallc]

Simply saying that 'we don't know if it's wrong' is one way to completely avoid commenting on what's going on in your own country, eh? But just for the record, regarding your story, we don't really know all of the facts. It may be wrong, but we don't really know. What we have a is an unconfirmed story that may be true, partially true, or completely false.

Here's more for you: Canadian border guards can seize your iPod

A U. S. Department of Homeland Security border policy raised questions last week. It allows for detention of electronic devices at the U. S. border for an indeterminate time and without cause so that officers can search through the data they contain in hopes of finding links that lead to terrorist and other criminal activity.

Canadian officials say they too can look through "electronic storage devices," and can detain the item in question "for further examinations," if a traveler refuses to provide passwords to allow access to his files.

A CBSA spokesperson, responding via e-mail, pointed to s. 99 of the Customs Act, which allows CBSA officers to examine personal baggage, conveyances and goods when travelers enter or leave Canada.

"This could include the examination of electronic storage devices that may contain prohibited materials," the e-mail stated.

And from The Vancouver Sun:

In Canada, border guards already perform random searches of laptops at airports to check for child pornography.

"Random searches of laptops" sounds an awful lot like what U.S. border guards are doing. In fact, one could say:

Its not the same thing at all. They can only take in at the Canadian border if there is reason or if you don't provide a password. At the current time, US authorities can take it for no reason. I have no problem with searches. I have problems with seizure without warrant. Also, on the Canadian side, I can watch them search my stuff. On the US side, I can't.

Edited August 16, 2008 by Smallc

[Guest American Woman]

But lest say I'm a traveler simply going to the US for a vacation. Under this rule they could take my cell phone or black berry. I can tell your right now, that I would be turning back at the border if that were to happen. I will not be visiting the US until this wave of paranoia and protectionism passes.....maybe that means I won't be going back, who knows?

Speaking of waves of paranoia, you keep going on and on about "no reason," as if the U.S. border guards are going to be seizing laptops and blackberries left and right "for no reason." As has been pointed out time and again, it would make no sense to seize them for "no reason." But if there is a reason, they will seize them-- same as in Canada when random checks are made.

So regarding your "problems with seizures without warrants," as long as you're not planning on coming to the States for the next ten years, or perhaps never again, and as long as you can convince yourself that it's not happening in Canada-- that people are just making their stories up when it involves Canadian border guards seizing their property without a warrant -- you shouldn't have any problems, eh?

But I have to say, I find it interesting that you don't think 'randomly demanding passwords and access to private information' results in "infringements of things that should be basic rights."

"They used to say that wiretapping had the potential to be the atom bomb of privacy," said Scott Hutchison, a Toronto-based lawyer who specializes in search-and-seizure law. "Well, if wiretapping was the atom bomb, then casual rules about computer seizures are the hydrogen bomb."

Until recently, law enforcement officials who sought access to someone's call history, e-mails and other personal files were required to obtain a search warrant from a judge before accessing computer hard drives or phone records. But such legislation was enacted before e-mail-equipped cellphones and other mobile electronics became commonplace. link. Now Canadian border guards can access anyone's laptop, etc., without any reason, and if they find anything suspicious, they can seize it. Why you would be ok with that while being so up in arms over the U.S. is difficult to understand.

As I said, I don't agree with either country randomly accessing private information, demanding passwords, because one nation's actions aren't just fine and dandy while the other's is the epitome of the invasion of one's rights.

Edited August 16, 2008 by American Woman

[Smallc]

As I said, I don't agree with either country randomly accessing private information, demanding passwords, because one nation's actions aren't just fine and dandy while the other's is the epitome of the invasion of one's rights.

I've already said the same thing. I take issue with this particular case because they can now take things away whenever they please. I'm not saying they will, but they could.

[Guest American Woman]

The reality of the situation will be the same in the U.S. as it is in Canada. Laptops, blackberries, etc., can, and will be, checked randomly for no reason in both countries. If the Canadian border guards think there is a reason to seize it, they will seize it. Without a warrant. Same as in the Sates. Because it makes no sense at all that border guards here would seize anyone's laptop or blackberry if there wasn't any reason to do so. To think otherwise is to be filled with the "paranoia" that you accuse the U.S. of.

So you best not travel outside of Canada at all as you will be subjected to random searches by your own border guards upon your return, and your property will be seized without a warrant if they feel there is a reason to do so.

Try as you might to make the U.S. worse, in reality, one nation's policy is as bad as the other's.

Edited August 16, 2008 by American Woman

[Topaz]

So now with this law we will have both, US and Canadians hiding their downloads from their computer just to make sure they don't lose their info. So any pictures taken by your camera, you better mail the info. home and hope they don't stop the parcel at the border.

[bush_cheney2004]

So now with this law we will have both, US and Canadians hiding their downloads from their computer just to make sure they don't lose their info. So any pictures taken by your camera, you better mail the info. home and hope they don't stop the parcel at the border.

That's a great idea for perps with something to hide. The rest of us will just travel with our mobile devices and cameras as usual, just like my wife did last week to Canada and back....no problem.

[GostHacked]

That's a great idea for perps with something to hide. The rest of us will just travel with our mobile devices and cameras as usual, just like my wife did last week to Canada and back....no problem.

You could unkowingly have stuff on your hard drive that you never put there. IF it is questionable material, then you are done.