U.S. border agents given power to seize travellers' laptops, cellp

[Topaz]

There's one group that goes back and forth across the border everyday and I'm sure they have cellphones and maybe laptop and that is the truckers. I wonder if they are taking theirs??

[Wilber]

Not a trucker but I've been taking mine across every week this summer. Never even been asked if I have a laptop.

[bush_cheney2004]

Not a trucker but I've been taking mine across every week this summer. Never even been asked if I have a laptop.

Oh shucks...you ruined all the fun! ...and hype.

[Smallc]

Oh shucks...you ruined all the fun! ...and hype.

Just because it hasn't happened to him doesn't mean it isn't wrong.

[msj]

Actually, under the new rules, they can take that too.

But lest say I'm a traveler simply going to the US for a vacation. Under this rule they could take my cell phone or black berry. I can tell your right now, that I would be turning back at the border if that were to happen. I will not be visiting the US until this wave of paranoia and protectionism passes.....maybe that means I won't be going back, who knows?

This is what my wife and I have to decide.

Have a trip to the Oregon coast planned. Even paid some of the hotel costs and made a reservation on the Port Angeles ferry.

For me it will be/would be a picture taking trip. I need the laptop to upload pictures for back up purposes etc...

The trip also would be less pleasant without our Archos and Ipod.

Right now we are 50/50 on canceling and flying to Quebec City/Montreal which was our second choice.

Anyway, here is a more technological look at the effect of the policy:

The terrors of travelling with data

Edited August 9, 2008 by msj

[bush_cheney2004]

Just because it hasn't happened to him doesn't mean it isn't wrong.

But it's not "wrong" at all...quite legal dont'cha know. I ask again....what makes this class of personal electronics so damn special?

If you wish to protest the policy or fear the very unlikely seizure of pirated Brittney Spears MP3 files, just stay home.

Or go elsewhere. The USA will survive some how.

[Riverwind]

I ask again....what makes this class of personal electronics so damn special?

They can be expensive and having them arbitrary confiscated would cause great inconvenience. There is also a big difference between a customs agent rummaging through your underware in your suitcase before letting you pass and keeping copies of your 'electronic underware' for future investigation. Edited August 9, 2008 by Riverwind

[Wilber]

I believe the Canadians can do the same thing. Several times I have heard instances of where CBSA have found major amounts of kiddy porn on laptops coming across the border. I think these seizures are targeted individuals based on intelligence and assume the Americans do the same. They really don't have the time to root through every Tom, Dick and Harry's hard drive.

[bush_cheney2004]

They can be expensive and having them arbitrary confiscated would cause great inconvenience. There is also a big difference between a customs agent rummaging through your underware in your suitcase before letting you pass and keeping copies of your 'electronic underware' for future investigation.

So this is really about convenience? And electronic privacy...just because it's digital? Why is this storage and access medium more sensitive than bygone methods and products?

[bush_cheney2004]

I believe the Canadians can do the same thing. Several times I have heard instances of where CBSA have found major amounts of kiddy porn on laptops coming across the border. I think these seizures are targeted individuals based on intelligence and assume the Americans do the same. They really don't have the time to root through every Tom, Dick and Harry's hard drive.

Agreed....there are practical limitations to such a policy, and frankly, I would think it very incompetent to not target this source of contraband and intelligence gathering. I have nothing to hide from the Canada Border Services Agency....or their American equivalent.

Scan away!

[Smallc]

I believe the Canadians can do the same thing. Several times I have heard instances of where CBSA have found major amounts of kiddy porn on laptops coming across the border. I think these seizures are targeted individuals based on intelligence and assume the Americans do the same. They really don't have the time to root through every Tom, Dick and Harry's hard drive.

They can look at it, yes, but they can only take it if there is reason. In this case the US guards can take any documents and keep them for a s long as they please. They can also share them with any other agency.

[Smallc]

But it's not "wrong" at all...quite legal dont'cha know. I ask again....what makes this class of personal electronics so damn special?

Don't care if its legal, still wrong. If I haven't done anything wrong, they shouldn't be able to take something of mine. Also, its not just electronics, but any documents.

[bush_cheney2004]

Don't care if its legal, still wrong. If I haven't done anything wrong, they shouldn't be able to take something of mine. Also, its not just electronics, but any documents.

Opinion noted, but when you are attempting to cross the border into another sovereign state, your opinion is not relevant. If you find such policies to be unacceptable, do not present at the border.

Nobody is forcing you to be subjected to arbitrary search and seizure.

Edited August 9, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Riverwind]

So this is really about convenience?

Losing my laptop when travelling for business is a lot more than a little inconvenient - it would cost me a lot of money. There are also the legal issues if I happen to be carrying information which I am required to keep secret. This applies to corporate information as well as government documents - for example: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1047_3-5499814.html

There are no protocols to cover corporate trade secrets.

Why is this storage and access medium more sensitive than bygone methods and products?

Because it can be copied and used without your knowledge. If a customs official is rummanging through my underwear the underwear is still under my control - not so if he takes a copy of my hard drive. Edited August 9, 2008 by Riverwind

[Smallc]

Opinion noted, but when you are attempting to cross the border into another sovereign state, you opinion is not relevant. If you find such policies to be unacceptable, do not present at the border.

Nobody is forcing you to be subjected to arbitrary search and seizure.

I wonder how your own returning citizens who are subjected to the same rules will feel? So much for the land of the free.

[bush_cheney2004]

Losing my laptop when travelling for business is a lot more than a little inconvenient - it would cost me a lot of money. There are also the legal issues if I happen to be carrying information which I am required to keep secret (this applies to corporate information as well as government documents).

There are lots of ways to lose a laptop on business travel.....this would be one of the better ways. I hope you were well prepared for such an event before the border bogeyman issue came up.

Because it can be copied and used without your knowledge. If a customs official is rummanging through my underwear the underwear is still under my control - not so if he takes a copy of my hard drive.

They can take your underwear too. Laws and methods are only now catching up to technology. The intent is the same.

[bush_cheney2004]

I wonder how your own returning citizens who are subjected to the same rules will feel? So much for the land of the free.

You are the one wishing access to a foreign country. If you have a problem with the United States at any level, just stay home. The Americans will complain just as you do. So what?

[Riverwind]

There are lots of ways to lose a laptop on business travel.....this would be one of the better ways. I hope you were well prepared for such an event before the border bogeyman issue came up.

Obviously I am prepared for such an event with backups, however, my insurance pays me to replace a stolen laptop. I doubt it would cover confiscation by border officials nor would it help me if they confiscate my backups as well.

There are alse no protocols to cover corporate trade secrets and this is not a hypothetical problem: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1047_3-5499814.html. Someone working on a senstive project would likely have e-mails discussing it. It is not reasonable to expect someone to leave their e-mail file behind when travelling.

Edited August 9, 2008 by Riverwind

[bush_cheney2004]

double post

Edited August 9, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[bush_cheney2004]

Obviously I am prepared for such an event with backups, however, my insurance pays me to replace a stolen laptop. I doubt it would cover confiscation by border officials nor would it help me if they confiscate my backups as well.

There are alse no protocols to cover corporate trade secrets and this is not a hypothetical problem: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1047_3-5499814.html. Someone working on a senstive project would likely have e-mails discussing it. It is not reasonable to expect someone to leave their e-mail file behind when travelling.

But it is reasonable to permit crossings unchallenged for contraband, kiddie-porn, or plans for a nuclear trigger? E-mail is readily available with web applications. Technology is both villain and hero in this scenario.

BTW, paper documents can be copied too...it is a much older technology.

[Riverwind]

But it is reasonable to permit crossings unchallenged for contraband, kiddie-porn, or plans for a nuclear trigger?

The argument cuts both ways. Anyone who knowingly wishes to transport such information would never need to carry it on the laptop since they can down load it from the internet. A policy that inconviences many but would do nothing to deter or catch the criminals is a bad policy. I believe that is the primary argument against gun control which I thought you agreed with.

[bush_cheney2004]

The argument cuts both ways. Anyone who knowingly wishes to transport such information would never need to carry it on the laptop since they can down load it from the internet. A policy that inconviences many but would do nothing to deter or catch the criminals is a bad policy. I believe that is the primary argument against gun control which I thought you agreed with.

I don't think the analogy works well....there are physical security reasons to not only inspect your laptop and other devices, but even the vehicle in which you travel....anything under your control. But to your specific retort, internet servers are not a safe haven either.

[peter_puck]

I believe the Canadians can do the same thing. Several times I have heard instances of where CBSA have found major amounts of kiddy porn on laptops coming across the border. I think these seizures are targeted individuals based on intelligence and assume the Americans do the same. They really don't have the time to root through every Tom, Dick and Harry's hard drive.

I really don't have a problem with US customs seizing laptops if they have some sort of intelligence. What I would be afraid off is every single Muslin (or Sikh because border guards cannot tell the difference) having his laptop taken and not returned for 5 years.

I live near the US border, and I can tell you that a certain percentage of border guards are neither reasonable or intelligent. Furthermore, management turns a blind eye to their behavior. If you are a victim of one of these people, there is almost no ability to appeal. Your laptop may wind up in limbo because your border guard struck out at the bar.

[Wilber]

I live near the US border, and I can tell you that a certain percentage of border guards are neither reasonable or intelligent. Furthermore, management turns a blind eye to their behavior. If you are a victim of one of these people, there is almost no ability to appeal. Your laptop may wind up in limbo because your border guard struck out at the bar.

So do I. I find that most border personnel are pleasant enough although that is not always the case. Last Tuesday my truck was gone through because I had some firewood which turned out to be OK because it was several years old. They had a pretty good look through the truck however and asked a few other questions while they were at it. My laptop sitting on the back seat was never mentioned.

Airshow time, Thunderbirds are doing their thing and I can see them from the front yard at times. Bye.

[Smallc]

So do I. I find that most border personnel are pleasant enough although that is not always the case. Last Tuesday my truck was gone through because I had some firewood which turned out to be OK because it was several years old. They had a pretty good look through the truck however and asked a few other questions while they were at it. My laptop sitting on the back seat was never mentioned.

Airshow time, Thunderbirds are doing their thing and I can see them from the front yard at times. Bye.

When I last crossed the border they searched everything and even forogt to turn of both my digital and video camera. They also broke the Toneau cover on my parents truck becuase it was locked and they din't know how to open it. They took all of our possesions before the search and made us sign papers aying that we were bringing nothing into the US. In the end they found nothing, because there was nothing to find. The fact that they did not turn off the devices after they were finnished and also broke part of our vehicle left a very sour taste in my mouth. It is part of the reason that I decided not to return this summer. This new law is just one more reason to stay north of the border.