Olympics

[Oleg Bach]

The original date of the games is July 25th to August 10th , but the meteorological research show thunderstorm often happened historically during these days in Beijing, and it is also too hot. The meteorologists suggeted to defer the games two, three or five weeks. Three or five weeks is better from the meteorologists's point of view for the days are cooler and more rainless, but they conflict with some athletes's time-table of their domestic tournaments. So IOC eventually chose August 8th(2 week later from July 25th) as the day of opening ceremoney. It is just a coincidence.

Hate to sound like a Biblical jerk - but anyone discussing the Beijing games in a tone of normality and exceptance is pure evil - and as I always say evil is akin to stupidiy based in selfishness. What untill you or your grandchildren are enslaved by the utlitariate...and you call out for help - and no one will come - it will look good on you and yours as you suffer the way a billion in China do..goes around comes around - slavery is bad and should never be condoned as you are doing now .

[xul]

The majority of those golds were for events which rely on judges and we all know that sport judges are unbaised professionals that would not be swayed by personal interest or potential quid pro quo (not).

Lets count the compose of the gold medal of Chinese athletes:

[GROUP 1]

Weight lifting:--9

shooting--------5

archery---------1

Judo------------3

fencing---------1

swimming-------1

badminton-----3

rowing---------3

wrestling-------1

table tennis----4

boxing----------2

Taekwondo----1

sum------------34

[GROUP 2]

diving: 6

gymnastics: 9

trampoline 2

sum-----------17

Usually Group 1 such as weight lifting,shooting, fencing and boxing can be considered as they can hardly effect by judges. In Group 2, China traditionally take lead in these competition. So only the medals of gymnastics and trampoline can be considered to be effect by judges.

And I'm not sure but I don't think judges are chosen by host so I agree in some events judge might do little favour to host athletes.

In 2004 Olympic Games, Chinese athletes get 32 gold medals and American athletes get 35 heading the list, the gap was not very big, so as host China catch up America is reasonable.

In any case, I think the medal list is not import in sports meaning. I think it mainly means if a country have someones (government or business) who like to fund the athletes to get success.

There also the matter of the under age gymnasts which the IOC would like to ignore except there are now public records from other competitions where the gymnasts claimed to be younger than they are today. The Chinese should be quite proud of a government that will forge documents in order to maximize their chances of a gold. Of course, the chinese will likely never hear that story because they live in a country where the government rountinely supresses embarrassing news.

I'm not sure, but I guess the yanger ages which showed in a website(I suppose the ages of the newsletter come from the same source ) just due to some CPC's local official's stupid mistake, not due to a real age fraud. Please think about it, What is the good for CPC which can gain from this would-be fraud? The honor of two additional gold medals? As gymnasts, who can guarantee them could certainly get the medals? But what is risky? There are doctors and nurses, relatives, neighbors, teachers, classmates, policeofficers, coaches, fellow gymnasts...maybe there are nearly a hundred of people who know their real age. How about if one day one of them immigrates to Canada and leaks the secret to theStar? how would CPC do to protect them from the scandal?

Edited August 25, 2008 by xul

[Riverwind]

What is the good for CPC which can gain from this would-be fraud? The honor of two additional gold medals? As gymnasts, who can guarantee them could certainly get the medals? But what is risky?

We are talking about a regime run by depots who believe they can control the media and are obsessed with saving face. The IOC will, of course, claim that the other records were wrong but there appear to be multiple records which means the more plausible explanation is the Chinese government falsified documents.

how would CPC do to protect them from the scandal?

Do what it always does - deny, deny, deny. The IOC has been licking the boots of the regime for years so I am certain the Chinese leadership believe the IOC would back them up no matter what. Edited August 25, 2008 by Riverwind

[Wilber]

Don't kid yourselves, the Chinese are a very proud people who are very proud of their country and its achievements regardless of the regime running it. This was really important to them regardless of the politics.

[xul]

Hate to sound like a Biblical jerk - but anyone discussing the Beijing games in a tone of normality and exceptance is pure evil - and as I always say evil is akin to stupidiy based in selfishness. What untill you or your grandchildren are enslaved by the utlitariate...and you call out for help - and no one will come - it will look good on you and yours as you suffer the way a billion in China do..goes around comes around - slavery is bad and should never be condoned as you are doing now .

I think you don't know how an authoritarian system works.

Under a system if an athlete who go to a foreign country for Olympic Games also needs to do something to show his "politic-correctness" all the time to cater for the decree of a dominant power, the system is a really authoritarian system and the dominant power is equivalent with the dictator whether it is called a king, a chairman or a media.

[xul]

Don't kid yourselves, the Chinese are a very proud people who are very proud of their country and its achievements regardless of the regime running it. This was really important to them regardless of the politics.

Just like Britisher are also very proud of their nation's history regardless for thousands years of the history their king and his "regime" were also not elected

Edited August 25, 2008 by xul

[Guest American Woman]

The majority of those golds were for events which rely on judges and we all know that sport judges are unbaised professionals that would not be swayed by personal interest or potential quid pro quo (not).

Is that what you say about the Gold Medal winners of these events every time the Olympics are held?

There also the matter of the under age gymnasts which the IOC would like to ignore except there are now public records from other competitions where the gymnasts claimed to be younger than they are today. The Chinese should be quite proud of a government that will forge documents in order to maximize their chances of a gold.

Until it's proven that the Chinese government forged signatures, it's no more than an allegation. But let's face it, all of our nations have had athletes that 'cheat' in order to maximize their chances of getting the Gold. Seems as if China is being scrutinized as no other nation has been scrutinized before and judged and criticized as no other nation has been judged and criticized. Furthermore, without taking this thread off on another issue, in our nations' histories our governments have done worse than forge documents for the Olympics. Furthermore, our citizens elected those governments.

Of course, the chinese will likely never hear that story because they live in a country where the government rountinely supresses embarrassing news.

And of course our governments are so forthcoming with our embarrassing news.

The Games are supposed to be about good will. China put on a good show and is to be commended for it.

[Riverwind]

Is that what you say about the Gold Medal winners of these events every time the Olympics are held?

Yes - since the various judging fiascos have come to light.

The Games are supposed to be about good will. China put on a good show and is to be commended for it.

Good will only goes to those who deserve it. The beijing government deserves none until it stops supressing free speech and its people - it promised to do that for the games but reneged and the IOC said nothing. It also deserves no respect as long as it continues it childish behavoir when it comes to Taiwan.

[Fortunata]

Good will only goes to those who deserve it. The beijing government deserves none until it stops supressing free speech and its people - it promised to do that for the games but reneged and the IOC said nothing. It also deserves no respect as long as it continues it childish behavoir when it comes to Taiwan.

When we come as far as China has in the last 20 or so years then we have room to talk. They are moving forward (maybe at a pace that is slower than we wish it to be) and we are trying to move backwards into capital punishment, anti-abortion and our government pays lip service to global warming and humanitarianism. China - secretive and dictatorial? Look at the Harper government! Quite the backward change from even out last government. Human rights? Oh yeah, let's hear about Khadr and Harper's "supporting" the Iraq war where it is US approved torture. Suppressing free speech? You mean like Harper's MPs not being able to say anything without clearing it with his office first? Childish? You mean like Harper's hypocritical stance on China?

[Riverwind]

we are trying to move backwards into capital punishment, anti-abortion and our government pays lip service to global warming and humanitarianism.

Last time I checked those are legimate topics for political discussion in this country and people with all views are free to express them which is light years a head of anything is happening in China. Are you suggesting that such discussions be outlawed? If so that would explain your willingness to pander to the Chinese despots.

China - secretive and dictatorial? Look at the Harper government!

I am no fan of Harper's tactics on a number of issues including that one, however, your attempt to compare the brutal supression of Chinese citizens to the Harper government is downright pathetic. In any case, no matter what you think of Harper you are free to express your opinion without fear of being sent to a re-education camp. That is a luxery that the Chinese do not enjoy and will not likely enjoy for the foreseeable future. Now you could argue we have no business telling the Chinese how to run their country and I might be inclined to agree, however, I am not going to pretend I respect a bunch of childish thugs because "they have come a long way". Freedom of the press is not hard to do and there is no excuse for not allowing it no matter what level of development a country has. Edited August 25, 2008 by Riverwind

[Guest American Woman]

Without getting into your feelings about the government, you do realize that the Olympics is something the Chinese people are proud of, right? They put a lot of effort into it too, and are proud of their country the way I am proud of mine even though I'm not always proud of our government (such as the present administration).

Furthermore, saying good will is only due those who deserve it is like saying the Golden Rule should be 'do unto others as they do unto you.'

Again, the Olympics is supposed to put aside political dissent and be about good will. It's supposed to be a time to rejoice in the accomplishments of the people, and obviously a lot of people put a lot of time, effort, and talent into the Beijing Olympics. They deserve acknowledgment for that, and they should feel pride. They are proud that the rest of the world got to see some of their talent, history, and accomplishments-- and they should be. I support them 100%.

[capricorn]

I am no fan of Harper's tactics on a number of issues including that one, however, your attempt to compare the brutal supression of Chinese citizens to the Harper government is downright pathetic.

I suppose it's normal for some people to believe that our government operates at a lower standard than the lowliest of corrupted and oppressive countries. Of course, those same individuals make an exception when their preferred party is in power.

[Fortunata]

Last time I checked those are legimate topics for political discussion in this country and people with all views are free to express them which is light years a head of anything is happening in China. Are you suggesting that such discussions be outlawed? If so that would explain your willingness to pander to the Chinese despots.

No, I'm not suggesting such discussions outlawed. Here is a perfect example of differences of acceptability. To you, perhaps capital punishment and criminalizing abortion is acceptable, where to others it would not be. Same thing between countries and cultures (do not confuse this statement with my acceptance of where China stands on various issues). To me, going back is unthinkable and regressive - I want to go forward. And China is slowly going forward. Berating them in public is not going to make things go faster.

I am no fan of Harper's tactics on a number of issues including that one, however, your attempt to compare the brutal supression of Chinese citizens to the Harper government is downright pathetic. In any case, no matter what you think of Harper you are free to express your opinion without fear of being sent to a re-education camp. That is a luxery that the Chinese do not enjoy and will not likely enjoy for the foreseeable future. Now you could argue we have no business telling the Chinese how to run their country and I might be inclined to agree, however, I am not going to pretend I respect a bunch of childish thugs because "they have come a long way". Freedom of the press is not hard to do and there is no excuse for not allowing it no matter what level of development a country has.

No, the (imo regressive) Harper government isn't as bad as the Chinese government, but in 20 years they have made leaps and bounds that you can't appreciate maybe because you don't know where they were. And the point is, we're not perfect either. In fact, that's the whole point. And in another 20 years will they be looking at us and our on-going record on aboriginal affairs,etc. and internationally denouncing stuff we have done?

eta: I don't want to stick up for China actually but reading AW's posts I realize that they ARE moving forward. We can't expect a complete turnaround overnight. It won't happen in any society why would we expect it in a society of over a billion people?

Edited August 26, 2008 by Fortunata

[Guest American Woman]

eta: I don't want to stick up for China actually but reading AW's posts I realize that they ARE moving forward. We can't expect a complete turnaround overnight. It won't happen in any society why would we expect it in a society of over a billion people?

Yes, they are moving forward, and that's a good thing. Exposing themselves to the world they way they did with the Olympics can only make it better, I would think.

I have to say, the world sure is quicker to be there to criticize and ostracize China than it is to help. Where was the rest of the world when the young people were revolting in Tianenman Square, for example?

I don't see how ignoring a nation will help it progress. Seems to me if the people feel as if they have something to offer the world, and the Chinese do, they will be more likely to want to be part of that world; accepted in that world. If the world is going to spit on them, why shouldn't they feel like just spitting back?

Seems to me part of China's moving forward is going to require that the rest of the world acknowledge it and give credit where credit is due; especially when it comes to the people. It's pretty difficult to ignore 1.2 billion people for any length of time, especially when their economy is growing the way China's is, and those people have a strong sense of pride in their country.

Edited August 27, 2008 by American Woman

[Riverwind]

Seems to me part of China's moving forward is going to require that the rest of the world acknowledge it and give credit where credit is due; especially when it comes to the people. It's pretty difficult to ignore 1.2 billion people for any length of time, especially when their economy is growing the way China's is, and those people have a strong sense of pride in their country.

A few points:

1) The example of Russia demonstrates that democracy and freedom are not inevitable. The thugs in Beijing want to keep power forever and it is possible that they will succeed.

2) If you want to give credit where credit is due you should be congratulating the Indians who have managed to maintain a healthy democracy and a free press despite having a huge poor population which is more ethnically diverse than the Chinese. The success the Indian democracy is even more amazing when you compare it to what is happening in Russia.

3) No one said anything about ignoring China. This is about recognizing that international respect requires more than the ability to whip enough people long enough to ensure they can put on a good circus. There is a old saying about the people most worthy of respect don't go around demanding it. I think this applies to nations too. India does not waste its time with circuses but quietly focuses on improving the lives of its citizens while living up to western standards when it comes to democracy and press freedoms. India does not need to demand respect because it has earned it. China has not and will not as long as the thugs in Beijing think that circuses are a substitute for real progress on human rights.

Edited August 27, 2008 by Riverwind

[Guest American Woman]

A few points:

1) The example of Russia demonstrates that democracy and freedom are not inevitable. The thugs in Beijing want to keep power forever and it is possible that they will succeed.

2) If you want to give credit where credit is due you should be congratulating the Indians who have managed to maintain a healthy democracy and a free press despite having a huge poor population which is more ethnically diverse than the Chinese. The success the Indian democracy is even more amazing when you compare it to what is happening in Russia.

3) No one said anything about ignoring China. This is about recognizing that international respect requires more than the ability to whip enough people long enough to ensure they can put on a good circus. There is a old saying about the people most worthy of respect don't go around demanding it. I think this applies to nations too. India does not waste its time with circuses but quietly focuses on improving the lives of its citizens while living up to western standards when it comes to democracy and press freedoms. India does not need to demand respect because it has earned it. China has not and will not as long as the thugs in Beijing think that circuses are a substitute for real progress on human rights.

I'm not sure how this became about India, but I'll start off by saying I can respect more than one nation at a time. I can give credit to India even as I recognize the progress that China has made. I'll add that you don't know the Chinese very well if you think they were "whipped" into "putting on a good Circus" Olympic Games. And since you seem so focused on India, I'll quote the Indian National Congress Party Chairman, Sonia Gandhi:

People in India admire the tremendous progress China has made since it began its economic reforms in 1978. You have shown the world that it is possible in a relatively short time to substantially eradicate poverty, to inculcate dynamism and to unleash the forces of social and economic creativity. You have successfully transformed China into a dominant force in the global economy.

This is the China that we respect ...

China has shown the world how much can be achieved with pragmatism, clarity of vision and determination of effort.

Our two economies have a great deal in common. I believe we have much to learn from the way that you [China] have approached economic reforms and liberalization. I was last in China eleven years ago. The pace of change I see is truly astounding. link

[Riverwind]

I'm not sure how this became about India, but I'll start off by saying I can respect more than one nation at a time.

Part of the difference of opinion stems from the fact that I consider the olympics to be a farce and an exercise in propoganda no matter who hosts it and that being proud of one's country because they staged the olympic games is like being proud of having the world's largest collection of rubber bands. Both achievements require effort but they don't mean much. But making progress on human rights and developing a culture of democracy not only requires work - it actually means something beyond the 3 weeks of the event.

I used the example of India to demonstrate that other developing countries are succeeding where china is failing miserably. In any case, this forum is for exchanging honest opinions - not polite nicities. If I was responsible managing the diplomatic relationship between Canada and China and would likely be quite effusive in my praise even though I have a low opinion of the "accomplishment".

[M.Dancer]

China is a pro choice dream come true....there, women are forced to have abortions.....it's okay though, it's the regimes choice, and they're pros.

[Wilber]

I don't see how ignoring a nation will help it progress.

Perhaps it is time to apply the principle to Cuba.

[Guest American Woman]

Part of the difference of opinion stems from the fact that I consider the olympics to be a farce and an exercise in propoganda no matter who hosts it and that being proud of one's country because they staged the olympic games is like being proud of having the world's largest collection of rubber bands.

If that's your view of the Olympics, so be it; but it has nothing to do with China then. So instead of saying that China has nothing to be proud of because they hosted an impressive Olympic Game, making it sound personal, you really are saying that in your mind no nation should be proud of having done it because there's nothing to be proud of in your mind.

Both achievements require effort but they don't mean much.

I think hosting the Olympic Games might require a bit more effort than having the world's largest collection of rubber bands.

But making progress on human rights and developing a culture of democracy not only requires work - it actually means something beyond the 3 weeks of the event.

Again, this thread is about the Olympics, so that's what my comments were in regards to. But as I pointed out, the attempts by the students in Tianenman Square got no support from the rest of the world. I don't see it as an easy road, but then my nation has struggled to right wrongs too.

I do think that China's hosting the Olympics will mean something beyond the three weeks of the event, though. That's been one of the points I've been making.

I used the example of India to demonstrate that other developing countries are succeeding where china is failing miserably. In any case, this forum is for exchanging honest opinions - not polite nicities. If I was responsible managing the diplomatic relationship between Canada and China and would likely be quite effusive in my praise even though I have a low opinion of the "accomplishment".

India and China don't have the same type of government or the same history, so one can hardly justifiably compare them. Furthermore, countries don't all move along at the same pace. Along that line, I have to agree with the 'give credit for how far they've come' line of thought. Makes more sense to me than an 'all or nothing' type judgement.

[Riverwind]

If that's your view of the Olympics, so be it; but it has nothing to do with China then. So instead of saying that China has nothing to be proud of because they hosted an impressive Olympic Game, making it sound personal, you really are saying that in your mind no nation should be proud of having done it because there's nothing to be proud of in your mind.

Pretty much.

But as I pointed out, the attempts by the students in Tianenman Square got no support from the rest of the world. I don't see it as an easy road, but then my nation has struggled to right wrongs too.

Those of us in the west can't stop the Chinese government from mowing down its own citizens. That kind of change has to come from within. Incidently, the Chinese government has succeeded in hiding that knownledge from a generation of kids who know nothing of it: http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/i...06?feedType=RSS

Hong Kong's South China Morning Post said a young woman on the Chengdu Evening News classified section had allowed the ad to be published because she'd never heard of the June 4 crackdown.

Change will never happen as long as the government is allowed to keep its citizens ignorant. On that measure China is regressing not progressing. To praise someone for making progress one has to find evidence of progress. The olympics could have been evidence of progress, however, the regime renaged on all of the promises it made when it was awarded the olympics.

[Wilber]

Ever been to China Riverwind? Just curious.

[Riverwind]

Ever been to China Riverwind? Just curious.

Your point being? That a lot has changed in the 20 years since I have been there? I know that. But the question is whether we should view a multi-billion yuan exercise in nationalist propoganda as a good thing. The communist leaders in Beijing wanted the olympics so they could justify their own rule to the Chinese people. The autocrats would never have staged the olympics at all if they really thought it would lead to more openess and the ultimate loss of power for the communist party. Edited August 28, 2008 by Riverwind

[Wilber]

Your point being? That a lot has changed in the 20 years since I have been there? I know that. But the question is whether we should view a multi-billion yuan exercise in nationalist propoganda as a good thing. The communist leaders in Beijing wanted the olympics so they could justify their own rule to the Chinese people. The autocrats would never have staged the olympics at all if they really thought it would lead to more openess and the ultimate loss of power for the communist party.

Ya, a lot has changed, you should go see sometime.

[Guest American Woman]

Those of us in the west can't stop the Chinese government from mowing down its own citizens. That kind of change has to come from within.

Just curious if you felt that way about ousting Saddam, too.

Incidently, the Chinese government has succeeded in hiding that knownledge from a generation of kids who know nothing of it: http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/i...06?feedType=RSS

I don't think an entire generation of kids doesn't know about Tiananman. We have plenty of ignorant kids in our nations, too; that doesn't mean they speak for their entire generation. I'm guessing kids use the internet in China too.

Change will never happen as long as the government is allowed to keep its citizens ignorant.

So you don't think those of us in the west can help the Chinese on their quest for democracy, yet you think change will never happen as long as the government is "allowed" to keep its citizens ignorant. So who do you propose should stop the government from keeping them ignorant?

On that measure China is regressing not progressing.

You'll have to show some proof of that, because I'm not buying it.

To praise someone for making progress one has to find evidence of progress. The olympics could have been evidence of progress, however, the regime renaged on all of the promises it made when it was awarded the olympics.

"All" the promises? Again, I'd like some proof of that.

Here's the thing. The Chinese people were exposed to people from all over the world. That has to be a good thing in itself. But you keep making this about the government, as if the people themselves aren't making any progress.

I think you don't see any change because you refuse to even consider the fact that there has been change. It sounds to me as if you have your mind made up about China and it also sounds as if you refuse to see the people and the government as two different things. Because Wilbur is right; a lot has changed.

But regarding how you feel about the Olympics-- it seems pretty close-minded and 'me oriented' not to be able to recognize that it could mean a lot to the Chinese people even though it means nothing to you.