Henry Morgentaler Given Honour?

MontyBurns · July 6, 2008

The challenge is simple: show us the case that a fertilized embryo should be granted full human rights at the cost of downgrading the rights of pregnant women, and we can debate it from there! Continued hysterical assertions that it's a baby, don't count!

Ok. You do not think that a 9 month fetus the day before delivery should be classified as a human baby? The fetus can survive on it's own at this point anyway. If it isn't a baby what in the world is it then? :huh:

g_bambino · July 6, 2008

Just goes to show the contradiction:
human baby = garbage

AND

baby seals/owls/tree in BC = cause worth dying for

Make sense? You tree-huggers need a dose of good-old fashioned conservatism. Make men out of you yet.

That didn't address what I said at all.

g_bambino · July 6, 2008

Ok. You do not think that a 9 month fetus the day before delivery should be classified as a human baby? The fetus can survive on it's own at this point anyway. If it isn't a baby what in the world is it then?

He said an embryo, not a fetus.

CANADIEN · July 6, 2008

The sweet dear of a healer said one thing that I remember during an interview that "Unwanted children become concentration camp guards" - Yes folks the old man boardering on being a lunitic actually said that! So - what does that statement mean and what is the sub-text of such a remark? Plus what motivates the character in this play called life in Canada?
To me I translate this line as meaning that he was on some sort of illusional mission to protect future generations of Jews from ever being holocausted again - by simply doing a pre-emtive strike agains those that he thought may land on the planet and become blonde blue eyed Nazi fanatics out to get rid of the brown eyed semites..this is bizarre and is most definitely a mislead notion - mislead by a hyper vigilance that has lost all sense of logic.

Asians do not abort - blacks for the most part do not - Jews do not - Muslims do not and so on - the only ones that are victim to this duping and subtle genocide are the remnants of the old secularized Christians..the white trashers and the now disoliving middle class...Henry Morgantaler made sure that any one that was remotely Anglo Saxon (Germanic) was aborted and denied life - this old man is resonsible for the killing of millions - so man that we had to import immigrants to sustain the nation - he is not to be honoured he is a lunitic. ORDER OF CANADA ? no!

The worst part is that the Chief Justice of Canada and her masculine man hating registrar pushed for the Order for the Doctor - feminist eccentrics out of the 70's and this abortion provider should fell shame and not honour for the human wealth and resourse that was sqandered under the guise of female freedom and rights - this is not a "provider" of wealth - this is an impovrisher!

As someone who is opposed to abortions, I have huge problems with Morgentaler getting the Order of Canada. But your racist overtone is something else. Your statement about Morgentaler targeting Anglo-Saxons has no basis in logic or facts, and both you and I know it.

WIP · July 7, 2008

Ok. You do not think that a 9 month fetus the day before delivery should be classified as a human baby? The fetus can survive on it's own at this point anyway. If it isn't a baby what in the world is it then?

Yes, I do think a 36 week fetus that's about ready to drop, is a baby, and so do most provincial courts that restrict late-term abortion to medical reasons such as the health of the mother -- but that's not what you're talking about, otherwise you wouldn't be all in a lather about Henry Morgenthaler!

MontyBurns · July 7, 2008

As someone who is opposed to abortions, I have huge problems with Morgentaler getting the Order of Canada.

Giving Morgentaler an Order of Canada is like giving the hangman a medal. There is instinctively something deeply sick about it. I really wonder about his supporters sometimes.

White Doors · July 7, 2008

A fetus is NOT an "unborn human". It is an appendage of the woman's body. That is the medical definition and the legal one.
And yes if the goal of sex is only for procreation, then masturbation, and other forms of birth control fall into the same sick thinking.

???

A fetus is NOT an unborn human? If that is true, tell me of one instance in which a human was never a fetus!

Drea · July 7, 2008

They are sick women anyway. A bunch of lesbians who dictate to everybody how all family policy is to be. But these women generally don't have kids or marry (marry men anyway). As I said sick.

Only "sick" women don't want children in your mind? What about the men in the world that never married and had children, are they "sick" too? Or do you hate women so much that they are useless except as breeding sows?

If these women don't have children anyway, doesn't that make you happy -- that they are not breeding future feminists? LOL

Are you married? Do you have any daughters?

Does your wife or daughter drive? Then she is a feminist.

Does she vote? Then she is a feminist.

Does she work outside the home? (doubtful in your case) Then she is a feminist.

You have no clue what a feminist is... the word "feminist" is not synonymous with "lesbian".

Monty, you seem to have a problem with women choosing what happens to their bodies..... I wonder why that is... do you have a deep seated fear of strong, decisive women?

Again, have you ever fostered or adopted a child? Have you ever supported a single mother in raising and educating the child that the pro-life do-gooders forced upon her?

If not, then you have not a leg to stand on in this debate. You only care about the fetus until it is born, then it and it's mother are considered a useless wastes of skin sucking off the welfare system.

Anti-choice folks don't give 2 shits about the mother and child. Just the fetus. That is moral ignorance at it's utter finest.

WIP · July 7, 2008

Only "sick" women don't want children in your mind? What about the men in the world that never married and had children, are they "sick" too? Or do you hate women so much that they are useless except as breeding sows?
If these women don't have children anyway, doesn't that make you happy -- that they are not breeding future feminists? LOL

Are you married? Do you have any daughters?

Does your wife or daughter drive? Then she is a feminist.

Does she vote? Then she is a feminist.

Does she work outside the home? (doubtful in your case) Then she is a feminist.

You have no clue what a feminist is... the word "feminist" is not synonymous with "lesbian".

Monty, you seem to have a problem with women choosing what happens to their bodies..... I wonder why that is... do you have a deep seated fear of strong, decisive women?

Of course he has a problem with women making these decisions! Pro-choice doesn't order women to go out and have abortions (unless they live in China), it's an individual right; whereas prolife means the state is going to force pregnant women to have the babies regardless of the circumstances or their own desires. If you favour individual rights over group conformity, then you can't be prolife!

Again, have you ever fostered or adopted a child? Have you ever supported a single mother in raising and educating the child that the pro-life do-gooders forced upon her?
If not, then you have not a leg to stand on in this debate. You only care about the fetus until it is born, then it and it's mother are considered a useless wastes of skin sucking off the welfare system.

Anti-choice folks don't give 2 shits about the mother and child. Just the fetus. That is moral ignorance at it's utter finest.

The blame-shifting rant about lesbians controlling family policy betrays the hidden motivation that draws so many men into the issue -- an evolutionary psychologist could best describe the many male politicians and religious leaders you see who focus in on the abortion issue, as acting like typical high-status male primates, that try to control where, when and how the females belonging to his group reproduce. That's the only way you can explain why they also show no concern for human life after it's left the womb!

MontyBurns · July 8, 2008

Only "sick" women don't want children in your mind? What about the men in the world that never married and had children, are they "sick" too? Or do you hate women so much that they are useless except as breeding sows?
If these women don't have children anyway, doesn't that make you happy -- that they are not breeding future feminists? LOL

Are you married? Do you have any daughters?

Does your wife or daughter drive? Then she is a feminist.

Does she vote? Then she is a feminist.

Does she work outside the home? (doubtful in your case) Then she is a feminist.

You have no clue what a feminist is... the word "feminist" is not synonymous with "lesbian".

Monty, you seem to have a problem with women choosing what happens to their bodies..... I wonder why that is... do you have a deep seated fear of strong, decisive women?

Again, have you ever fostered or adopted a child? Have you ever supported a single mother in raising and educating the child that the pro-life do-gooders forced upon her?

If not, then you have not a leg to stand on in this debate. You only care about the fetus until it is born, then it and it's mother are considered a useless wastes of skin sucking off the welfare system.

Anti-choice folks don't give 2 shits about the mother and child. Just the fetus. That is moral ignorance at it's utter finest.

You don't believe in human rights according to your reasoning. A fetus IS human with NO rights. A dedicated leftist like myself believes in human rights for all(not just a select group). This is another battle in the war for human rights. Maybe someday enough people will be progressive and tackle this final frontier in the war for human rights.

As for the feminists, they really should join the fight for human rights for babies. Also, their anti-male talk does nothing to promote equality amongst Canadians.

Thats what we are about as Canadians, Human Rights and Equality, isn't it? :lol:

MontyBurns · July 8, 2008

If you favour individual rights over group conformity, then you can't be prolife!

Individual rights for the baby is pro-life. Is it not?

I'm starting to wonder about you deniers of human rights. :huh: Human rights seems to be only for those you approve of. Me, I would like to see human rights become more inclusive. We can't be defenders of human rights when we slaughter the unborn, now can we?

g_bambino · July 8, 2008

Individual rights for the baby...
We can't be defenders of human rights when we slaughter the unborn...

A fetus IS human...

human rights for babies...

Perhaps you could do a favour to this discussion and be clear on what you're talking about. Babies, fetuses, and embryos are not the same thing. So, please explain which of these three phases of development you would like human rights to apply at.

Black Dog · July 8, 2008

They are sick women anyway. A bunch of lesbians who dictate to everybody how all family policy is to be. But these women generally don't have kids or marry (marry men anyway). As I said sick.

This thread delivers! :lol:

Kudos to Morgentaler for his O.C. nod and for his continued fight for the rights of women. Abortion is as much a fact of life as birth itself: making it illegal and punishing women seeking to control their reproductive destiny won't make it go away. Better to have it as a legal and safe option.

Black Dog · July 8, 2008

Oh and just to clear something up:

The sweet dear of a healer said one thing that I remember during an interview that "Unwanted children become concentration camp guards" - Yes folks the old man boardering on being a lunitic actually said that! So - what does that statement mean and what is the sub-text of such a remark? Plus what motivates the character in this play called life in Canada?

The actual quote I think the op is referring to is this

"Well-loved children grow into adults who do not build concentration camps, do not rape and do not murder."

I think the meaning is a wee bit different, wouldn't you say?

capricorn · July 8, 2008

Thats what we are about as Canadians, Human Rights and Equality, isn't it?

Monty you should know by now that not all Canadians have human rights or are equal. We have women's rights but do we have men's rights? We have minority rights but do we have rights for whites? We have rights for the gay community but do we have rights for heterosexuals? I learned a long time ago that human rights and equality are reserved for select groups, and those are the ones that are fought for most vociferously. I am strait and white, and older to boot, therefore I have been marginalized. In other words I went from the mainstream to the margin. Where is this "inclusive and tolerant society" that is so widely preached?

MontyBurns · July 8, 2008

Perhaps you could do a favour to this discussion and be clear on what you're talking about. Babies, fetuses, and embryos are not the same thing. So, please explain which of these three phases of development you would like human rights to apply at.

OK.

Babies, fetuses and embryos are all human. Prior to being born they have no rights. If we are to call ourselves defenders of human rights shouldn't we be defending the human rights of the unborn?

I could ask you the reverse:

Babies, fetuses and embryos are all human, so at which stages of development should the being's rights be denied?

Drea · July 8, 2008

You don't believe in human rights according to your reasoning. A fetus IS human with NO rights. A dedicated leftist like myself believes in human rights for all(not just a select group). This is another battle in the war for human rights. Maybe someday enough people will be progressive and tackle this final frontier in the war for human rights.
As for the feminists, they really should join the fight for human rights for babies. Also, their anti-male talk does nothing to promote equality amongst Canadians.

Thats what we are about as Canadians, Human Rights and Equality, isn't it?

An egg is not a chicken until it hatches. A baby is not a human until it is born. See how easy the concept is?

Pro-choice does not force women to abort. (thanks WIP) Anti-choice forces women to give birth.

One forces it's agenda... one does not. A coworker is pregnant with her second child, yet she remains pro-choice. She has chosen to have this child. She got pregnant shortly after the birth of her first and chose to abort it.

And Monty, If you are left-leaning... I will eat my nice new monitor. LOL

The only men who see feminists as "anti-men" are those who wish women were still "controllable". LOL

Feminists love men that love and respect women for all that they are... not just for what they can do for them.

Now get in that damn kitchen man! There's dishes to be done and food to be prepared... get on it... hurry up, times a wastin'!

Edited July 8, 2008 by Drea

MontyBurns · July 8, 2008

Monty you should know by now that not all Canadians have human rights or are equal. We have women's rights but do we have men's rights? We have minority rights but do we have rights for whites? We have rights for the gay community but do we have rights for heterosexuals? I learned a long time ago that human rights and equality are reserved for select groups, and those are the ones that are fought for most vociferously. I am strait and white, and older to boot, therefore I have been marginalized. In other words I went from the mainstream to the margin. Where is this "inclusive and tolerant society" that is so widely preached?

I agree with you 100%. This "inclusive and tolerant society" only applies to certain "special" groups. And that is wrong.

MontyBurns · July 8, 2008

A baby is not a human until it is born.

Look at what you are saying here. A baby IS a human. An egg IS a chicken.

If a baby isn't a human then what species does it belong to then?

g_bambino · July 8, 2008

Babies, fetuses and embryos are all human. Prior to being born they have no rights. If we are to call ourselves defenders of human rights shouldn't we be defending the human rights of the unborn?

Firstly, human embryos, fetuses, and babies are human. Secondly, you didn't oblige my request: please explain at which of these stages of development you feel human rights should begin to apply. In fact, let me widen the scope for you: Should human rights first apply at: a) the creation of a sperm cell in a man's testicles, conception, c) the embryonic stage, d) the fetal stage, e) the pre-natal stage, or d) birth.

Edited July 8, 2008 by g_bambino

Drea · July 8, 2008

Look at what you are saying here. A baby IS a human. An egg IS a chicken.
If a baby isn't a human then what species does it belong to then?

And I call my cat Mr. Bunny.... he's still a cat!

Hey man this is PMS week for me... I must've killed MY EGG! OMG somebody help me! Somebody arrest me! I've killed an egg for godsake! I didn't mean to... but I seem to kill an egg every single month...for like 30 some odd years... that's (35x12) WOW I've KILLED 420 EGGS IN MY LIFETIME SO FAR!

OR (cue twightlight zone music)... I might just have the awesome, scary female "mysterious" ability to climb right through the internets -- so watch out! LOL I am a killer after all... booga booga.

Oleg Bach · July 8, 2008

And I call my cat Mr. Bunny.... he's still a cat!
Hey man this is PMS week for me... I must've killed MY EGG! OMG somebody help me! Somebody arrest me! I've killed an egg for godsake! I didn't mean to... but I seem to kill an egg every single month...for like 30 some odd years... that's (35x12) WOW I've KILLED 420 EGGS IN MY LIFETIME SO FAR!

OR (cue twightlight zone music)... I might just have the awesome, scary female "mysterious" ability to climb right through the internets -- so watch out! LOL I am a killer after all... booga booga.

A monkey is a monkey - we are related genetically and similar in shape...I have never been a monkey nor have any of my ancestors... a cat fetus is a cat and a human fetus is a human - and Henry the great abortion provider is a genocidal lunitic...I could see if he saved a million lives that now thrive and contribute to society...THEN I could under stand giving him honour...BUT he is responsible for removing life not making it or supporting it...so put it this way death is death and life is life and he is a death provider not a life creator..so screw him and all those that are to stupid to know the difference between life and death and all those that are morally in nuntrel.

Oleg Bach · July 8, 2008

The rights of the living human being come before the rights of the fetus. Simple.
You have a right, Monty. A right to adopt one of those children that wasn't aborted. Have you done your part? Have you raised a child that would have otherwise been aborted? If you don't allow a woman to abort then you should be financially responsible for your decision.

I would like to get the names of all those who decry abortion and find out if they have ever fostered or adopted a child. Somehow I doubt if there are more than two people (probably none) in all of Canada who have actually stepped up to the plate and adopted a child that would've otherwise been aborted. Or taken care of the woman and her child after they forced her from the abortion clinic.

If you don't like abortion don't have one. Again, simple.

I repeat again - Henry thought he was killing potential Nazis - that makes him crazy---if our greatest honour is to be given to the insane - so be it...I want no part of it.

MontyBurns · July 8, 2008

OR (cue twightlight zone music)... I might just have the awesome, scary female "mysterious" ability to climb right through the internets -- so watch out! LOL I am a killer after all... booga booga.

OK. I will stop posting on this topic now.

I'm afraid.

Please don't kill me. I'm just trying to have a discussion.

Riverwind · July 8, 2008

What gets lost in this debate is the fact that we accept killing of human beings in a number of circumstances including self-defence and acts of war. In some cases, the killing is acceptable even if the victims are 'innocents'. What is acceptable depends on the circumstances. For that reason, insisting that a fetus is human does not automatically mean that it cannot be killed. It is up to society to decide whether killing it is justified just like society has to decide when killing in self defence is justified. The overwhelming majority of people in the country choose to believe that killing a fetus during the first two trimesters is perfectly acceptable and that is not likely to change any time soon. In other words, this is moral/religious choice where the only practical option to allow individuals to make their own choices. If you think abortion is immoral the don't have one.

Edited July 8, 2008 by Riverwind