The Apology Pt II

[eyeball]

A good method for the eradication of poverty in Canada is called a job. If you need more skills then aquire them. There are many programs and systems of grants in place already to do exactly this.

Or is the contention that people who do not wish to work or better themselves should be entitled to a better life anyway? Personally I disagree. If someone is not willing to do what it takes to improve their lot in life then they deserve exactly what they get.

Sometimes individuals are unable to improve their lot in life when they've suffered something they didn't deserve no matter how hard they try. In families the dysfunction caused by pain and abuse can span generations and it can in fact completely destroy them. There are similarities in the power structures that exist between a parent and it's children, a church and its flock or a government and it's peoples. These are enough alike that it stands to reason there will be a lot of similarity in the outcome when the power in these relationships is abused. Like individuals who suffer painful abuse it seems entire cultures may no matter how hard they try also be unable to improve their lot in life when they've suffered something they didn't deserve. Its not like this hasn't happened in other places around the world and going almost as far back as history can be traced. Literally millions of individual Canadian natives may be suffering from a type of stress disorder stemming from the abuse their culture has suffered. We have to allow for the possibility this will take generations to overcome and we may need to maintain a permanent menu of programs and systems of grants. We even have to allow for the possibility it will never be overcome. The relationship between human individuals and cultures in the New World could be dysfunctional for thousands of years to come if we're not careful.

The term cultural-genocide brings to mind the term inter-generational theft. I'm willing to cut huge numbers of native people a great amount of slack when it comes to improving "their lot in life" because it might be a hell of a lot harder than it looks. I think we owe the future better than what we in the present inherited from the cretins who came before us. There's no excuse for not having done unto others what we'd have others do unto us. Our culture has known better than this for at least 1300 years or more. Like I said in the last thread, what would what's-his-name do?

[M.Dancer]

Yeah bad things happened to my anscestors, my grandparents, parents .....can I have 300k, maybe 600k...hell, why not 1 million.... or is compensation for things that happened in the past only open to certain races conditioned to living on hand outs?

When will we recognize that when you instill welfare as a societal norm, you are commitiing cultural castration.

[CANADIEN]

Sometimes individuals are unable to improve their lot in life when they've suffered something they didn't deserve no matter how hard they try. In families the dysfunction caused by pain and abuse can span generations and it can in fact completely destroy them. There are similarities in the power structures that exist between a parent and it's children, a church and its flock or a government and it's peoples. These are enough alike that it stands to reason there will be a lot of similarity in the outcome when the power in these relationships is abused. Like individuals who suffer painful abuse it seems entire cultures may no matter how hard they try also be unable to improve their lot in life when they've suffered something they didn't deserve. Its not like this hasn't happened in other places around the world and going almost as far back as history can be traced. Literally millions of individual Canadian natives may be suffering from a type of stress disorder stemming from the abuse their culture has suffered. We have to allow for the possibility this will take generations to overcome and we may need to maintain a permanent menu of programs and systems of grants. We even have to allow for the possibility it will never be overcome. The relationship between human individuals and cultures in the New World could be dysfunctional for thousands of years to come if we're not careful.

The term cultural-genocide brings to mind the term inter-generational theft. I'm willing to cut huge numbers of native people a great amount of slack when it comes to improving "their lot in life" because it might be a hell of a lot harder than it looks. I think we owe the future better than what we in the present inherited from the cretins who came before us. There's no excuse for not having done unto others what we'd have others do unto us. Our culture has known better than this for at least 1300 years or more. Like I said in the last thread, what would what's-his-name do?

Hear hear

[eyeball]

Yeah bad things happened to my anscestors, my grandparents, parents .....can I have 300k, maybe 600k...hell, why not 1 million.... or is compensation for things that happened in the past only open to certain races conditioned to living on hand outs?

When will we recognize that when you instill welfare as a societal norm, you are commitiing cultural castration.

In lieu of welfare we could give vast swaths of land and soverignty over them back to native people. Re-attachment to the land seems to be one of the most important factors affecting the self-esteem and self-improvement of many dispossesd people throughout human history. Like Israel for example.

In the meantime there's nothing stopping anyone from developing a more worldly outlook and try a new approach. I like the way Earthling rolls off the tongue, you should try it sometime.

[M.Dancer]

In lieu of welfare we could give vast swaths of land and soverignty over them back to native people. Re-attachment to the land seems to be one of the most important factors affecting the self-esteem and self-improvement of many dispossesd people throughout human history. Like Israel for example.

In the meantime there's nothing stopping anyone from developing a more worldly outlook and try a new approach. I like the way Earthling rolls off the tongue, you should try it sometime.

Well since many tribes and "nations" have overlapping land claims you want to let them fight and starve like thegood old days? Raiding for women, fighting for hunting grounds. While eating the liver of your enemy might be good for theself esteem for some, isn't that taking the traditional lifestyle a little too far?

[capricorn]

In lieu of welfare we could give vast swaths of land and soverignty over them back to native people.

Surely there is enough vacant land in Canada to set aside an area about the size of Manitoba, declare it First Nations territory and give them complete independence. All First Nations reserves would be shut down (I hear most of them are crappy anyway) and the inhabitants moved at taxpayers' expense to their new domain. Same with off-reserve FNs who want to relocate to the new land of opportunity. We could even provide a few billion dollars to their democratically elected government to get them started. It's been done before....Nunavut comes to mind.

No more land claims, no more Dept. of Indian Affairs, no more blockades, no more apologies, etc., etc. etc.

I'd go for that. Heck, everything else we've tried so far has failed.

[sharkman]

The thing is, they don't want the vacant land, they want the land presently populated by Canada. Their treaty claims are beyond silly and not realistic. That's because the lawyers have gotten involved, and asking for jaw dropping settlements is a way of life for them.

[CANADIEN]

Surely there is enough vacant land in Canada to set aside an area about the size of Manitoba, declare it First Nations territory and give them complete independence. All First Nations reserves would be shut down (I hear most of them are crappy anyway) and the inhabitants moved at taxpayers' expense to their new domain. Same with off-reserve FNs who want to relocate to the new land of opportunity. We could even provide a few billion dollars to their democratically elected government to get them started. It's been done before....Nunavut comes to mind.

No more land claims, no more Dept. of Indian Affairs, no more blockades, no more apologies, etc., etc. etc.

I'd go for that. Heck, everything else we've tried so far has failed.

Nunavut was on the ancestral land of one nation, the Inuit. What you propose is lumping all First Nations together. Not the same, and not workable.

[jbg]

Harper did a great job in delivering a heartfelt apology. Giving credit to Layton for his contribution to the process was something I did not expect. Good on Harper. It was refreshing to see all the political parties on the same page for once. Chief Fontaine's address was also memorable. It was a day of high emotion and it taught a lot to Canadians who were unaware of the existence of residential schools and the despicable government policy from which they flowed.

I believe strongly in political systems where parties compete, but also acknowledge the good in other parties. Bill Clinton said it best at the dedication of his Presidential Library (link):

"America has two great dominant strands of political thought. We're represented up here on this stage: conservatism, which at its very best draws lines that should not be crossed; and progressivism, which at its very best breaks down barriers that are no longer needed or should never have been erected in the first place.''

I expect Harper to speak and act in that tradition; to simply govern well, for all the people, without being an ideologue.

[AngusThermopyle]

what would what's-his-name do?

Who? Chuck Norris?

It's been done before....Nunavut comes to mind.

Nunavut is hardly what I would call a stirring success story, in fact it's quite the opposite. The majority of the people are government employee's and don't actually produce anything. This is one of the reasons they are facing large budget shortfalls and are demanding that the Federal government make up the difference.

Unless you consider non viable states to be success stories that is.

Edited June 18, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[jbg]

Nunavut is hardly what I would call a stirring success story, in fact it's quite the opposite. The majority of the people are government employee's and don't actually produce anything. This is one of the reasons they are facing large budget shortfalls and are demanding that the Federal government make up the difference.

Unless you consider non viable states to be success stories that is.

The question is, aside from traditional hunting/gathering what would appropriate economic activities in Nunavut (or for that matter the former Franklin and Keewatin Districts)?

[AngusThermopyle]

The question is, aside from traditional hunting/gathering what would appropriate economic activities in Nunavut (or for that matter the former Franklin and Keewatin Districts)?

You're right, that is the question, the big one.

If I recall correctly they discovered substantial diamond deposits in Nunavut but the companies that discovered them and wanted to develop them pulled out. As I remember the demands being made were too unreasonable and in effect the companies would have been expending their resources for a very minimal return. In effect they would have been more like empoyee's of Nunavut and be paid a triffling amount in comparison to what they expected to produce.

That could have made a 100% difference if not for unreasonable demands being made upon these companies. Nunavut certainly would not be in a situation now where they have to demand more from the Feds.

[CANADIEN]

The thing is, they don't want the vacant land, they want the land presently populated by Canada. Their treaty claims are beyond silly and not realistic. That's because the lawyers have gotten involved, and asking for jaw dropping settlements is a way of life for them.

So, theyre not part of Canada?

A land claim is essentially a statement by a given First Nation that either there has been no treaty regarding the land the have traditonnally occupied or that the Crown has not fulfilled commitments they made when signing a treaty. They want the recognition of something that never ceased to be theirs, a title to their land.

As per the Royal Proclamation of 1763, First Nations' title to land they have traditionnally occupied exist as long as it is not formally surrendered to the Crown. Their may be other rights, such as the right to continue fishing and hunting, which exist even after title has been surrendered, because they were recognized by treaty.

A lot has been said about misinterpretation such as "the total area convered by claims in BC is larger than the province itself". Such statements fail to recognize a simple fact: there are rival claims in some areas.

It is doubtful that recognition of Indian claims will lead to nightmare scenarios such as the country going bankrupt or 30 million plus non-Aboriginal Canadian being served legally enforceable eviction notices. That being said, sensotionalism by both sides and their lawyers (or by people praying on fears or prejudice) does not help.

A just resolution of these claims necessitate:

- a fair, non-confrontational, independent negotiation and adjudication mechanism, agreed upon by both parties (the current and recent federal governments have tried to unilaterally set the rules, therefore acting as judge and party)

- recognition that settlements must respect the interests of the First Nations, the Crown and the whole population.

Edited June 18, 2008 by CANADIEN

[charter.rights]

So, theyre not part of Canada?

A land claim is essentially a statement by a given First Nation that either there has been no treaty regarding the land the have traditonnally occupied or that the Crown has not fulfilled commitments they made when signing a treaty. They want the recognition of something that never ceased to be theirs, a title to their land.

As per the Royal Proclamation of 1763, First Nations' title to land they have traditionnally occupied exist as long as it is not formally surrendered to the Crown. Their may be other rights, such as the right to continue fishing and hunting, which exist even after title has been surrendered, because they were recognized by treaty.

A lot has been said about misinterpretation such as "the total area convered by claims in BC is larger than the province itself". Such statements fail to recognize a simple fact: there are rival claims in some areas.

It is doubtful that recognition of Indian claims will lead to nightmare scenarios such as the country going bankrupt or 30 million plus non-Aboriginal Canadian being served legally enforceable eviction notices. That being said, sensotionalism by both sides and their lawyers (or by people praying on fears or prejudice) does not help.

A just resolution of these claims necessitate:

- a fair, non-confrontational, independent negotiation and adjudication mechanism, agreed upon by both parties (the current and recent federal governments have tried to unilaterally set the rules, therefore acting as judge and party)

- recognition that settlements must respect the interests of the First Nations, the Crown and the whole population.

Even if there are competing interests in BC, that is not the concern of the Canadian government. Rather we have to recognize and mitigate the facts that we have no right to lands that were never ceded. Once we lay off those claims then I'm sure that the competing nations can figure it out for themselves what territory they need for their own autonomy.

[eyeball]

Well since many tribes and "nations" have overlapping land claims you want to let them fight and starve like thegood old days? Raiding for women, fighting for hunting grounds. While eating the liver of your enemy might be good for theself esteem for some, isn't that taking the traditional lifestyle a little too far?

I actually think thats what you want native people to do. I think many white people actually do hope that natives will act in some way that justify's the governments continuing suppression of their culture. I bet this sort of thing also happens in other countries too. I'm reminded of the idiom give someone enough rope to hang themselves...What do you think?

The point is some things change. Native whaler's of the Macah tribe for example used a 50 caliber gun instead of a harpoon to kill a gray whale this past year, without authority I might add. Instead of shaving their heads and turning them into slaves for hunting without the chiefs approval, as was the custom in the past, Macah authourities put them in jail.

OTOH some things never change. Whites of all types can hold onto some funny assumptions. Your assumptions about a native predisposition towards savagery reminds me of the dissapointment that some people feel when they naively discover that instead of Es-O-Wista meaning something peaceful and benign like By-the-Sea it actually means Clubbed-to-Death.

[M.Dancer]

I actually think thats what you want native people to do. I think many white people actually do hope that natives will act in some way that justify's the governments continuing suppression of their culture.

Given the way that Mohawks and other warrior gangsters compete for control.....a belt full of scalps is not beyond the imagination...

[eyeball]

Given the way that Mohawks and other warrior gangsters compete for control.....a belt full of scalps is not beyond the imagination...

Oooohhh...the fear card... A fear of gangsters is required by the enforcement industrial complex to justify the existence of police, jails and prosecuters and so on and so forth. How will political parties ever be able to boost their image if they can't periodically be seen to be crackin' down and gettin' tough? What would people do if there wasn't something handy to galvanize them with? Think for themselves perhaps?

Indians are required by the DIAND to justify their welfare indiustrial complex and...on and on it goes.

"If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?!"

Edited June 18, 2008 by eyeball

[M.Dancer]

Oooohhh...the fear card... A fear of gangsters is required by the enforcement industrial complex to justify the existence of police, jails and prosecuters and so on and so forth. How will political parties ever be able to boost their image if they can't periodically be seen to be crackin' down and gettin' tough? What would people do if there wasn't something handy to galvanize them with? Think for themselves perhaps?

Indians are required by the DIAND to justify their welfare indiustrial complex and...on and on it goes.

You smoking something again? No one wants to justify the welfare except the receipiants.

[charter.rights]

You smoking something again? No one wants to justify the welfare except the receipiants.

Do you really think that people are taking welfare in communities where the average income is about $100g's? In most Mohawk communities the tobacco industry has spun off into the community and very few remain on social assistance. But since Mohawks don't participate in the census it is unlikely you would know that. Being ignorant of native issues is pretty much your point of view.

[eyeball]

In the meantime...

The apology is but one step, a big one but still just one along a very long path. I would advise everyone to bring a good pair of hiking boots.

[M.Dancer]

Do you really think that people are taking welfare in communities where the average income is about $100g's? In most Mohawk communities the tobacco industry has spun off into the community and very few remain on social assistance. But since Mohawks don't participate in the census it is unlikely you would know that. Being ignorant of native issues is pretty much your point of view.

So Mohawks ( who don't participate in the census so how you know these things....) are indictaive of natives everywhere? Are all Mohawks smuggling tobacco or can any Mohawk do it without fear of a bullet to the head?

I guess making up stuff about native issues is pretty much your kit and kaboodle

Edited June 18, 2008 by M.Dancer

[charter.rights]

So Mohawks ( who don't participate in the census so how you know these things....) are indictaive of natives everywhere? Are all Mohawks smuggling tobacco or can any Mohawk do it without fear of a bullet to the head?

I guess making up stuff about native issues is pretty much your kit and kaboodle

Nah. You're making up dumb questions just to satisfy-your wet puppy superior attitude myth.

The tobacco industry is a ma and pop operation in almost every native community engaging it. There are no gangs or organized crimes. That is another lie the RCMP and the OPP tell us just to justify illegal search and seizures.

In all the communities that I deal with, the scuttlebutt is that no one participates in the census. That would appear to be the case since there is very little accurate information that comes from southern Ontario stats. I have a direct line to many native people, including community leaders like Shawn Brant, the Chiefs and Council and the band administration, as well as many native business leaders. Its part of my job to liaise with them. We all make money together and those $500g clients involved in the tobacco trade are looking for ways to put their money into other long-term business ventures. Those earning less that $100g's are living the good life with new homes, new vehicles and the finest in family toys. Everyone shares in the bounty and it is improving the overall economic development of the region.

BTW. For more information (to correct that ignorant limp you walk with) making cigarettes, and selling tobacco products is not illegal in at least most of the larger communities I deal with. The band councils have written laws that authorizes the sale and manufacture of cigarettes. Selling those cigarettes and all other goods on reserves without taxes has also been written into law by the Mohawk councils. So I guess I spoiled another myth you have been holding on to. Sorry but sometimes I find it important to respond to people like you in the hope of helping them become less of an asshole. However, I understand that it isn't quite effective in your case.

[M.Dancer]

Nah. You're making up dumb questions just to satisfy-your wet puppy superior attitude myth.

The tobacco industry is a ma and pop operation in almost every native community engaging it. There are no gangs or organized crimes. That is another lie the RCMP and the OPP tell us just to justify illegal search and seizures.

In all the communities that I deal with, the scuttlebutt is that no one participates in the census. That would appear to be the case since there is very little accurate information that comes from southern Ontario stats. I have a direct line to many native people, including community leaders like Shawn Brant, the Chiefs and Council and the band administration, as well as many native business leaders. Its part of my job to liaise with them. We all make money together and those $500g clients involved in the tobacco trade are looking for ways to put their money into other long-term business ventures. Those earning less that $100g's are living the good life with new homes, new vehicles and the finest in family toys. Everyone shares in the bounty and it is improving the overall economic development of the region.

BTW. For more information (to correct that ignorant limp you walk with) making cigarettes, and selling tobacco products is not illegal in at least most of the larger communities I deal with. The band councils have written laws that authorizes the sale and manufacture of cigarettes. Selling those cigarettes and all other goods on reserves without taxes has also been written into law by the Mohawk councils. So I guess I spoiled another myth you have been holding on to. Sorry but sometimes I find it important to respond to people like you in the hope of helping them become less of an asshole. However, I understand that it isn't quite effective in your case.

I find it amusing that in one post you claim poverty is genocide and in another you claim that everyone is making 100k a year...and now there are no smugglers....I find alos amusing that with so much wealth in the mohawk communities....why are there so many welfare cases?

Your credibility is evaporating quickly...

[M.Dancer]

Do you really think that people are taking welfare in communities where the average income is about $100g's? In most Mohawk communities the tobacco industry has spun off into the community and very few remain on social assistance. But since Mohawks don't participate in the census it is unlikely you would know that. Being ignorant of native issues is pretty much your point of view.

Of course you know what you are talking about....most fiction writers do. Meanwhile Chief R. Don Maracle believes that 30 to 35% of the Tyendinega population live in poverty.

http://www.communitypress.ca/ArticleDispla...h=Bill+Tremblay

And of course your knowledge of the legal Mohawk tobacco industry is commedable if not hilarious.

The RCMP say they will be working with law enforcement agencies at all levels this summer in an attempt to curb the flow of illegal cigarettes crossing the Canada-U. S. border.

Details have been released in relation to a blitz that occurred at the beginning of the month leading to six arrests and the seizure of close to 2 million cigarettes and over 690 kilograms of fresh-cut tobacco

http://www.standard-freeholder.com/Article...DARD-FREEHOLDER

.

[charter.rights]

Of course you know what you are talking about....most fiction writers do. Meanwhile Chief R. Don Maracle believes that 30 to 35% of the Tyendinega population live in poverty.

http://www.communitypress.ca/ArticleDispla...h=Bill+Tremblay

And of course your knowledge of the legal Mohawk tobacco industry is commedable if not hilarious.

http://www.standard-freeholder.com/Article...DARD-FREEHOLDER

.

The majority of 30-40% are working poor. A number of cigarette sales owners earn in excess of $500,000 per year. In essence the average median wage is around $100k.

While there is lots of press on the RCMP doing seizures, it is all smoke and mirrors because there have been few convictions. At Akwesanse (I just left meetings there this morning) the RCMP think it is illegal to move cartons of cigarettes from St Regis (the US side of the Akwesasne Reserve) to the Quebec side or the Ontario side. But since there are no borders through Akwesasne neither the US or Canada have been successful in getting convictions. The Jay Treaty and the Mohawks position on Cornwall Island puts them on their own sovereign territory outside of Canada or the US.

The same goes with every other Mohawk Territory since Mohawks do not consider themselves Canadian, and there has never been an action or acceptance towards Canadian or American citizenship.

But spin away. As long as you keep telling yourself these myths, you'll continue to asshole-dom, that being the King of Asshole Land. You aren't there yet princess, but you sure are wallowing in it.