Mike Harris Chief of Staff to replace Brodie

[White Doors]

negative posters?

When was the past time you contributed positively to thos board margrace? I can't recall.

And since when is the fraser Institute ultra conservative?

lol

[jdobbin]

And since when is the fraser Institute ultra conservative?

It has been described that way many times by its supporters and it opponents.

http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/article/178010

It was a scene straight from old-guard-Toronto central casting: A private affair held by the Fraser Institute, the ultra-conservative policy think-tank, at an exclusive club. The Institute had recruited William Thorsell, Royal Ontario Museum president, to lecture on the renaissance of the city's cultural institutions and their need to stand on their own, away from the public purse.

[Wild Bill]

You must have the same educational abilities as Harris if this is all you can say in refuting my post.

Ad hominem, ad hominem. <yawn>

You misunderstand. It's like when you see an item at a yard sale and you prepare to dicker with the owner but he cites a price so ridiculously high that you don't bother with a counter offer. You just walk away.

After reading your arguments I find them so spiteful and contrived that getting involved in rebuttals seems a waste of time. If Harris discovered a cure for cancer I would expect you to claim that he was just gleefully putting doctors out of work!

The "DangerMouse2" label was a reference to another user who shows up in native american threads. Debate with him seems similarly futile, at least to me, for essentially the same reasons. The only difference is degree.

Don't be concerned. You have no need to care if I don't respond to your posts. There seem to be a lot of others who will play with you. I just have only so much spare time and I don't want to waste it. You probably find little value in my posts, since I don't always agree with you.

[M.Dancer]

Stomach-turning, callous, ignorant, racist filth.

And how remarkable that the dittoheads could read over this bit of filth, and only find margrace's post comment-worthy.

Intellectually challenged aboriginal man of colour....

Happy now?

[White Doors]

It has been described that way many times by its supporters and it opponents.

http://www.thestar.com/entertainment/article/178010

The star descibing the fraser institute as ultra conservative is like a midget calling a guy that's 5'8", tall.

Edited May 27, 2008 by White Doors

[M.Dancer]

After retiring from politics, he held or holds sinecures on the boards of at least several major corporations, including Magna (despite having no automotive parts expertise), Grey Island Systems International (despite having no telematics/transport experience), and Goodmans LLP (despite having no legal background). He is, incredibly, also a "Senior Research Fellow" at the Fraser Institute. (You know Harris -- renowned for his scholarship.) I suspect that only a select few readers are capable of the cognitive inability to detect the golden parachutes.

These are red herrings (or should I say fish of colour).

Board members are selected for a variety of reasons...lets look at some of magna's board.

Donald Resnick

Chairman of the Audit Committee

Chairman of the Health and Safety and Environmental Committee

Member of the Corporate Governance and Compensation Committee

Mr. Resnick, age 79, serves principally as a corporate director and has served on Magna's Board since February 25, 1982. In addition to serving on Magna's Board, Mr. Resnick previously served as a director of Consolidated Mercantile Inc. and Genterra Inc. Mr. Resnick was formerly a partner of Deloitte & Touche.

No automotive experiance there.....but he is an accountant.

Lady Barbara Thomas Judge

Lady Judge, age 60, is currently Chairman of the Board of the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority, which position she has held since July 2004, and on which she has been a member since September 2002. In addition, Lady Judge is currently the Deputy Chairman of the Financial Reporting Council (the UK regulatory authority for accounting and corporate governance) and Chairman of the School of Oriental & African Studies at London University. Lady Judge is also Deputy Chairman of Friends Provident plc and a non-executive director of Quintain Estates and Development plc and PA Consulting. Prior to these appointments, she founded and was Chairman of Private Equity Investor plc, a fund of funds listed on the London Stock Exchange, and was Executive Chairman of Whitworths plc. She was the first woman main board director of Samuel Montagu & Co., and News International, as well as head of international private banking at Bankers Trust. She was previously a Commissioner of the United States Securities and Exchange Commission from 1980 to 1983.

Nope...no automotive experiance either....but she is an investment banker

Harris brings to the table many qualities. Not surprisingly, being a former Premier gives someone a lot of experiance in one of the most important facets of a public company, Corporate Governance.

[M.Dancer]

I'm sure more than a few readers here have the knowledge of corporate governance to understand how weak your claims are.

It is in the best interest of an organization with a board of directors that the composition of the directors come from a cross-section of backgrounds and experiences.

As the head of the province with the largest economy in the country Harris has exactly the set of experiences that any set of rational shareholders looks for as part of the team that governs how their investment is managed.

I shouild have read your post before responding.....you are 100% correct.

[Michael Bluth]

read that Canada, America and Britain are the only countries in the world with specific education programs for business management. Everyone else prefers managers to come up from the ranks, preferably starting on the floor.

Where ever you read that is wildly off the mark. Gotta present facts that are remotely close to reality if you want any credibility

The Association to Advance Collegiate Schools of Business represents biz schools around the world.

They currently have member schools in over 30 countries. Including Canada, the US and the UK. Link

[Kitchener]

I shouild have read your post before responding.....you are 100% correct.

Yes, you should have read my post before responding. Thank you for acknowledging that I was indeed 100% correct to identify margrace's "American buddies" claim as the questionable component, and moreover to challenge the naysayers to explain their beef.

I accept your apology for your previous ill-conceived post.

[Argus]

Please confirm that you have reported this exchange, so that I don't needlessly report it as well.

I was wrong not to report it when a handful of posters got wet palms and tight pants at the idea of brutalizing a lesbian.

I don't think any rational person ever thought that was a suggestion that violence should be commited against some lesbian.

But the board's management needs to recognize the presence of posters who lurch toward and into racist and sexist hate-speech.

Yes, well, the problem with that is one has to have a sufficient grasp on reality to be able to differentiate "racist and sexist hate speech" from "anything I don't like" - and your posts have amply demonstrated you utterly lack that capacity.

[Argus]

It would seem that any real discussion on Harris and his political machinations on here is greeted with sarcasm. Harris was a front man, he had no real control of the government, it was all set up and controlled by the type of people now on the Harper gov/t and being preposed as new advisors.

Sigh. Of course, the evil corporate rich guy conspiracy theory. They're monitoring your thoughts, Margrace. Better go hide.

[Argus]

Yes, you should have read my post before responding. Thank you for acknowledging that I was indeed 100% correct to identify margrace's "American buddies" claim as the questionable component, and moreover to challenge the naysayers to explain their beef.

I accept your apology for your previous ill-conceived post.

The words "childish" and "adolescent" come to mind.

[M.Dancer]

Yes, you should have read my post before responding. Thank you for acknowledging that I was indeed 100% correct to identify margrace's "American buddies" claim as the questionable component, and moreover to challenge the naysayers to explain their beef.

I accept your apology for your previous ill-conceived post.

You should go into the archives and read the Posts from Figleaf.

Then modify your style....

Edited May 27, 2008 by M.Dancer

[Kitchener]

You should go into the archives and read the Posts from Figleaf.

What exactly about some other poster's style excuses your strange decision to project your own fancies onto my post and respond to things I didn't say? As if I'd said there was something unique about Harris's golden parachutes in the political or corporate business worlds?

Of course, even though I didn't say that, you might have got all dizzy from hyperventilating and decided that I meant it anyhow. In which case it's unfortunate that you managed skip over where I already noted, in English and everything: "This sort of post-career influence-peddling goes on all the time, and is hardly confined to the furthest right on the political spectrum. But that it paid off big-time for Harris (the "Research Fellowship" being the most entertaining) is beyond question.

What this leaves unestablished is margrace's inference that there was (at least an indirect) quid pro quo involved in Harris's case. There could be a useful discussion of that; it could be true, or true to a degree, or false. But neither margrace's claim nor the string of rationally empty horse-laughs that greeted the claim certainly proved anything. It's worth sorting out at least what facts in that case are known to hold, which is what I was doing."

Sorry for the buzzkill. Back your hyperventilating.

[Wild Bill]

Where ever you read that is wildly off the mark. Gotta present facts that are remotely close to reality if you want any credibility

The Association to Advance Collegiate Schools of Business represents biz schools around the world.

They currently have member schools in over 30 countries. Including Canada, the US and the UK. Link

Ohmigod, now they're killing companies in over 30 countries!

Sorry, I couldn't resist! I came from the high tech world of electronics. I was there selling the first micoprocessor chips. It was in the late 70's/early 80's when all the MBA's started to appear. As I had said, they killed two companies I had worked for and there were many others in my industry.

Mind you, that was back in the late Pleistocene Era and perhaps things are different today. The problems that I experienced with formally trained business managers was that they would pay no attention to the specific and unique details of your business. Rather, they assumed that their textbook examples were universal. This led to some very inappropriate decisions to my specific industry. For instance, most textbooks at the time used the automotive industry as their example. In that field sole source relationships with suppliers were a positive venue. In the electronics manufacturing industry it was the kiss of death! In fact, licensing agreements on new parts were mandatory between manufacturers as most customers would refuse to spec in any part that did not have drop-in industry alternatives available.

One distributor I worked for had a common problem that the incredible growth in the electronics industry of the time meant that it was easy for sales to outstrip receivables. In effect, you had sold so much you had a problem getting your payments back fast enough to pay your suppliers for your inventory. One spankin' new MBA consulted his textbooks and announced that we were going to reduce our inventory level to get things back in line. We were to do this by no longer buying items for stock but only for customer orders. He told us that this would mean that the customers would buy the items on the shelf and by not replacing them our inventory dollar level would then drop to a more reasonable level.

Of course, if he had understood our distribution industry he would have realized that nothing of the kind was going to occur. What happened was that the in-demand fast moving items were not replaced on the shelves so when customers called for price and delivery we had no stock and lost the order. We ended up with an inventory that was at the desired dollar level but was made up of slow moving items only. Without the common in-demand items many customers just no longer bothered to check with us at all!

I'll agree that my perspective may not be broad enough to justify my opinions Michael and that you need more points to draw a curve but after my personal experiences I'm afraid I'm rather jaded about what is taught in business schools.

As you might imagine, I read the "Dilbert" comic strip faithfully every day in my morning paper and collect the author's books. If you are familiar with the strip you may know that the author swears he does not make up any of his themes but uses real case histories sent to him by readers who work in offices as the basis of his humour. Many times I recognize situations that actually happened at some places I had worked!

Edited May 27, 2008 by Wild Bill

[Argus]

Ohmigod, now they're killing companies in over 30 countries!

Sorry, I couldn't resist! I came from the high tech world of electronics. I was there selling the first micoprocessor chips. It was in the late 70's/early 80's when all the MBA's started to appear. As I had said, they killed two companies I had worked for and there were many others in my industry.

I understand your point, and there is something in it. But still - I am presently expereincing the opposite problem. Here, you get to be a manager, in large part - well, by being billingual - but beyond that, through having knowledge and expertise in a particular program or policy. That does nothing, unfortunately, to prepare you to be a manager, where you're suddenly dealing with budgets, handling HR and staffing issues, and dealing with the endless demands for "urgent" reports from higher up. A lot of these managers flounder, and while the agency offers a lot of courses (analytical thinking is popular, though you'd think one would have to be an analytical thinker to become a manager) they're not the solid training in HR, budgeting, finance and management you can get in university.

As for our incompetent IT department, like our massively incompetent HR department, both are notorious for having few people with business training.

[M.Dancer]

Yes, you should have read my post before responding. Thank you for acknowledging that I was indeed 100% correct to identify margrace's "American buddies" claim as the questionable component, and moreover to challenge the naysayers to explain their beef.

I accept your apology for your previous ill-conceived post.

I wasn't referring to you, i was acknowledging the poster who knew what they were talking about. But stick around, if I need an uniformed opinion I will be sure to PM you.

[Topaz]

The question should be what does a progressive conservative chief of staff know about an alliance government that calls itself conservative?

[M.Dancer]

What exactly about some other poster's style excuses your strange decision to project your own fancies onto my post and respond to things I didn't say? As if I'd said there was something unique about Harris's golden parachutes in the political or corporate business worlds?

I merely pointed out your spurious claims that not being an automotive expert disqualified Harris from being a board member. As I said, they were red herrings (oops...fish of colour). While it is your opinion that Harris' appointments are "golden parachutes" I submit your opinion on the subject is as worthless as a red herring given you have already shown your understandings of boards is limited..

[Kitchener]

I merely pointed out your spurious claims that not being an automotive expert disqualified Harris from being a board member.

Since I said no such thing, you "merely pointed out" nothing at all -- save your shoddy reasoning and reading skills.

Harris was clearly appointed to major corporate boards solely due to his political career, having no other obvious expertise or credentials to offer. That's what I noted -- in my defense, because it is obviously perfectly correct. And that much, at least, is consistent with the quid pro quo hypothesis; the situation is quite different from that of a lawyer politician who then goes on to a plum post with a top law firm.

The "American buddies" claim, I observed, has no clear support; it's "fair enough" to find it implausible.

The next step, one might have hoped, would be for margrace and his critics to pony up with some specific evidence, coherently marshaled, for and against claims of personal connections, corporate Cui bono? observations, and so forth. Yet he, and they, and you, have opted for pratfalls instead.

[Keepitsimple]

I merely pointed out your spurious claims that not being an automotive expert disqualified Harris from being a board member. As I said, they were red herrings (oops...fish of colour). While it is your opinion that Harris' appointments are "golden parachutes" I submit your opinion on the subject is as worthless as a red herring given you have already shown your understandings of boards is limited..

Fish of colour. I like it - that's funny. Some of these very serious posters need a sense of humour.

[M.Dancer]

Since I said no such thing, you "merely pointed out" nothing at all -- save your shoddy reasoning and reading skills.

Harris was clearly appointed to major corporate boards solely due to his political career, having no other obvious expertise or credentials to offer. That's what I noted -- in my defense, because it is obviously perfectly correct. And that much, at least, is consistent with the quid pro quo hypothesis; the situation is quite different from that of a lawyer politician who then goes on to a plum post with a top law firm.

The "American buddies" claim, I observed, has no clear support; it's "fair enough" to find it implausible.

The next step, one might have hoped, would be for margrace and his critics to pony up with some specific evidence, coherently marshaled, for and against claims of personal connections, corporate Cui bono? observations, and so forth. Yet he, and they, and you, have opted for pratfalls instead.

Gosh, first you imply he didn't merit his appointments, then you deny you said that, then you say it again, his appointments are not merit based.

My mistake, I assumed you might be honourable enough to stand behind your statements, not bob a weave like a punch drunk pugilist...

What part of the quote you reproduced was false? The American bit? Fair enough, but still -- what's accurate is more notable than what isn't.

Harris was indeed an unsuccessful school-teacher, who then worked at a golf course.

After retiring from politics, he held or holds sinecures on the boards of at least several major corporations, including Magna (despite having no automotive parts expertise), Grey Island Systems International (despite having no telematics/transport experience), and Goodmans LLP (despite having no legal background). He is, incredibly, also a "Senior Research Fellow" at the Fraser Institute. (You know Harris -- renowned for his scholarship.) I suspect that only a select few readers are capable of the cognitive inability to detect the golden parachutes.

Play the sophist all you want but please don't play the fool cause you're fooling no one. I know what you were implying and you really don't have the skill to bullshit deftly.

[HisSelf]

What a naive post....

Anyone who knows anything about Walkerton knows that two drunks who knew lttle about water treatment were appointed by city council. They circumvented their testing by simply taking water out of the taps. They ignored warnings. They were drunk on the job. What system can account for wilful negligence. They were tried and should have been found guilty of involuntary manslaughter but the judge figured they had suffered enough - I don't think they did.

And naive right back. The Ministry that was supposed to be monitoring this and enforcing standards had been reduced tot he point where it barely existed anymore and was unable to live up to its obligations. Yeah, the two idiots running the water treatment plant were incompetent and negligent, but the Provincial watchdog that was supposed to police the system did not do its job.

I forgot to mention. Tony Clements is another Harris man Harper has taken on board.

[HisSelf]

What a naive post. He inherited an 8 or 9 billion dollar deficit from the NDP and had to bear the brunt of reduced transfersw from the Federal Liberals. Putting the inherited deficit in perspective, at that time total annual revenues were only about 45 billion - yet the NDP were spending 53 or 54 billion - that's almost 20% over budget. In comparison, McGuinty's Liberals inherited a 5 billion dollar deficit but have had about 85 billion in revenues to work with - that's about 7% over budget. At the time that Harris came in, taxes were so high that businesses were fleeing Ontario and revenues were in danger of going down. Ontario was oh so close to bankruptcy and anything less than drastic action would have brought that about. By slashing taxes. he stimulated the economy, revenues rose, he invested in Healthcare and Education - saving both. He was the right man at the right time but clearly ran out of steam - as "fixers" tend to do. I'm not a personal Mike Harris fan but I have to tip my hat to how he saved the province from absolute ruin. Mike Harris accomplished a mountain of achievements - that's why he got the largest back to back majorities in Ontario history.

It is never surprising to see a Harris apologist try to use Rae as an excuse. Let's see. What was the econbomy like when Rae came into office? Hmm that was the recession of 1990 was it not? Hmmm. And what were interest rates like in those days? Anybody remember? Anybody remember the recovery that happened, oh let's see, when was that? If you are crediting Harris with any part of the recovery, then it is you who are naive. The Ontario economy then, as now, was inextricably linked to that of the US. That is where the recovery came from. As for teacher testing. Just what exactly does that prove? What other professions are subjected to this nonsense? Harris just did what a lot of bad politicians do. He picked somebody to beat up on to win popularity.

If Harris were a fixer, he'd probably still be in office. Harris broke things worse than they were when he got into office.

Edited May 28, 2008 by HisSelf

[HisSelf]

I'm sure more than a few readers here have the knowledge of corporate governance to understand how weak your claims are.

It is in the best interest of an organization with a board of directors that the composition of the directors come from a cross-section of backgrounds and experiences.

As the head of the province with the largest economy in the country Harris has exactly the set of experiences that any set of rational shareholders looks for as part of the team that governs how their investment is managed.

Personally, I find this an odious practise that leaves too many loopholes open for politicians to feather their retirement nests at the expesne of good governance. Federal civil servants are not premitted to take jobs with anybody they had dealings with for a certain period of time after they leave their jobs. Much more stringent rules should apply to heads of government and cabinet ministers. There is simply too much room for hanky panky here.