Food prices

[margrace]

In an editorial in the Western Ontario Farmer recently, Paul Mahon, listed the closing of food processing plants in Ontario. This morning on the news another plant in Listowel is to be closed putting 400 people out of work. Here is an article on the closing of Peach procesing plants. Not much wonder Ontario is in trouble.

freshplaza.com/news_detail.asp?id=17864

[speaker]

unfortunate, eh? at a time when the concept of eating closer to home, like the hundred mile diet etc., seem to be taking off. It would be too bad to see what little fruit production we have go down the tube just when it looks like we are going to need it.

[eyeball]

We really do need to develop a strategy for the day when peak greed finally tips over the planet's ability to sustain the world. Letting food processing plants go is like throwing one of the life boats oars over the side.

How is this going to help Ontario or Canada as a whole? Prices for processed food will now have to include the cost of shipping that food from farther away and we'll probably have to ship more of our precious and scarce oil to wherever the food is shipped from so it can get here. Since we're going to have to pay for it one way or another I say a government subsidy is in order and can be justified on the basis that food, like oil, is a basic necessity. Like an oar is to a lifeboat.

[Renegade]

In an editorial in the Western Ontario Farmer recently, Paul Mahon, listed the closing of food processing plants in Ontario. This morning on the news another plant in Listowel is to be closed putting 400 people out of work. Here is an article on the closing of Peach procesing plants. Not much wonder Ontario is in trouble.

freshplaza.com/news_detail.asp?id=17864

Why the fuss?

"It's cheaper for processors to import peaches from China and Greece than it is to grow them here." McGuigan said

Canada: CanGro to close; Local peach growers to make tough decisions

If it is cheaper to import peaches why wouldn't we just do so? It seems like a sensible decision on the part of the processors. If the answer is that Ontario peaches are better, then why isn't the consumer (and producers by proxy) prepared to pay higher prices for Ontario-grown?

Edited April 30, 2008 by Renegade

[madmax]

In an editorial in the Western Ontario Farmer recently, Paul Mahon, listed the closing of food processing plants in Ontario. This morning on the news another plant in Listowel is to be closed putting 400 people out of work. Here is an article on the closing of Peach procesing plants. Not much wonder Ontario is in trouble.

freshplaza.com/news_detail.asp?id=17864

One of the things that I have found interesting and you will see the very same trend on these forums.

You start talking about the manufacturing crises in Ontario and people within one post, talk AUTOMOTIVE, which regardless of all the noise, and are taking a beating in various tier one suppliers etc, the rest of the Manufacturing Sector has been very much affected.

Hersheys in Cornwall

Beef Processing in Guelph

Campbells

You could ryhme off HUNDREDS of places in the last 4 years that have closed....

Here is a list that just one Person has associated in the closing...

Dorothea Knitting

Conagra Foods

Grand National

Wolverine Ratcliffe (Fergus)

Johnson Controls

#1 Apparel (Mount Forest)

A.G Simpson (Count all the different Plants)

Levis Strauss

Rennie Inc

UCAR Inc

National Standard, Guelph

Emerson

General Seating

Hussman

Cunningham

Pilkington (Collingwood)

Irvin Aerospace

Galaher Paper Mill

Weyheuser

Welland Pipe

Atlas Steel

Fantom Technologies

Domtar

Gates

The Barn

Genfast

Easton Coatings

Crane

Am Can

Westcast

BlueBird

Copperweld

Kester Solder

And there is more, infact, so many more....

These are Closures, not layoffs, and many of these plants were profitable at the time of the announcement, and many had record profits in the few short years before the closures. Others were on the brink and their time was up regardless.

Many were bought up and their assetts collected to move production South or Off SHore.

Regardless, McGuinty was useless on the file. Pupatello even worse. And John Tory had NO PLAN when he ran, because he was being pushed and pulled like McGuinty. If business want to relocate, they want the government to give them a handout to do it.... and many get that cash in technology funds, then shut down their production and move it and the tech....

McGuinty will hide behind "Training" which isn't bad, but it is also not a solution.

Even worse is the Current Federal Government and Prospective Liberal Government in Waiting. Two visions that are so similar in appearance you can't split hairs between them.

EMERSON..... :angry:

[Renegade]

How is this going to help Ontario or Canada as a whole?

By promoting efficiency in the market.

Prices for processed food will now have to include the cost of shipping that food from farther away and we'll probably have to ship more of our precious and scarce oil to wherever the food is shipped from so it can get here.

The prices already do include the cost of shipping that food from further away, even with that it is STILL cheaper to import peaches. As far as "precious and scarce oil" that isn't given away for free, go ask the oil producers in Alberta.

Since we're going to have to pay for it one way or another I say a government subsidy is in order and can be justified on the basis that food, like oil, is a basic necessity. Like an oar is to a lifeboat.

Hmm, you seem to think that suddenly there will be a shortage of canned peaches in the supermarket and then people will starve.

Not at all like an oar is to a lifeboat, more like a millstone to a neck.

[madmax]

Canada will lose all of its manufacturing and processing to Mexico. Why pay a Canadian $20/hr + benefits when they can pay a Mexican $3/hr with no benefits.

Let our supreme intellect develop technologies so we can further exploit others to do our labour while Canadians get rich.

Welcome Back Qwerty....

Love reading your post.....

Mexico has a hard enough time competing with China.....

Many operations that came back from Mexico relocated in Ontario after the Mexican Experiment failed to produce quality labour quality workmanship. The technical background just wasn't well enough established.

China has a strong technological base with Communist Totalitariasm and Western Capital Investment. They don't float their currency, and offer many "Perks' to locate their, as do many Asian Countries.

Southern US also offers "Incentives" to relocate production.

You suggest that we DO NOT compete on the Level Playing field. That we surrender our Manufacturing Base. That we no longer be an industrialized nation.

Why would we not want to have the largest valued added sector of the economy in Canada?

While Manufacturing was 16% of the Ontario Economy and falling rapidly, I can understand why many people do not undertand the sector or the riches it provides. It is also a ruthless and cutthroat sector, particularly the larger it gets. It is also competitive....

But that DOESN'T mean that Governments in other Countries Don't Solicite Manufacturing. THEY DO SOLICITE MANUFACTURING... IT is always a COUP to land a manufacturing plant.

Only an ignorant person with no understanding would suggest surrender over competing.

Why should we allow a company that is making Millions of Dollars be purchased by foreigners and then announce a shutdown to move production offshore?

What good is this to a community when the industry was thriving, paying the wages of many people?

No society is stagnate and things change, that is the nature of the best, but to aid and abet closures of profitable plants offshore is not a benefit to the local economy....

Wages of Engineers can be had in China for $300/Month....

China has a plentiful and educated workforce.

China doesn't float its dollar.

South Korea doesn't allow foreign goods to protect their large manufacturing base.

Japan Doesn't allow foreign goods to protect its large manufacturing base, even though they do signifant offshore investment in Korea, China, US, Canada and Europe...

We have an open door policy to pillage and take (Mergers and Aquisitions) and Bankruptcy Legisilation that aids and abetts the moving of manufacturing production, skills and technology at virtually no cost to the company.

I understand peoples ignorance.

Its not their field, background, and often the economics taught in school, don't cover corruption, politics, greed and ethics..... It's about the MONEY!!!

Technological Exploits ?

With each movement of Manufacturing you move technology.

Regardless, technical skills like..... Financial, Banking, Insurance are being located offshore in India etc.

Services are also being relocated.... Bell technical support is done in India. If they could find a way to pay a local technician here $30/month, I am certain it would be done.

There is little to suggest that all these closures are creating Wealth?

Wealth is being created in China.....

Investment is being directed to China...

People need employment for Sustenance....

So EXACTLY .....

What "SUPREME INTELLECT TECHNOLOGy" are you talking about?

[madmax]

Why the fuss?

If it is cheaper to import peaches why wouldn't we just do so? It seems like a sensible decision on the part of the processors. If the answer is that Ontario peaches are better, then why isn't the consumer (and producers by proxy) prepared to pay higher prices for Ontario-grown?

Because Obviously it is NOT cheaper to produce Peaches on the farm mentioned. He would have to shift his produce across the globe to where the new processing plant will be.

It is the processing plant that is closing. The Ripple effect is the local farmer has a bunch of Peach Trees with no place to process.

Economic basics suggests that this is the way it should be. That the Local Farmer should then move into something else.....

Of course when we are fully dependent on offshore produce, and are a nation of beggars because we cannot grown our own food, will the economic model suggest change.

Economic Sense from the means of production, nonsense for an independent nation.

[Renegade]

Of course when we are fully dependent on offshore produce, and are a nation of beggars because we cannot grown our own food, will the economic model suggest change.

You suggest that "nation of beggars because we cannot grown our own food". Why would that be? If we are a nation producing something more valuable than food, and can trade it for food, how does that make us beggars?

Economic Sense from the means of production, nonsense for an independent nation.

So do you apply this economic model to yourself? (ie independance make sense). Do you grow your own food and other essentials?

[madmax]

You suggest that "nation of beggars because we cannot grown our own food". Why would that be? If we are a nation producing something more valuable than food, and can trade it for food, how does that make us beggars?

So do you apply this economic model to yourself? (ie independance make sense). Do you grow your own food and other essentials?

Since most basic Economics is pure "THEORY" and no model can ever match the complexities of the market place and nations therein....you are allowed to ask such a realistic and reasonable question.

When your nation cannot grow food, or sustain itself, as in many 3rd and 4th world countries, where the ability to grow food for export exceeds the ability to pay for food locally creates poverty and starvation. Many poor countries have the means to sustain themselves without foreign intervention. (I digress)

However, to your point.

If we export our manufacturing base, and food production. If you understand farming and realize that Farming is Industrial by nature, and food processing is after the primary act, and we arrive at a conclusion met in another thread where people suggest we let it all leave the country and move onto technological exploits....

What does one do, when food production is not available on the open market, such as WAR, Faminine, Foreign Government Intervention... in say a period of 80 years?

Demand would outstripped surplus and we would be hard pressed to feed ourselves. ( Insert Apocolyptic fear music here)

At this point would the market, correct itself, providing local food provided the means still existed and the fields weren't covered in Suburbia, and the markets allowed us to purchase our own locally grown food vs export it to meet the global demand.

Would we choose profits over starvation as a society?

Some countries are/have been victims of such policies in the past. Some countries have benefited from such activities.

Ever Recall some major food crises in the past?

We had a consumer food product in the 70s produced in a Latin South American Country.

The wanted to make more money so they increased the yield only to see supply exceeded demand. Prices then fell, making the situation far worse then it was before.

A few years after.... A shortage of produce because of (insert HORRIFIC CROP KILLING PLAGUE here) and the prices went through the ceiling. The country and farmers never made a larger killing in their life. Realizing that shortage can create record profits and wealth. (Think oil today, be it real or manufactured fear)

Hydro is a product that can easily be manipulated to create record profit by creating a shortage of supply.

Now think of food or water. This is truly life sustaining, more so then oil, when push comes to shove.

If you need food or water, and you cannot pay for it, you will fight for it, for hunger/starvation knows no law.

Economics understands markets, choice, but not survival, interference and human activity.

Now, could you tell me what we can produce that is more valuable then food?

[Leafless]

Now, could you tell me what we can produce that is more valuable then food?

Sure, PEOPLE who eat food.

This thread has flown off the hinges.

[oreodontist]

More valuble than food? Lot s of things.

My wife and I work about 11 minutes a day to earn enough to pay our food budget. The rest of the time is spent producing value that can be used otherwise.

One doesn't benefit from stopping the import of fruits and vegetables from other countries by growing them in Canada. The economy of Canada is more efficient by producing other goods or services to exchange for food through the market place.

The farmer in Kenya grows coffee....it doesn't feed his family...BUT...he can sell the coffee to buyers and earn enough money to buy food, school supplies and perhaps a cell phone or a pair of shoes. there is nothing magical about food as a commodity.

[Topaz]

Has anyone read the book "Back to Basics?" It's how one can depend on themself as afar as food goes. The peach farmer can have a

"pick your own" farm business like the strawberry farmers do. Anyone can go out and buy two peach trees and grow their own fruit and its a lot safer too. There's many people who will have their own gardens this summer and the local markets will probably cheaper than the groceries stores.

[margrace]

Having pick your own food, strawberries and Peaches, even tomatoes is a wonderful idea. The problem is we cannot grow peaches here, strawberries do grow but the amount of water it takes is horrendous. I grow my own tomatoes but what about in the winter.

There doesn't seem to be a single person on here who realizes how fragile our food system is. Starvation would only need one or two bad years. Millions are losing their food supply in other countries. Does no one care?

[eyeball]

There doesn't seem to be a single person on here who realizes how fragile our food system is. Starvation would only need one or two bad years. Millions are losing their food supply in other countries. Does no one care?

12 or so large commercial boats that have just started fishing offshore here came up completely blank after 3 - 5 days fishing. That's quite a lot a of gear covering quite a lot of ground. No one's seen anything quite like it. They've never seen anything quite like the $500 - $750 dollar a day fuel bills either, plus food, plus monitoring fees, plus insurance, plus plus plus...

Ah what's the use...no one cares...

Edited May 1, 2008 by eyeball

[Wild Bill]

I didn't see anyone mention that we have little or no control over how foreign food has been grown. I mean, we couldn't even trust China with pet food!

You need inspection and enforcement at the source. Trying to analyze the contents of a can is much more difficult.

Furthermore, historically we put all kinds of restrictions on our farmers as to what chemicals and sprays they can use and how they must handle produce, in the name of "clean living". This inflated domestic costs, often to the point where farmers can no longer complete with imports.

Yet we pay absolutely no attention as to whether other countries enforce the same standards as we do! A spray that is banned in Canada may be common usage in another country and that country can and does ship food into Canada covered with the stuff!

I'm a free trader but restrictions that cause extra costs on domestic products should certainly be applied to imports as well. Otherwise you make a mockery of the idea of free trade and a level playing field.

Implications that Canada's farmers are just not competive are kinda smarmy, when these factors are considered.

What's more, it exposes the true intent of such "health" laws about farming. If they were truly about protecting the Canadian public then of course the same restrictions would have been applied to imported food. Since they never have (or at least, never enforced) it's obvious that they are only about a photo-op.

[AngusThermopyle]

More valuble than food? Lot s of things.

You could not be more wrong.

Name something more valuable than food. About the only thing I can think of is water, and I wouldn't say it was more valuable, rather I would place it on par with food. Simply put there is no possible way for you or anyone else to survive without either of them. You may have a $20,000 camping trailer, or 60" Plasma but they mean nothing if you don't have food, though I do admit that I'd enjoy watching you trying to eat that sort of thing.

[Renegade]

When your nation cannot grow food, or sustain itself, as in many 3rd and 4th world countries, where the ability to grow food for export exceeds the ability to pay for food locally creates poverty and starvation. Many poor countries have the means to sustain themselves without foreign intervention. (I digress)

Your statement seems to counter your own position. If a country grows a surplus of food and is able to export it, yet its population is so poor that they cannot afford that food, is that country making the right choice? Perhaps if they made a different choice, their populaion would have wealth to purchase food (local or imported) and stave off starvation.

What does one do, when food production is not available on the open market, such as WAR, Faminine, Foreign Government Intervention... in say a period of 80 years?

Demand would outstripped surplus and we would be hard pressed to feed ourselves. ( Insert Apocolyptic fear music here)

You are suggesting that this is realistic scenario. Please give some real examples where this has occured. (ie if the citizens had the wealth to buy food on the open market, and were prevented from doing so, by "WAR, Faminine, Foreign Government Intervention").

If you can't provide examples, then I would assume that this is not a realistic scenario, and you are using a "the sky is falling" argument to elicit support an expensive and unnecessary practice.

Would we choose profits over starvation as a society?

Huh? If there was suddenly a shortage of food and prices rocketed up, would local producers not want to be paid market prices for their food? The only diffierence is that it would be local producers collecting the profit rather than foreign. BTW, if local producers thought it was a realistic scenario, they would keep farming despite losses on the expectation that one day they could cash in because of a food shortage. The fact that they rather close farms is evidence that they do not consider this realistic.

Some countries are/have been victims of such policies in the past. Some countries have benefited from such activities.

Which countries are you specificly referring to?

Ever Recall some major food crises in the past?

like? Cm'on now be specific.

We had a consumer food product in the 70s produced in a Latin South American Country.

The wanted to make more money so they increased the yield only to see supply exceeded demand. Prices then fell, making the situation far worse then it was before.

A few years after.... A shortage of produce because of (insert HORRIFIC CROP KILLING PLAGUE here) and the prices went through the ceiling. The country and farmers never made a larger killing in their life. Realizing that shortage can create record profits and wealth. (Think oil today, be it real or manufactured fear)

I don't know the situation you are talking about, but so what. Let's say it was coffee. If the price of coffee was high enough would not the market move to subsitutes or give it up entierely? Maybe if you were more specific about the situation, we could look at it as an example.

Hydro is a product that can easily be manipulated to create record profit by creating a shortage of supply.

So what? If there is record profit, investors would be investing more in creating more supply.

Now think of food or water. This is truly life sustaining, more so then oil, when push comes to shove.

If you need food or water, and you cannot pay for it, you will fight for it, for hunger/starvation knows no law.

Economics understands markets, choice, but not survival, interference and human activity.

Hmm, that seems to completely contridict your argument. Let's say that you are correct in your scenario and their is a shortage of food/water. Since food is something "you will fight for it, for hunger/starvation knows no law", what is to stop a more powerful country who needs food/water from taking the locally grown food from Canada by force? Why bother to grow it when it comes to crisis time, someone else takes it away.

Now, could you tell me what we can produce that is more valuable then food?

Pretty much everything. The value of food is simply what people are willing to pay for it. Until it is in shortage and people are willing to pay more, pretty much everything else is more valuable.

[Renegade]

You could not be more wrong.

Name something more valuable than food. About the only thing I can think of is water, and I wouldn't say it was more valuable, rather I would place it on par with food. Simply put there is no possible way for you or anyone else to survive without either of them. You may have a $20,000 camping trailer, or 60" Plasma but they mean nothing if you don't have food, though I do admit that I'd enjoy watching you trying to eat that sort of thing.

Food/water is only valuable if there is a shortage, until then it is simply not valuable.

[AngusThermopyle]

Food/water is only valuable if there is a shortage, until then it is simply not valuable.

Yeah. Okay.

Food and water are only valuable if you wish to keep breathing.

Go ahead, scorn worthless food and water, good luck with your new diet.

[Renegade]

Food and water are only valuable if you wish to keep breathing.

How much do you pay for your invaluable food, Angus?

[oreodontist]

You could not be more wrong.

Name something more valuable than food. About the only thing I can think of is water, and I wouldn't say it was more valuable, rather I would place it on par with food. Simply put there is no possible way for you or anyone else to survive without either of them. You may have a $20,000 camping trailer, or 60" Plasma but they mean nothing if you don't have food, though I do admit that I'd enjoy watching you trying to eat that sort of thing.

Much is more valuable. you asked what is more valuable...not what in theory is needed for survival. My wife and I earn our food budget by 8:15 every morning. That leaves about 930 dollars a day for other purchases. We could spend all 8 hours tilling the soil and feed our bellies (with quite a blah diversity) and have zero left for a house, taxes for health care, taxes for security, a car, vacation, and everything else in life.

Don't confuse 'value' and 'necessity'. You can spend all your wages on hoarding canned food...but, persnally, I don't need to buy 500 cans of beans every day....it would have no 'value' to our family.

[AngusThermopyle]

not what in theory is needed for survival.

Actually no theory at all here, just pure unadulterated fact. So what if you earn your groceries in a hurry. What you are saying is that you place a low value on your survival, suit yourself then. For me survival is of the greatest value. Its hard to place value on personal possessions when you're dead, go right ahead though, devalue your personal survival.

[Leafless]

For me survival is of the greatest value.

Yes, food processing companies and their SHAREHOLDERS know this.

Nice little game isn't it?

[margrace]

Yes, food processing companies and their SHAREHOLDERS know this.

Nice little game isn't it?

This is the first of the month and already our food bank was working flat out at capacity. I hate to think what the volume will be by the end of the month. No we don't need food and we certainly don't need water. I mean we can live almost a week without them and then someone else will have our most valualble possessions.