Canada Election Issue - Gun Control

[maplesyrup]

Hey, all you folks that want to abolish gun control - don't you want to support your police? It seems like the gun control resistry is working for the purpose that it was intended for.

'Police chiefs urge Ottawa to resist attacks on gun registry'

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...Story/National/

'The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police wants the federal government to resist attacks on Canada's gun control system, which the chiefs call a "vital tool in combatting crime."

"We cannot combat the misuse of guns without strong controls," said association president Edgar MacLeod, chief of the Cape Breton Regional Police Service.'

In a release Wednesday, association president Mr. MacLeod called proposals to scrap the gun control regime a serious threat to the public safety.

"We just recently had a case where an individual made threats to staff at Children's Aid. Because of the system, we knew he had firearms and were able to obtain a warrant to seize them."

Mr. MacLeod said he's received examples from police across the country about cases where the system has enabled them to prevent violent crimes.'

[SirRiff]

if a mentally fit person cannot figure out that gun control is good, they are living in la la land. no matter how inefficient things are in goverment, no matter how inconvienent it is for some farmer in alberta, the policy and long term results will be an improvement over doing nothing.

hell, if you can prove nobody will get shot in canada this year, we can do nothing. if people keep getting shot needlessly, we obviously still have work to do.

police are the experts on this stuff, if they said scrap it i would support it, if they say keep it, its obvious to keep it.

[Boydfish]

if a mentally fit person cannot figure out that gun control is good, they are living in la la land. no matter how inefficient things are in goverment, no matter how inconvienent it is for some farmer in alberta, the policy and long term results will be an improvement over doing nothing.

Since the overwhelming majority of criminal activity is done by young people, no matter how inefficient or inconvienent it is for people under 40, they should be locked up in camps under heavy police guard high in the mountains. Surely you must agree?

hell, if you can prove nobody will get shot in canada this year, we can do nothing. if people keep getting shot needlessly, we obviously still have work to do.

Oddly, I've been to homicide scenes where the murder weapon is a knife. Or a rock. Or a pizza oven. Or their bare hands. Having a gun doesn't make you suddenly want to kill somebody: You first want to kill somebody, then you pick a tool to do it.

police are the experts on this stuff, if they said scrap it i would support it, if they say keep it, its obvious to keep it.

If the police demand the right to unreasonably search you because "They're the experts", then are you willing to give up that right too? That's not hyperbole, by the way: VPD's spokesperson stated that unless the police were not allowed to overlook people's rights in searching people with no cause, the police would not "permit" large public gatherings like the Symphony of Fire.

[Goldie]

I don't own a gun, never will.

I watched the movie Bowling for Coumbine and what I came away with was, death by gun does not correlate with gun ownership. To register guns therefore would seem not to have an impact.

I'm sure 2003 was the year that within Canada more people died from handgun gunshots than previous years.

I don't live in la la land, but wish I did. Because if I did then I could make deductions like, since more people died with the gun registery in place than past years of registrant impotence, then the registry resulted in more handgun deaths.

One could then state that the Liberal Government of Canada spent about a Billion loonies to increase the numbers of death by handgun.

I also wonder how registering a gun will help it not kill someone. If my registerd vehicle was stolen, is it less likely to be used in a criminal offence or is more likely? If I went wacko and slammed my car into the police headquarters, I doubt they would say, " Oh my god this should not have happened man, he was driving a registered vehicle".

The problem seems to be illegal weapons coming from the US, especially handguns to which the registry should target. I still fail to see how knowing a person has guns would diminsh their use in a crime. If police enter a situation they usually take the position that they are in danger and take precaution.

Now lets suppose the police are told via rampart there is a situation in the north where Joe Canuck is hostile but according to the registry he has no weapons. Oops, he just came back from Michigan with more weapons and Planet of the Apes tapes than, well, Charelton Heston. The police are less vigilant because of the registry of budget destruction and failure to identify banned weapons. "Wow, That guy shot at us even though the registry told us he had no weapons"

Another situation is thus, John smith has never had a gun and enjoys staying home watching Martha Stewart pretend to be interested in making muffs for those damp cells.

Jay Smith however has weapons and works nights at Tims. This fella has to walk or call a taxie to get home. Needless to say he is affraid so owns a gun and carries it.

There seems to be a situation at Johns work as someone has taken off with the Timbits from the earlier office meeting.

A mixup ensues and as Police show up to question John they have viewed the file(but the wrong one) and fear this guy has weapons. Too bad for John because he answered the door holding the remote controll for the T.V. that looked too much like the gun he never owned or registered. I could hear the deffence," the registry said he had guns".

[Michael Hardner]

if a mentally fit person cannot figure out that gun control is good, they are living in la la land. no matter how inefficient things are in goverment, no matter how inconvienent it is for some farmer in alberta, the policy and long term results will be an improvement over doing nothing.

Sorry, Riff, but it's oversimplifying to say gun control is 'good' or 'bad'.

Although I favour gun control and even a ban on hunting, there are some downsides to these things. For one thing, you're demanding that people in the country do something to ( obtensibly ) solve a city problem.

The hinterlands of Canada and the inner cities are culturally miles apart and getting further apart every day. This gulf manifests itself in various political disagreements that have an effect on our nation's unity.

I think more gun control is a good thing for cities, especially for the police that protect us but I worry that this and other issues are causing irreparable rifts in our national fabric. The least we can do is acknowledge the fact that others are being forced to make sacrifices for our benefit...

[maplesyrup]

Canadians have been asked to register firearms.

85% of firearms in Canada have already been registered

Why is this a problem?

What does it matter whether you live in a urban or rural area, as far as the registration process goes?

Perhaps there is more use for rifles in the country than the cities by civilians, but what does this have to do with the gun control registry?

[Michael Hardner]

Perhaps there is more use for rifles in the country than the cities by civilians, but what does this have to do with the gun control registry?

We're asking legal gun owners to register their guns. For hunters and country shooting types, this is an inconvenience that they have to go through in order to help with a city problem.

I thought I was clear.

[udawg]

Ignoring the horror stories and what-if scenarios on both sides of the argument, what it comes down to is whether or not it is worth the trouble to make legal gun users pay to register weapons they will not use in a criminal act.

In my opinion, it is not worth the trouble. Gun owners with legal pretexts for owning a weapon are not the ones we need to be worried about. They are not the ones using firearms in crimes, and they are not the ones who need regulating.

The real criminals are not likely to register their guns anyway, and many crimes are commited with weapons that are illegal to possess in Canada, registered or not. I bet all the gangsters in Vancouver and Toronto are going to go to the local RCMP station to register their AK-47s. Or maybe they'll go register the weapon they just killed someone with. They can dodge the murder rap, but don't wanna get caught with an unregistered gun, oh no.

[SirRiff]

Sorry, Riff, but it's oversimplifying to say gun control is 'good' or 'bad'.

Although I favour gun control and even a ban on hunting, there are some downsides to these things. For one thing, you're demanding that people in the country do something to ( obtensibly ) solve a city problem.

city problem??? what the hell

you mean nobody from outside a city has even been hurt by a gun? where do you think the main population of canada is? the CITIES

thus its a national quality of life problem. a gun in teh country can kill anybody accross canada if some wacko decides to use it.

because the harm of guns FAR out weight the good of guns, its VERY appropriate to make it difficult to have a gun.

just like alcohol, or tobacco, or drugs. they take far more from society then they give. that justifies a strict response

[Michael Hardner]

city problem??? what the hell

you mean nobody from outside a city has even been hurt by a gun? where do you think the main population of canada is? the CITIES

Of course people outside the city have been harmed by guns but it's city crime that has driven the registry solution.

because the harm of guns FAR out weight the good of guns, its VERY appropriate to make it difficult to have a gun.

How do you measure out such a thing ? By your own values, that's how.

I'm not saying the law is bad in itself, I'm just saying we owe a debt to those who we're forcing to comply with the law.

[SirRiff]

How do you measure out such a thing ? By your own values, that's how.

i see, so your values dont see teh dead canadians every year? the crimes commited with guns? the caution that police have to take when dealing with armed criminals.

there are no values here, just everyday reality. look at the US, the resources america puts into just maintaing thier current gun crimes is massive.

benefits of guns?

hunting? self defence? i support hunting in principle, but hunters registering and paying fees is nothing in terms of the benefit to society at large. a little iinconvienence for them is nothing in terms of overall canadian societys quality of life improvement.

US NRA always cites "self defense" in terms of gun ownership. which is a fair argument, but i question the ratio of needless violence compared to the rare instance of a 45 yr old accountant blowing away some intruder and saving his family. just doesnt happen. not to mention the huge increase in risk of just having a gun around, as some kid, or some wacko, or some argument will get someone shot if not killed.

overall its a no brainer to see that all the resources wasted on protecting society from gun violence FAR outweights any arguable benefit they bring to individuals.

thus society as a whole would beenfit from reducing the ricks from guns further.

sirriff

[Michael Hardner]

i see, so your values dont see teh dead canadians every year? the crimes commited with guns? the caution that police have to take when dealing with armed criminals.

My values certainly do. But there are many things that we put up with that result in death in other places. No one has clean hands.

To some people, hunting and legally owning weapons is part of their heritage. All I'm saying is that we owe them a debt for forcing them to change.

there are no values here, just everyday reality. look at the US, the resources america puts into just maintaing thier current gun crimes is massive.

benefits of guns?

hunting? self defence? i support hunting in principle, but hunters registering and paying fees is nothing in terms of the benefit to society at large. a little iinconvienence for them is nothing in terms of overall canadian societys quality of life improvement.

US NRA always cites "self defense" in terms of gun ownership. which is a fair argument, but i question the ratio of needless violence compared to the rare instance of a 45 yr old accountant blowing away some intruder and saving his family. just doesnt happen. not to mention the huge increase in risk of just having a gun around, as some kid, or some wacko, or some argument will get someone shot if not killed.

overall its a no brainer to see that all the resources wasted on protecting society from gun violence FAR outweights any arguable benefit they bring to individuals.

thus society as a whole would beenfit from reducing the ricks from guns further.

sirriff

You're marginalizing a whole section of society that is foreign to you. I believe in gun control as I have said. But I also think that you can go a long way down the path of "making society better" at the expense of individual happiness. The least we can do is say "thanks" to the legal gun owners out there.

"Thanks" legal gun owners...

[KrustyKidd]

because the harm of guns FAR out weight the good of guns, its VERY appropriate to make it difficult to have a gun.

People who enjoy hunting, target shooting, collectin and biatholon would differ with you. As would those who are into history, particularly our county's history. Guess you decide what is importent for them to appreciatate. Have to send them a fax to let them know they are wrong, and you, of course, are right.

Wonder Riff, should we also send lettergrams to the people who bought ladders. You know, the tool designed for safety that kills three times as many people per year than the gun, which is specifically designed to kill? How about the off road vehicles? Chainsaws and so on and forth?

Hmmmm, also, how many people are getting killed each year from registered or unregistered long guns compared to pistols which have been registered scince the thirties? How many of those pistols were registereed?

You don't have a damm clue do you? Bring something to this debate besides hatred of freedom. I want to know what basis you have for being so willing to throw freedom away.

I don't see any need for body tatoos, they might promote HIV. See how stupid this can get when we walk on each other? The government loves it. Makes them think they are making progress when all they are doing is cornering all society into a cage.

I'm no Lion, guess I'm just an agressive form of domesticated animal as I don't fight too much. One thing I do recognise is a cow though.

Are you Guernsey or Jersey?

LOL, neither it seems.

just like alcohol, or tobacco, or drugs. they take far more from society then they give. that justifies a strict response

A dictator! Only Riff shall decide what we deem fun. Only Riff shall decide what is acceptable behavior. Only Riff shall decide whether we all like something or not. Only Riff shall decide if something is a freedom worth defending.

Free my mind Riff. Free me .................