The victory or the fall of democracy?

[xul]

quoted from CNN website:

Olympic torch hit by protests during Paris leg

The head of Reporters Without Borders, a French-based group that disrupted last month's torch lighting ceremony in Olympia, Greece, had told CNN before the relay began that his group has planned "something spectacular" to protest the relay.

I'm very funny of that those people who alleged themselves as guardians of human rights and freedom have no respect to other people's rights and will by using violence to enforce their value and idea to others.

Why did they use extinguishers to extinguish the Olympic torch for enforcing their ideology to other people in their country? A suicide bomb would be more "effective" than an extinguish.

I'm also very funny that some "writers", who called themselves reporters, have made themselve into their "story" as leading actors for lacking real actors to show their "spectacular" stunt.

Edited April 8, 2008 by xul

[Pliny]

Yes! Isn't it ironic.... and hypocritical.

[M.Dancer]

But it's mainly funny.

Here we have China so desperately wanting to be accepted as a modern functioning nation that they host the Olympics where 1000's of cameras and millions of eye's are turned towards them.......

....and they get humiliated by old men and monks for their effort.

If all tyrannies were humiliated so.

[margrace]

A story on democracy or not. Two women go into a council meeting to ask that a water drain from the upper part of the town be rerouted so that the water did not go through the basement of their house. The council members threatened them, we will condemn you house as having mould etc if you don't shut up and leave. When they protested they were threatened with the police being brought in.

A member of the council had a house in that area and there was a machine in at that time rerouting the water away from his house. All they wanted was the same machine to reroute around their house.

They later overheard a conversation in a store referring to them as those two bitches. They kept quiet about the water, sold the house at a loss and abandoned the town. By the way two of the coucillors, including the one who got his house bypassed were real estate agents.

Now where does democracy fit into small town Canada.

[M.Dancer]

A story on democracy or not. Two women go into a council meeting to ask that a water drain from the upper part of the town be rerouted so that the water did not go through the basement of their house. The council members threatened them, we will condemn you house as having mould etc if you don't shut up and leave. When they protested they were threatened with the police being brought in.

A member of the council had a house in that area and there was a machine in at that time rerouting the water away from his house. All they wanted was the same machine to reroute around their house.

They later overheard a conversation in a store referring to them as those two bitches. They kept quiet about the water, sold the house at a loss and abandoned the town. By the way two of the coucillors, including the one who got his house bypassed were real estate agents.

Now where does democracy fit into small town Canada.

Is there a link to this off topic story or is this just another thing you overheard?

[Wilber]

I don't think this will be looked back on as a shining moment in history. Most now regard the boycotts of the LA and Moscow Olympics as a mistake even though emotions were running high at that time as well. I don't see this any differently. Protests are fine but what these are engaging in is vandalism and that is how they will be looked at in the future.

[oreodontist]

Hats off to the protests. They are achieving what hasn't been achieved for decades: a front page focus on Tibet and the terror regime. The only motivator for the Chinese authorities is embarrassment

The Olympics is not the right avenue???!!! When is? what 'avenue' would get more attention fron the Chinese thugs? Polite diplomatic notes?

Dick Pound: 'every country has domestic issues.'

Sorry, the repression and killing of millions is not 'an issue'...it's a crime.

These Olympics, like those of the Nazis in the 1930's is a 'coming out party'. A veneer put on an authoritarian regime that gives it legitimacy. We shouldn't be part of the sham.

Edited April 8, 2008 by oreodontist

[Wilber]

The Olympics don't belong to the Chinese and for all its faults it is one of the few things in this world which bring countries together. I agree with the protests in principle but the tactics being used exhibit the same mentality as what these people are protesting against. We are right so anything we do is justified.

[M.Dancer]

agree with the protests in principle but the tactics being used exhibit the same mentality as what these people are protesting against.

I don't think protests or even lawful assembly is a right in China. I'm pretty sure civil disobedience is frowned upon too....

[margrace]

Is there a link to this off topic story or is this just another thing you overheard?

How could there be link to this story, I get sick and tired of you calling me a liar. You know when people accuse others of things they probably are guilty of it themselves. No the two ladies sat at my kitchen table Sunday and told me this and I know its true because I also heard it from the town clerk.

I also was a victim of the man who threatened them. Well what goes around comes around and he died a rather horrible death of cancer. Although I think God will get me for that I must say I had little sympathy for him.

Edited April 8, 2008 by margrace

[Wilber]

I don't think protests or even lawful assembly is a right in China. I'm pretty sure civil disobedience is frowned upon too....

So what, that doesn't mean everyone else has the right to resort to the same tactics in order to express their opinions or impose their beliefs. I don't approve of what is going on in Tibet or China's record when it comes to civil rights but what is going on in Paris and London gives those people no credibility in my mind because they are showing themselves just as likely to step on the rights of others in order to advance their own agendas.

There is civil disobedience Gandhi style and there is thuggery in the name of civil disobedience which is much of what we are seeing here.

[M.Dancer]

How could there be link to this story, I get sick and tired of you calling me a liar. You know when people accuse others of things they probably are guilty of it themselves. No the two ladies sat at my kitchen table Sunday and told me this and I know its true because I also heard it from the town clerk.

I also was a victim of the man who threatened them. Well what goes around comes around and he died a rather horrible death of cancer. Although I think God will get me for that I must say I had little sympathy for him.

I'm sure anecdotal stories are fine with the ladies who lunch but passing them off as "truth" on a discussion site where no one can verify if what you are saying is in fact what took place is a bit much. I have never called you a liar...confused and addle brained, prone to listening to her taoster tell tall tales....and with a tendency to embellish upon reality...

I expect an apology.

Unless of course you intend to claim you over heard me talking to the deli clerk....

[M.Dancer]

just as likely to step on the rights of others in order to advance their own agendas.

There is civil disobedience Gandhi style and there is thuggery in the name of civil disobedience which is much of what we are seeing here.

I didn't see any thuggery in the Paris demo.

[Wilber]

I didn't see any thuggery in the Paris demo.

Really? I would call trying to physically interfere with someone carrying the flame, assault. I do think they should get rid of the Chinese minders however and let the individual countries take care of security. They can do nothing but inflame the situation regardless of how they behave.

[M.Dancer]

Really? I would call trying to physically interfere with someone carrying the flame, assault. I do think they should get rid of the Chinese minders however and let the individual countries take care of security. They can do nothing but inflame the situation regardless of how they behave.

As long as all they were doing was "physically interfering" and not fighting, hitting or punching then it is civil disobediance.

...butyou got to admit, using a fire extinguisher was classic guerilla street theatre...

[Wilber]

As long as all they were doing was "physically interfering" and not fighting, hitting or punching then it is civil disobediance.

...butyou got to admit, using a fire extinguisher was classic guerilla street theatre...

I don't think they were trying to break through in order to give the carrier a kiss. If someone runs up to you on the street and grabs something out of your hand, I don't think you will view it as civil disobedience.

I agree about the extinguisher but what does it accomplish. The Olympics and its symbols do not belong to China so how does attacking them reflect on China? Frankly these are not the kind of people I would want protesting for me, their tactics remind me too much of Vancouver's Anti Poverty Committee.

[guyser]

II agree about the extinguisher but what does it accomplish.

Find me a newspaper or TV station the world over that did not report on this. When your search is exhausted you will have your answer.

It accomplished what they set out to do. Bring awareness.

[oreodontist]

Find me a newspaper or TV station the world over that did not report on this. When your search is exhausted you will have your answer.

It accomplished what they set out to do. Bring awareness.

Actually there is: the newspapers in China. Their state TV had 20 seconds of live telecast on the Flame until it was cut by the authorities. The only avenue open to impact that dastardly regime is shame and embarrassment. This flame fiasco is exactly what needs to be put in the face of the authoritarian regime.

No, sports and the world singing Kumbaya does not trump the need to not let this regime crush fellow human beings.

[xul]

But it's mainly funny.

Here we have China so desperately wanting to be accepted as a modern functioning nation that they host the Olympics where 1000's of cameras and millions of eye's are turned towards them.......

....and they get humiliated by old men and monks for their effort.

If all tyrannies were humiliated so.

I think you have misunderstood the intention of the topic I raised here. Just think about why I put the post here, in Political Philosophy not the Rest of World.

For another one:

a. If I posted here,"Lamaism is the best way to pull down Communism." I think there would be a lot of people would disagree with me. Someone may think I'm stupid or ignorant, but I did not get humiliated for my effort of expressing my ideology.

b. If there was a communist he posted here to response me, "Communism is best way to instead of Lamaism." I think there would be also a lot of people would disagree him. Someone may think he is stupid or ignorant, but he also did not get humiliated for his effort of expressing his ideology.

c. If I was very angry to his opinion, so I sent up some computer virus to wreck his post by making his post to mess of stupid words which everyone could laught, I think it would be me whom got humiliated not him.

d. If he adopted the same way to react my deeds, I think he also got humiliated.

e. If he or I got so angry for I or he was a member of the forum and used the forum to express my or his opinion, so he or I wreched the posts of everyone who posted in the forum, I think it would be the most humiliated scandal in the history of this forum and the humiliation belonged to him or me, not others.

Edited April 8, 2008 by xul

[M.Dancer]

I think you have misunderstood the intention of the topic I raised here. Just think about why I put the post here, in Political Philosophy not the Rest of World.

For another one:

a. If I posted here,"Lamaism is the best way to pull down Communism." I think there would be a lot of people would disagree with me. Someone may think I'm stupid or ignorant, but I did not get humiliated for my effort of expressing my ideology.

b. If there was a communist he posted here to response me, "Communism is best way to instead of Lamaism." I think there would be also a lot of people would disagree him. Someone may think he is stupid or ignorant, but he also did not get humiliated for his effort of expressing his ideology.

c. If I was very angry to his opinion, so I sent up some computer virus to wreck his post by making his post to mess of stupid words which everyone could laught, I think it would be me whom got humiliated not him.

d. If he adopted the same way to react my deeds, I think he also got humiliated.

e. If he or I got so angry for I or he was a member of the forum and used the forum to express my or his opinion, so he or I wreched the posts of everyone who posted in the forum, I think it would be the most humiliated scandal in the history of this forum and the humiliation belonged to him or me, not others.

Not sure if I'm following you....are you suggesting that protest and civil disobediance is not the way to shame China?

Not following the wrecking bit....nothing has been wrecked....except maybe China's hope that the rest of the world will forget for a few moments that the communist regime is a ruthless killer.

[Wilber]

Find me a newspaper or TV station the world over that did not report on this. When your search is exhausted you will have your answer.

It accomplished what they set out to do. Bring awareness.

Maybe but when I consider the worthiness of a cause, I take into the consideration the actions of the protesters. Things like hanging banners from the Golden Gate Bridge can get my attention in a positive way. Assaulting people on the street in a country where you have a right to peaceful protest doesn't. In my view that hurts a cause.

[M.Dancer]

Maybe but when I consider the worthiness of a cause, I take into the consideration the actions of the protesters. Things like hanging banners from the Golden Gate Bridge can get my attention in a positive way. Assaulting people on the street in a country where you have a right to peaceful protest doesn't. In my view that hurts a cause.

This is the only place where I have read about anybody (other than Tibetans getting killed by Chinese) bieng assaulted.Fromthe sounds of it it was a human barricade that the organizers decided not to cross and some resourfull protesters trying to either extinguih the flame or steal it.

Big deal. Funny, but no big reason to be morally outraged.

[Wilber]

This is the only place where I have read about anybody (other than Tibetans getting killed by Chinese) bieng assaulted.Fromthe sounds of it it was a human barricade that the organizers decided not to cross and some resourfull protesters trying to either extinguih the flame or steal it.

Big deal. Funny, but no big reason to be morally outraged.

Who's morally outraged? There are just some things I respect and some I don't. I don't respect the attitude that because of what the Chinese may be doing in Tibet, others are entitled to do whatever they want in response. We have the right to protest but when I feel people are abusing that right, they are likely to lose my support. That's all.

[M.Dancer]

Well if you claim some one was assaulted then I assume you are outraged. And rightfully so.

I just haven't seen any evidence that anyone was assaulted.

[Wilber]

Well if you claim some one was assaulted then I assume you are outraged. And rightfully so.

I just haven't seen any evidence that anyone was assaulted.

Outraged. An over used word if there ever was one. Don't particularly like it myself.