Tory MP claims his fingernails are clean

[BubberMiley]

I have seen too many cases where it seems to be learned. Like abuse, social rejecxtion and so on.

So given the right environment, you too could be converted? Interesting. Personally, I don't think there is any way I could ever be interested in someone of my own gender.

[scribblet]

The great Tommy Douglas on homosexuality

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54wQBgZ02KM.../Tommy-Who.html

[BubberMiley]

The great Tommy Douglas on homosexuality

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54wQBgZ02KM.../Tommy-Who.html

I always thought he said worse things than that. To say we should be sympathetic to homosexuals way back then shows he was far ahead of the CPCers who say they're disease spreaders who are not like the rest of us.

[Wild Bill]

This event occurred 16 years ago in a non-CPC, non-Canadian Alliance, non-Reform context which seems to be overlooked here, deliberately of course.

Consistency should demand that the NDP append to such revelations a footnote of apology for some pretty awful things uttered by Saint Tommy and other luminaries of the CCF/NDP faith.

There are a LOT of things being deliberately overlooked!

Let's apply Occam's Razor. 16 years ago the MP in question was your typical arrogant young smartass pup. Sadly, many of us go through that stage in life. Some never leave it.

It's doubtful if Tom K had ever met a homosexual or much less cared! He was simply mouthing off at some function that happened to be filmed. Like most young smartasses, he seemed to think he was funny because his words were shocking, rather than showing true wit.

Fast forward all these years and he's a mature man who I'm sure has matured greatly from that smartass of so long ago. There was a time when Trudeau drove around on a motorcycle wearing a German WWI helmet, after all. It's not so much that he has changed his views as he actually has developed some concrete ones! Any of us over 30 are well aware of the shallowness of adolescence.

What Tommy K should have said in his apology was this: "I was a young smartass a**hole! Now I've grown up and learned better. Perhaps some of you might do the same!"

This is all being blown out of proportion by Opposition desperation. Yet clip after clip on the news shows most Canadians are treating the issue for what it is, rather than what the Opposition wants it to be.

Want to see some REAL villification? I have a gay friend who is a conservative! Not socially of course but in pretty well everything else. He's treated like dirt in some quarters for not being at least Liberal, if not NDP. He manages a sales crew well and no one gives a damn that he's gay.

I pick on him for being a drummer but then, I pick on ALL drummers!

I wish we could just get the election underway and get past all this crap. We always have a certain amount of this lowbrow muck to wade through but lately it's been getting a bit too much.

[MontyBurns]

IMO, attractiveness (what you find attractive) is built-in... For example, it makes no matter that my first husband hit me, that event did not "turn me into" a homosexual.

I am still attracted to male human beings.

For a man, da' penis must rise -- so if seeing an attractive man makes your penis rise, then you are homosexual. If seeing an attractive woman makes your penis rise then you are heterosexual.

Take the case of Ann Heche for example. She was first hetero, then went gay with Ellen and is now hetero again. See, like Tommy Douglas said, it is mental illness.

[scribblet]

There are a LOT of things being deliberately overlooked!

I wish we could just get the election underway and get past all this crap. We always have a certain amount of this lowbrow muck to wade through but lately it's been getting a bit too much.

I agree, particularly on this forum (others too I guess) where some people have a vested interest in keeping the muckraking going as it suits their agenda I suppose.

[Drea]

Lesbianism has been thought of as "erotic" by many men and not frowned upon (by men) in the same way as two gay men are.

So women switching back and forth is not thought of as a "big deal" in our culture.

This is the (unfair) reality of it.

[Drea]

But if mental illness is passed on genetically (not environmentally induced) then I am correct in believing that if homosexuals are left to be homosexuals (non-breeders) then this "mental-illness gay gene" will eventually die off.

[BubberMiley]

I agree, particularly on this forum (others too I guess) where some people have a vested interest in keeping the muckraking going as it suits their agenda I suppose.

Yes, why is it that certain posters feel it is necessary to be so contemptuous of their political opponents?

[MontyBurns]

But if mental illness is passed on genetically (not environmentally induced) then I am correct in believing that if homosexuals are left to be homosexuals (non-breeders) then this "mental-illness gay gene" will eventually die off.

Yes, but they should be given identifiable markings such as a blue hat to wear until the genes are gone.

[Drea]

Yes, but they should be given identifiable markings such as a blue hat to wear until the genes are gone.

why?

So folks like you won't mistake 'em for women and accidentally breed with 'em? (just kidding)

Monty, I'm not seeing where you're coming from... why do they need special "identifiers"? Heteros don't "accidentally" bed homosexuals...

[Wild Bill]

Yes, why is it that certain posters feel it is necessary to be so contemptuous of their political opponents?

Contemptuous? Perhaps, but not of opponents personally. Rather contemptuous of some opponents' tactics, especially when they practice them over and over and over and over...

When someone will excuse an action by one of their heroes yet condemn the same action by an opponent as a crime against the universe...

When someone will take a trivial issue and stretch it to the nth degree, trying to make something stick that isn't really sticky...

If a Tory used such a tactic I'd deplore it just as strongly. However, it would be impossible to deny that there are a few posters on this board that tend to be Liberal or NDP who constantly use such tactics. From careful study I've come to believe that only a couple are doing this deliberately, as a conscious tactic. Most of them seem genuinely incapable of understanding what they are doing! Their politics are their religion. Their guys are saints and all others are devils.

It gets kinda same-y after a while...

[MontyBurns]

Monty, I'm not seeing where you're coming from... why do they need special "identifiers"? ...

So you can stay away from them. Can't be too careful.

[jdobbin]

Here is what pollster Nik Nanos says on the whole thing.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

Prime Minister Stephen Harper must make it clear he rejects a anti-gay slur uttered by one of his MPs if he doesn't want to see Conservative party support drop, says a pollster.

Nik Nanos, president of Nanos Research, told CTV's Question Period on Sunday that the Conservatives have retained support so far by shifting the focus away from social issues.

"Think about the last couple of years where the focus has been: On Afghanistan, the economy, a transparency in government and not a lot on social issues," he said. "That's why Canadians have been able to hold on and that's what makes (Lukiwski) a very important issue."

But the emergence of a 1991 videotape containing some nasty anti-gay slurs by Saskatchewan MP Thomas Lukiwski, then an organizer for the provincial Progressive Conservative party, has put the focus back on the social side -- at least temporarily.

"The Prime Minister needs to deal with this issue directly and try to put it behind him as soon as possible," Nanos said. "I think the Prime Minister has to personally say, 'I don't accept these comments, I repudiate them and it's not part of the party or the government or where its mind is at on a lot of these issues right now."

If Harper reacts strongly, the opposition will be blunted.

If he doesn't, the social conservativism that makes Canadians wary will be sharpened.

Given what we see here from those on the right wing, it raises all the alarm bells about their level of tolerance.

[WIP]

Here's my take on the future of homosexuality:

In the past, homosexuals have had to deny their sexuality and as a result many of them married and had children thus passing on the homosexual gene.

Today, homosexuals are not forced to have children -- and the rightwingers will love this part -- in a few generations, with no homosexuals masquerading a heteros and breeding, the homosexual gene will just die out.

So the rightwingers should be encouraging gays to come out, not to masqerade, but to be themselves in homosexual relationships and stop the homosexual gene from reproducing.

By forcing gays into hetero relationships, the rightwing has inadvertently made the gay gene continue.

Exactly right! I posted a link yesterday from a gay group that tracks all of the gay Republicans that have inadvertently compromised their secret gay lifestyles. Add to that all of the gay pastors, ministers and priests and you start wondering if they are the heart and soul of conservatism!

What I find tragic is that if you read the propaganda they were exposed to in their youth, it becomes apparent that they are so filled with self-hatred that they hide their true feelings and try to masquerade as regular, heterosexual guys. The former chairman of the National Association of Evangelicals - Ted Haggard, was a case in point! Here was a 50 year old married man who spent his life in the ministry preaching that homosexuality is a sin, brainwashing future generations of gay-oriented kids, and all the while he was having secret liasons with a gay prostitute! How safe was that? What if he got AIDS and infected his unsuspecting wife?

Many nations that practise the kind of hatred and violence against gays that some of the idiots on this forum advocate, such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Iran, which murder homosexuals in the most barbaric manner possible - public stoning - covertly practise gay sex because of the ridiculous Islamic rules against gender-mixing. Just as with Western social conservatives, homosexuality is fine as long as you don't get caught!

[MontyBurns]

Here is what pollster Nik Nanos says on the whole thing.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

If Harper reacts strongly, the opposition will be blunted.

If he doesn't, the social conservativism that makes Canadians wary will be sharpened.

Given what we see here from those on the right wing, it raises all the alarm bells about their level of tolerance.

Social issues aren't that important anyway.

[August1991]

But if mental illness is passed on genetically (not environmentally induced) then I am correct in believing that if homosexuals are left to be homosexuals (non-breeders) then this "mental-illness gay gene" will eventually die off.

Drea, your idea is completely ridiculous not the least because it shows a complete ignorance of how genetics work.

Have you thought of the possibility that, assuming there is such a thing as a "gay gene", it is passed on by the mother to her male offspring?

[WIP]

Lesbianism has been thought of as "erotic" by many men and not frowned upon (by men) in the same way as two gay men are.

So women switching back and forth is not thought of as a "big deal" in our culture.

This is the (unfair) reality of it.

It is unfair, especially when the same guys who are queer-bashing are trying to talk their girlfriends into doing lesbo-make-out scenes at parties. From what I'm hearing these days, a lot of teenage girls are feeling pressured into doing these "youtube moments" by the guys gathered around them. And these are usually the same type of guys who will pull over their car and attack anybody downtown who they think walks a little effeminate! What a world!

[MontyBurns]

Exactly right! I posted a link yesterday from a gay group that ...

You have connections to gay groups. I'd be afraid to tell anyone that.

[BubberMiley]

And these are usually the same type of guys who will pull over their car and attack anybody downtown who they think walks a little effeminate!

According to some on this board, that's just normal behaviour. Teenagers being teenagers.

[Drea]

Drea, your idea is completely ridiculous not the least because it shows a complete ignorance of how genetics work.

Have you thought of the possibility that, assuming there is such a thing as a "gay gene", it is passed on by the mother to her male offspring?

Hey, we were having good conversation until you decide to butt your redneck head in...

So here goes: if the woman carrying the alleged gay gene is homosexual then she won't be breeding will she?

Of course women are not "really" homosexual are they? When 2 women get together you consider it a spectacle for you to get off on -- fun fun fun! But when 2 men get together you get all disgusted... hmmm...

[WIP]

Drea, your idea is completely ridiculous not the least because it shows a complete ignorance of how genetics work.

Have you thought of the possibility that, assuming there is such a thing as a "gay gene", it is passed on by the mother to her male offspring?

From what I have read so far, there is not likely a single gay gene to be found, but there still may be several possible genetic triggers. This study which shows a definite link between birth order and the likelihood of being gay demonstrates an obvious physical connection to homosexuality. http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20060701/fob1.asp

Neuroscientists are discovering that these kind of issues are not a matter of nature or nurture - instead, they work together. Genes are expressed by environmental factors, so that even what are considered genetic disorders, such as schizophrenia, are still dependent on environmental factors when determining the odds that a child of a schizophrenic will inherit the illness.

It's only those who are driven by religion, who are going to contend that something like homosexuality is a lifestyle choice that can be cured through psychotherapy! The groups like James Dobson's Exodus International, that advocate this garbage have nothing to show for their efforts.

[MontyBurns]

So here goes: if the woman carrying the alleged gay gene is homosexual then she won't be breeding will she?

Maybe the gene skips generations.

Like I said, better safe than sorry.

[WIP]

You have connections to gay groups. I'd be afraid to tell anyone that.

Yes! My connection is the Google search engine that I use to do keyword searches. But, since I used to think and talk just like you, I now speak up when I hear people talking this crap in public. And that is my main condemnation of this slimey politician from Saskatchewan: if he really has changed his attitudes since that video was posted, my question is still what has he said in defence of gays in the intervening 16 years?

[Drea]

It's only those who are driven by religion, who are going to contend that something like homosexuality is a lifestyle choice that can be cured through psychotherapy! The groups like James Dobson's Exodus International, that advocate this garbage have nothing to show for their efforts.

Funny how those people can believe they are inherently (made that way) attracted to the opposite sex, but beleive that homosexuality is a "choice".

If homosexuality is a "choice", then heterosexuality is also a "choice" -- so I can assume that many heterosexuals simply (or maybe they agonize over it) make a "choice" to supress their attraction to those of the same gender.

I don't know if there is a "gay gene" or not. But I seem to be inherently attracted to those of the opposite sex, so I assume that homosexual attractiveness is also inherent (rather than "learned" behaviour).