Fitna The Movie

[jbg]

Your anti-American rant of the day?

[WIP]

Your anti-American rant of the day?

It's not anti-American! It's reality! You might want to check it out some day.

[Qwerty]

I wonder why Muslim's are up in arms over this?

There own leaders are the ones saying these things.

They must be true, right?

These aren't non muslims saying these terrible things but are muslims themselves that are saying these things.

This should be broadcast on the CBC or some other national network. What is everyone afraid of? That people might start to realize the truth?

I hope our own liberalism isn't our eventual undoing.

Edited April 15, 2008 by Qwerty

[JB Globe]

I am deeply offended by this post.

You called this hack-job a movie.

This offends me as a filmmaker.

It's nothing more than an amateurish collage of youtube clips.

Even the producer of the Van Gogh film "Submission" thinks it's trash, I believe he called it "more of an incoherent diatribe than a case against Islam" - if even other anti-Islamists are saying it's crap, you know it's crap.

I also read that the MP is being sued - apparently he showed a picture of a Dutch rapper in place of what was supposed to be Van Gogh's killer, and that rapper is now suing for defamation of character.

[Mr.Canada]

Wow, this is a great movie. I've seen it a while ago but not for a long time. Scary for sure to think this is where we're headed as a nation.

[jbg]

And do you see how your countrymen have been manipulated by that appeal to patriotic nationalism? Remember, nationalism is an emotional response, not a rational decision! So when a nation is inspired to go to war and a weak-kneed Congress is cowed into giving the President a blank cheque to carry out foreign wars because they are afraid of appearing unpatriotic, then flag-waving patriotic feelings lead to dangerous impulsive decisions!

How long will America be able to do the chest-thumping "we're no. !"

I am sorry you don't respect your own country more. Really sorry (link).

[BC_chick]

I am sorry you don't respect your own country more. Really sorry (link).

WIP was referring to Congress members who voted for a war in which they did not believe because they did not want to look unpatriotic. Are you saying that agreeing to unjust wars out of the fear of looking unpatriotic is "respectful" of a country?

[jbg]

WIP was referring to Congress members who voted for a war in which they did not believe because they did not want to look unpatriotic. Are you saying that agreeing to unjust wars out of the fear of looking unpatriotic is "respectful" of a country?

No. I never want anyone to vote against their conscience. However, foreign and military matters are, by necessity, primarily within the Presidential ambit since the circus is not in town Congress is not in session 24/7/365. Also, a Commander-in-Chief role is by its nature a solitary rather than collective role.

[JB Globe]

Wow, this is a great movie. I've seen it a while ago but not for a long time. Scary for sure to think this is where we're headed as a nation.

^^^ - Classic case of someone who identifies with the subject matter (in this case Islamophobia) of a piece of media (I refuse to call it a film) so strongly they're willing to overlook the fact that it's technically terrible, and even worse when it comes to narrative.

[Mr.Canada]

^^^ - Classic case of someone who identifies with the subject matter (in this case Islamophobia) of a piece of media (I refuse to call it a film) so strongly they're willing to overlook the fact that it's technically terrible, and even worse when it comes to narrative.

Are you saying that the facts in the film are false? Well prove it. Don't just make blanket statements. Every nation that has 10%+ muslim population FROM IMMIGRATION has problems.

[JB Globe]

Are you saying that the facts in the film are false?

I'm saying that the facts in the film are taken so grossly out of context that the film can only be described as blatantly manipulative.

Example:

Every nation that has 10%+ muslim population FROM IMMIGRATION has problems.

Every nation that has +10% immigration also has no official policy on integration, meaning - the government has taken a hands-off approach to helping immigrants adjust to their new society, no wonder there have been problems. And that's exactly why Christian immigrants from France's former colonies in Africa are just as marginalized as immigrants from France's former Muslim-majority colonies. Youth from both communities were torching cars in the 2005 riots, after all - so it becomes clear right away that when all the facts are on the table, this clearly isn't just an issue of "those bloody Muslims"

But to include those facts would cloud the manipulative argument of the film - which is that Muslims are the new Jews: responsible for all of societies' problems. I honestly believe this film was designed to function as the 2008 version of "The Eternal Jew"

And please note - the idiot who made the collage (that's really what it is):

- didn't interview any experts on Islam

- Made liberal use of unidentified individuals making claims such as "The mosque will be part of the system of the government of Holland"

- Made liberal use of unidentified Imams making controversial statements

Basically, the film is a blatant hack-job - taking the worst of Islam, and leaving out everything else. As a filmmaker I can guarantee you that you can make such a hack-job on ANY subject if you're willing to be THAT unethical and manipulative.

I mean really, at least if you were defending Mark Stein column I would take your efforts more seriously. But defending this piece of garbage? Really?

[Mr.Canada]

I'm saying that the facts in the film are taken so grossly out of context that the film can only be described as blatantly manipulative.

Example:

Every nation that has +10% immigration also has no official policy on integration, meaning - the government has taken a hands-off approach to helping immigrants adjust to their new society, no wonder there have been problems. And that's exactly why Christian immigrants from France's former colonies in Africa are just as marginalized as immigrants from France's former Muslim-majority colonies. Youth from both communities were torching cars in the 2005 riots, after all - so it becomes clear right away that when all the facts are on the table, this clearly isn't just an issue of "those bloody Muslims"

But to include those facts would cloud the manipulative argument of the film - which is that Muslims are the new Jews: responsible for all of societies' problems. I honestly believe this film was designed to function as the 2008 version of "The Eternal Jew"

And please note - the idiot who made the collage (that's really what it is):

- didn't interview any experts on Islam

- Made liberal use of unidentified individuals making claims such as "The mosque will be part of the system of the government of Holland"

- Made liberal use of unidentified Imams making controversial statements

Basically, the film is a blatant hack-job - taking the worst of Islam, and leaving out everything else. As a filmmaker I can guarantee you that you can make such a hack-job on ANY subject if you're willing to be THAT unethical and manipulative.

I mean really, at least if you were defending Mark Stein column I would take your efforts more seriously. But defending this piece of garbage? Really?

Where are all the outspoken Muslims who are moderates? They cannot be found.

White liberals defend them. Where are the voices of reason in the Muslim faith? Muslims are putting out death threats, hardly moderate.

Moderate Muslims should be screaming about these Islamofascits but there is none because Islam has been hijacked by terror groups long ago.

[JB Globe]

Where are all the outspoken Muslims who are moderates? They cannot be found.

Where are you looking?

People who usually make the claim that "where are the moderate Muslims?" usually have not done their homework or are looking in the wrong places. For example, you'll never see a moderate Muslim commentator in Frontpage Magazine or World Net Daily and that's because 1 - Both sites are anti-Islamic and moderates would not publish there, and 2 - Both sites have a vetted interest in portraying Islam as monolithic, to admit that there is a moderate majority within Islam by allowing moderates who are critical of extremists to write on the websites would hurt their entire position on the religion, which of course is their bread and butter for drawing readers.

If you look up Daniel Pipe's books on Amazon, then you look at the "books recommended by other readers" list, you're going to get other non-Muslim or ex-Muslim critics of the "Islam is evil" variety, and not moderate commentators who are actually part of, and engaged with the Muslim community and its reform.

Also, the news media deserves some blame because of its tenancy to sensationalize. And what's more sensational than positioning a conservative or fundamentalist Islamic commentator as "the voice of Islam" and then on the other half of the screen having a non-Muslim anti-Islamic commentator as the "voice of the West" and watching these two nutjobs duke it out while ignoring the massive moderate centre.

The media is quick to note when Osama Bin Laden issues a fatwa (which, according to Islamic practice, he doesn't have the authority to make) but doesn't even broadcast such important information such as when the most influencial cleric of Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim country and 3rd largest democracy, issued a fatwa against Bin Laden and Al Qaeda calling them enemies of Islam.

Here are some places for you to get started:

http://www.muslimunion.ca/

http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/

And two commentators for you to start with:

Reza Aslan

Tariq Ramadan

- Both have many clips on youtube from debates and appearances as commentators on news shows.

Muslims are putting out death threats, hardly moderate.

I think you need more context to go with this statement. And that context is that death threats are not uncommon throughout the world, especially in under-developed states. For example - how many death threats do you think are issued in Colombia? El Salvador? Sri Lanka? Also, it's not as if most of these death threats have any traction outside of the sphere of influence of the Imam that issued them - or in many cases, the militant that issued them (ie - Bin Laden).

Moderate Muslims should be screaming about these Islamofascits but there is none because Islam has been hijacked by terror groups long ago.

The only real Islamic movement that justifies terrorism in any real way is Wahhabism, and that is such an extreme minority movement - I fail to see where Islam as a whole has been hijacked by terror groups as a whole. That doesn't mean you don't worry about terrorism in Islam, it's just that your solutions have to be in-step with the reality of the problem. You can't be approaching the situation from your perspective of "Islam is a terrorist religion because it's been hijacked by terrorist" because the solutions you come up with as a result of that approach are going to be not only completely disproportionate to the actual scope of the problem - they're also going to totally fail, and they have been failing.

[AngusThermopyle]

I fail to see where Islam as a whole has been hijacked by terror groups as a whole.

Then you should go and rent the movie I was talking about because thats exactly what the moderate Palestinians whom they interviewed stated had happened. I tend to believe them as they are actually Palestinian and living the very subject that we're talking about.

[White Doors]

Then you should go and rent the movie I was talking about because thats exactly what the moderate Palestinians whom they interviewed stated had happened. I tend to believe them as they are actually Palestinian and living the very subject that we're talking about.

He may be worried that it would change his utopian PC outlook on life.

Personally, when someone tells me they are going to change things to be their way or the highway, I tend to take them for their word. I think it would be nieve to do anything else.

[JB Globe]

Then you should go and rent the movie I was talking about because thats exactly what the moderate Palestinians whom they interviewed stated had happened. I tend to believe them as they are actually Palestinian and living the very subject that we're talking about.

Which movie is this? I searched this thread for your posts and you didn't mention it.

[JB Globe]

He may be worried that it would change his utopian PC outlook on life.

Personally, when someone tells me they are going to change things to be their way or the highway, I tend to take them for their word. I think it would be nieve to do anything else.

If you really want to have at me - go ahead and present an actual argument, not a rant but an argument, and I'll respond.

These snarky little jabs aren't really worth my time.

Edited November 5, 2008 by JB Globe

[White Doors]

If you really want to have at me - go ahead and present an actual argument, not a rant but an argument, and I'll respond.

These snarky little jabs aren't really worth my time.

Yet you still take time to respond

[AngusThermopyle]

Which movie is this? I searched this thread for your posts and you didn't mention it.

The movie is called "Suicide Killers".

They went to Israel and Palestine to interview people regarding the conflict. They interviewed average people, bombers both captive and free, familly members, both Israeli and Palestinian, and just about anyone else they could find.

They didn't draw any conclusions or make any judgements, just presented the stories as told to them. It's fascinating and disturbing when you find out what really motivates these people and what they really think in their own words.

[JB Globe]

The movie is called "Suicide Killers".

They went to Israel and Palestine to interview people regarding the conflict. They interviewed average people, bombers both captive and free, familly members, both Israeli and Palestinian, and just about anyone else they could find.

They didn't draw any conclusions or make any judgements, just presented the stories as told to them. It's fascinating and disturbing when you find out what really motivates these people and what they really think in their own words.

It looks interesting, I'll try and find it.

I would caution however using Palestinians opinions on the situation in their homeland as a means of explaining the situation across the Muslim world. It seems as though they're talking in the film specifically about Palestine (and they're right to say they've been hijacked by extremists).

As I said earlier I don't see any sort of indication that beyond Wahhabism there is any sort of major, organized infiltration of extremist elements in the Muslim world.

[JB Globe]

Yet you still take time to respond

I was giving you the opportunity to actually have an intelligent conversation with me.

Unfortunately you seem to prefer writing 1-3 sentence pot-shots, which I find boring, immature and stupid.

Please don't waste your time by trying to write any more of these in response to my posts - I'm just going to ignore them.

You can go ahead and write a zinger in response to this if you want, but I won't be returning to this post so I won't be reading it.

[AngusThermopyle]

As I said earlier I don't see any sort of indication that beyond Wahhabism there is any sort of major, organized infiltration of extremist elements in the Muslim world.

No its not a majority sort of problem or even close to a 50% sort of problem, currently it is still rather limited. Palestine being the most immediate example that comes to mind.

However one can't look at this issue in a sense of absolutes, that is to say, even though currently the situation with extremists is at this lower level it will not change. Somalia is the most recent example. In the past the problems were all caused by warring factions of warlords. Now the problems are being caused by extremist groups taking power, an extreme ideology spreading across the country. As can be seen in the recent stoning of the young girl who was raped.

So on the one hand I don't disagree with you, currently extremism is not all that widespread. On the other hand I don't think that is a good reason to disregard the potential and growing threat that exremism represents.

[Argus]

The only real Islamic movement that justifies terrorism in any real way is Wahhabism, and that is such an extreme minority movement - I fail to see where Islam as a whole has been hijacked by terror groups as a whole.

Would it surprise you to learn almost all the Imams in Canada practice Whabism, and almost all the imams in the US and UK, and almost all those in Euope as well? Large and growing numbers of imams through the world are Wahabists because the Saudi government generously funds Islamic schools and mosques throughout the world - spending billions of dollars on them in exchange for them getting to supply the imam.

[JB Globe]

However one can't look at this issue in a sense of absolutes, that is to say, even though currently the situation with extremists is at this lower level it will not change.

Of course we should take the problem seriously, but I think we can both agree that the solutions should be in line with the scale of the problem, especially here in Canada - where vastly over-stating the problem and making out the Muslim community to be extremist in general will actually make the situation worse, because the community will become insular and thereby more difficult to engage and work with.

Somalia is the most recent example. In the past the problems were all caused by warring factions of warlords. Now the problems are being caused by extremist groups taking power, an extreme ideology spreading across the country. As can be seen in the recent stoning of the young girl who was raped.

I agree that the Muslim Courts Union adds yet another layer of problems to Somalia, but I will say that we can't simply leave failed states to their own devices and only intervene when a militant Islamic group takes control or presents a threat (ie - Afghanistan). It's hard for me to see, how the MCU is any worse in the grand scheme of things in that country. After all, it's not as if the warlords didn't employ child soldiers, and weren't above executing children - just by the gun and not by public stoning.

And if we are to intervene in these places we have to take the time to plan properly and fully understand the situation on the ground. That's one of the reasons the intervention in Somalia failed the first time - the US didn't understand the dynamics of the conflict and ended up becoming another faction rather than peacekeepers.

[JB Globe]

Would it surprise you to learn almost all the Imams in Canada practice Whabism, and almost all the imams in the US and UK, and almost all those in Euope as well?

It would surprise me, as I'm currently only aware of one Mosque in Mississauga that practices Wahhabism.

I've never seen any evidence to suggest it's "almost all" - do you have any?