Louis Riel Day

[geoffrey]

Things like Loius Riel Day help to remind us of our past intolerance

We should be intolerant of extremists and terrorists.

Do you think 200 years from now the US will celebrate a day for the 9/11 hijackers based on the fact that some in the States were intolerant of these people?

Riel was involved in a major slaughter of police officers. You don't celebrate that. Ever. If he was a democratic dissident, then by all means, but he resorted to violence to acheive his means and that's inappropriate in a civilized society. And it absolutely should not be celebrated.

[BubberMiley]

If he was a democratic dissident, then by all means, but he resorted to violence to acheive his means and that's inappropriate in a civilized society. And it absolutely should not be celebrated.

I don't think you are aware of what happened at all. Canada sent an army from Ontario to fight and kill the Metis. The Metis fought back, and he's the one who resorted to violence? Revision is easy when you don't have any facts to go by, I suppose.

[blueblood]

Actually, Manitoba would probably have become a U.S. state without Riel to negotiate Manitoba into Canada. With the bridge of MB part of the U.S., the rest of western Canada would have likely become part of the States too.

Not that that would necessarily have been a bad thing. It's just probably what would have happened.

Wrong, the Mounties came and set up forts all along the former Northwest Territores (Sask and Alberta) to prevent that from happening, all that would happen is another fort.

Without the Great March west, it was figured that the Americans would get farther North than the 49th.

[blueblood]

I don't think you are aware of what happened at all. Canada sent an army from Ontario to fight and kill the Metis. The Metis fought back, and he's the one who resorted to violence? Revision is easy when you don't have any facts to go by, I suppose.

Why did the army come, because Louis Riel executed Thomas Scott who disagreed with him. Riel fired the first shot. When you not only set up a provisional government/claim sovereignty from Canada and start executing people who disagree with you, you bet your ass the army is coming.

Then there is Riel's little adventure in Batoche, where the Mounties were ambushed and killed.

[DrGreenthumb]

I wonder if some day we will have a Marc Emery day to commemorate all the wrongs done against the people in the cannabis culture? I hope that someday the absolutely non-violent freedom fighting of Marc Emery will be celebrated. It would sure be nice if the state sanctioned intolerance of our people and culture came to an end during my lifetime.

We spent Louis Riel day having a rock band party. 22 kids singing, drummin and playing guitar for 6 hours straight. I am proud that our province has chosen to celebrate a freedom fighter, and I hope that we continue to honour those that push back against the state to protect the liberties of the people.

I sometimes wonder if the cannabis people will have to resort to violence before we will have our freedom. I have heard many say that freedom is not free, but for us resorting to violence to achieve our goals would be sinking to the lowlife level of the prohibitionists.

[jdobbin]

Wrong, the Mounties came and set up forts all along the former Northwest Territores (Sask and Alberta) to prevent that from happening, all that would happen is another fort.

Without the Great March west, it was figured that the Americans would get farther North than the 49th.

That happened in 1874. In 1870, there was a great chance that territory that became Manitoba could have gone to the U.S. The Metis were the ones who pushed for Manitoba's entry into confederation.

[kimmy]

Why not have James Roszko day? He's an inspiration to low lifes everywhere.

Roszko was fighting for his grow-op.

Riel was fighting for a group that was being shafted by a political process that gave them no consideration and no voice.

If it was their land, where was their deeds? It was also HBC land sold to the gov't.

This sort of attitude is exactly why a rebellion was needed.

-k

[kimmy]

There are a number of moments I think back on as being significant in shaping my view of our country.

One of them occurred when I was quite young, and I was playing cards ("Go Fish," I believe) with my dad, with CBC radio chattering away in the background. On the radio, there was some sort of discussion about Louis Riel, and of course I knew nothing of the subject. I asked dad what they were talking about, and dad explained that Louis Riel was a hero to the French, and the Metis, and to western Canadians.

"Then why are they saying bad things about him then?" I asked.

He replied: "Because the textbooks are written in Ontario."

That moment is still very clear in my mind. Something just clicked into place, and I "got it." It wasn't about Louis Riel specifically, it was about Canada, and the disconnect between regions.

-k

{Keepin' it Riel!}

[blueblood]

Roszko was fighting for his grow-op.

Riel was fighting for a group that was being shafted by a political process that gave them no consideration and no voice.

This sort of attitude is exactly why a rebellion was needed.

-k

Look, Riel was a convicted traitor in a fair trial and was responsible for the deaths of mounties/soldiers. Celebrating someone who is responsible for that is ridiculous.

How many American soldiers and policemen were Martin Luther King responsible for killing?

I'm happy he gets his day, he fought for the rights of black people in a responsible, brave, and dignified way which in the end made a huge difference. Did Martin Luther King execute someone who disagreed with him?

HBC owned the land sold it to Canada, and the gov't of Canada at the day has any right to do with it as they see fit. Riel was also an elected MP, he shafted himself by not going to Ottawa and making his point there.

That happened in 1874. In 1870, there was a great chance that territory that became Manitoba could have gone to the U.S. The Metis were the ones who pushed for Manitoba's entry into confederation

There was also a great chance that Alberta and Sask could have as well.

Why would they stop at Manitoba?

If Riel wouldn't have executed Thomas Scott and was not responsible for the deaths of those mounties/soldiers (which helps in that he was a convicted traitor), didn't set up in Batoche with his wannabe country, then he would be a hero and rightly so, but the fact of the matter is that he did those things and celebrating someone who does that is revolting and I equate it to going to Regina and dancing on the graves of those mounties who gave their lives bringing this criminal to justice.

[jdobbin]

Look, Riel was a convicted traitor in a fair trial and was responsible for the deaths of mounties/soldiers. Celebrating someone who is responsible for that is ridiculous.

Forces from Canada tried to take over the territory of Manitoba and forces the Metis off their lands. Not Canada's finest hour.

There was also a great chance that Alberta and Sask could have as well.

Why would they stop at Manitoba?

Manitoba was the key to the west. Eventually, the Canadian government came to recognize this and Manitoba became a province.

If Riel wouldn't have executed Thomas Scott and was not responsible for the deaths of those mounties/soldiers (which helps in that he was a convicted traitor), didn't set up in Batoche with his wannabe country, then he would be a hero and rightly so, but the fact of the matter is that he did those things and celebrating someone who does that is revolting and I equate it to going to Regina and dancing on the graves of those mounties who gave their lives bringing this criminal to justice.

You keep saying that if only Riel had taken his seat in Parliament. You keep ignoring the fact that there was a bounty on his head and that the forces from Ontario had sent lynch mobs for him.

As I said, your view is one from Ontario.

[ricochet]

I don't think it's neccessary to view Riel in a positive or negative way in order to agree he had an enormous influence on this province's history - and Canada's - and naming a day after him is one way of keeping that memory alive.

As for Riel's methods, I don't think it's fair to judge people simply on the means they employed in achieving what they saw as a desirable end. In a situation for so much was at stake for the residents of the Red River Valley, and given the context of the times in which ''justice'' was far harsher than today, I'm willing to overlook those misdeeds if there's a larger moral story to be told.

I do support what Riel stood for, namely his belief that the residents of the northwest not be colonized and controlled by outsiders. The people of the Red River Valley had a right to remain independent, whatever the wishes were of people in the East who were essentially foreigners. Louis Riel was elected three times to the house of commons because he opposed this injustice.

[blueblood]

Forces from Canada tried to take over the territory of Manitoba and forces the Metis off their lands. Not Canada's finest hour.

Manitoba was the key to the west. Eventually, the Canadian government came to recognize this and Manitoba became a province.

You keep saying that if only Riel had taken his seat in Parliament. You keep ignoring the fact that there was a bounty on his head and that the forces from Ontario had sent lynch mobs for him.

As I said, your view is one from Ontario.

Except that Manitoba was already the property of Canada purchased from the HBC. If Canada wants to put soldiers there because some madman is executing his political opponents, that's not only their right, it's their responsibility. If your from Winnipeg and you feel that they got the short end of the stick so bad, put your money where your mouth is and cough up your house, I know some Metis families who would like a house in Winnipeg on the cheap.

That last point is pure speculation.

If you want to honor somebody who kills mounties to achieve political goals that's your cross to bear. Martin Luther King didn't kill any police officers or soldiers to get his agenda through, he gets his day and rightly so.

Was Riel an important figure in Canadian history, yes he was. Does he deserve a day, no. There are other more famous people buried in Winnipeg who deserve it.

Edited February 19, 2008 by blueblood

[jdobbin]

Except that Manitoba was already the property of Canada purchased from the HBC. If Canada wants to put soldiers there because some madman is executing his political opponents, that's not only their right, it's their responsibility. If your from Winnipeg and you feel that they got the short end of the stick so bad, put your money where your mouth is and cough up your house, I know some Metis families who would like a house in Winnipeg on the cheap.

It was not the property of Canada until 1870. The law that was being applied to Riel had no application because Rupert's Land was not part of Canada. The crime you talk about was before Manitoba joined Confederation. You can check that if you want.

It is like your statement that Riel could have taken his seat in Parliament. Show me where he could when he had a bounty on his head.

The rest of your statement seems to be just a diversion in regards to whether Riel was most responsible for Manitoba becoming a province.

That last point is pure speculation.

If you want to honor somebody who kills mounties to achieve political goals that's your cross to bear. Martin Luther King didn't kill any police officers or soldiers to get his agenda through, he gets his day and rightly so.

Was Riel an important figure in Canadian history, yes he was. Does he deserve a day, no. There are other more famous people buried in Winnipeg who deserve it.

Tell me which important people in Manitoba was responsible for Manitoba becoming a province in 1870?

[blueblood]

It was not the property of Canada until 1870. The law that was being applied to Riel had no application because Rupert's Land was not part of Canada. The crime you talk about was before Manitoba joined Confederation. You can check that if you want.

It is like your statement that Riel could have taken his seat in Parliament. Show me where he could when he had a bounty on his head.

The rest of your statement seems to be just a diversion in regards to whether Riel was most responsible for Manitoba becoming a province.

Tell me which important people in Manitoba was responsible for Manitoba becoming a province in 1870?

link

I beg to differ. According to this the land belonged to Canada at the time of Scott's murder.

Riel went and signed his name in the registrar under disguise. He made the trip, he can sit in his seat.

My beef isn't with Riel being a historical figure in the province of Manitoba, which he is. My beef is that we as a civilized society are celebrating someone who is responsible for murdering a political opponent and responsible for the deaths of Canadian soldiers and mounted policemen (which resulted in a conviction of high treason) and unilateraly declared a government not subordinate to the government of Canada.

Sam Steele, who is buried in a cemetary in Winnipeg is far more deserving a day in his memory than a traitor, a murderer, and a mountie killer. The government of Canada is just as responsible for Manitoba becoming a province.

[oreodontist]

I'm just not fond of things named after people. Be it holidays, cities. mountains or whatever.

I'd rather live in a town called 'Thunder Bay' than Victoria and go skiing at 'Kicking horse' than Lake Louise. It feels better camping at 'Glacier' national park than Peter Lougheed Provincial Park.

Riel? Who knows and I can't say in 2008 that I care than much. We have a holiday called Victoria Day and she did exactly what? I'd rather name it after our hamster.

[jdobbin]

I beg to differ. According to this the land belonged to Canada at the time of Scott's murder.

For your link:

"was consummated in 1870 "

The transfer was not official until money was paid and Manitoba a province. The crime you say Canada found him guilty of was on land that was not officially Canadian.

Riel went and signed his name in the registrar under disguise. He made the trip, he can sit in his seat.

My beef isn't with Riel being a historical figure in the province of Manitoba, which he is. My beef is that we as a civilized society are celebrating someone who is responsible for murdering a political opponent and responsible for the deaths of Canadian soldiers and mounted policemen (which resulted in a conviction of high treason) and unilateraly declared a government not subordinate to the government of Canada.

As mentioned, there was no government in Manitoba when he declared one. It belonged to the HBC until 1870. This is from your own link. Don't believe it? Look it up again and again.

As for people with histories measured in blood, it happens all the time.

Riel is not uncontroversial but it was a choice that recognized his place as a founding father of Manitoba.

Sam Steele, who is buried in a cemetary in Winnipeg is far more deserving a day in his memory than a traitor, a murderer, and a mountie killer. The government of Canada is just as responsible for Manitoba becoming a province.

I think giving credit to Canada as founding father of Manitoba is a lie aimed squarely at the Metis.

[Wild Bill]

For your link:

"was consummated in 1870 "

The transfer was not official until money was paid and Manitoba a province. The crime you say Canada found him guilty of was on land that was not officially Canadian.

As mentioned, there was no government in Manitoba when he declared one. It belonged to the HBC until 1870. This is from your own link. Don't believe it? Look it up again and again.

As for people with histories measured in blood, it happens all the time.

Riel is not uncontroversial but it was a choice that recognized his place as a founding father of Manitoba.

I think giving credit to Canada as founding father of Manitoba is a lie aimed squarely at the Metis.

I'm missing something here. Are you implying that Riel was RIGHT to execute those mounties? That he was either perfectly justified or left with no other choice?

Couldn't he have cobbled up a jail? Maybe used them as hostages for a prisoner swap or something?

I mean, execution is not a casual act that should be dismissed in a cavalier fashion. I'm from Ontario and yet I would be equally outraged at any unnecessary killing anywhere in Canada.

Or is it just that Manitoba had a beef with Ottawa so Riel becomes a hero and anything he did including executions is just fine as long as he killed only Ottawa representatives?

Maybe I'm just too much of an old hippy. I can shoot my own dog if he goes rabid and I can accept capital punishment as an option in clear cases but I just get uncomfortable with casual killing being dismissed lightly for "patriotic" reasons.

[jdobbin]

I'm missing something here. Are you implying that Riel was RIGHT to execute those mounties? That he was either perfectly justified or left with no other choice?

Couldn't he have cobbled up a jail? Maybe used them as hostages for a prisoner swap or something?

What execution of mounties are you referring to?

I mean, execution is not a casual act that should be dismissed in a cavalier fashion. I'm from Ontario and yet I would be equally outraged at any unnecessary killing anywhere in Canada.

Or is it just that Manitoba had a beef with Ottawa so Riel becomes a hero and anything he did including executions is just fine as long as he killed only Ottawa representatives?

Maybe I'm just too much of an old hippy. I can shoot my own dog if he goes rabid and I can accept capital punishment as an option in clear cases but I just get uncomfortable with casual killing being dismissed lightly for "patriotic" reasons.

The only execution I'm aware of was Scott and that was on land that the Canadian government didn't have authority on until after the execution.

The other casualties you are referring to happened in another province fifteen years later and Riel was found guilty of treason and then denied the right to be tried in a correct court in Winnipeg.

[blueblood]

For your link:

"was consummated in 1870 "

The transfer was not official until money was paid and Manitoba a province. The crime you say Canada found him guilty of was on land that was not officially Canadian.

As mentioned, there was no government in Manitoba when he declared one. It belonged to the HBC until 1870. This is from your own link. Don't believe it? Look it up again and again.

As for people with histories measured in blood, it happens all the time.

Riel is not uncontroversial but it was a choice that recognized his place as a founding father of Manitoba.

I think giving credit to Canada as founding father of Manitoba is a lie aimed squarely at the Metis.

The time when Canada took over is up for debate then, it was transferred in 1869, they just paid later like people do with other things. I think it happened in 1869 and the link says so, you think it happened in 1870 and the link says so, but if the money was paid before March 4th, then the debate is over.

Canada let Manitoba become a province, I'll let my point stand.

I find it funny when left wing minded people who denounce violence by gov't forces find it perfectly acceptable to commit violence to soldiers and policemen. Celebrating Louis Riel day is a slap in the face to the RCMP and the Canadian Army. Manitoba and the West in fact would also be a different place had the NWMP and Army not came over here, you and I might not be around for that matter of fact.

link

But you want to celebrate a man who was responsible for the deaths of some of these brave people.

I'm missing something here. Are you implying that Riel was RIGHT to execute those mounties? That he was either perfectly justified or left with no other choice?

Couldn't he have cobbled up a jail? Maybe used them as hostages for a prisoner swap or something?

I mean, execution is not a casual act that should be dismissed in a cavalier fashion. I'm from Ontario and yet I would be equally outraged at any unnecessary killing anywhere in Canada.

Or is it just that Manitoba had a beef with Ottawa so Riel becomes a hero and anything he did including executions is just fine as long as he killed only Ottawa representatives?

Maybe I'm just too much of an old hippy. I can shoot my own dog if he goes rabid and I can accept capital punishment as an option in clear cases but I just get uncomfortable with casual killing being dismissed lightly for "patriotic" reasons.

The Mounties were ambushed/killed in battle, along with Canadian soldiers. Pulling a stunt like that gets you charged with high treason among other things.

Martin Luther King didn't resort to killing.

Riel's trial in Regina is more fair than the one he would have got in Winnipeg

Edited February 20, 2008 by blueblood

[jdobbin]

The time when Canada took over is up for debate then, it was transferred in 1869, they just paid later like people do with other things. I think it happened in 1869 and the link says so, you think it happened in 1870 and the link says so, but if the money was paid before March 4th, then the debate is over.

Canada took possession of Manitoba after the last payment in 1870. That was when the paperwork was signed. Authority over the land was in flux to say the least.

Canada let Manitoba become a province, I'll let my point stand.

Manitoba joined Confederation as province. Canada was perfectly content to leave the province as a territory were it not for the Metis.

I find it funny when left wing minded people who denounce violence by gov't forces find it perfectly acceptable to commit violence to soldiers and policemen. Celebrating Louis Riel day is a slap in the face to the RCMP and the Canadian Army. Manitoba and the West in fact would also be a different place had the NWMP and Army not came over here, you and I might not be around for that matter of fact.

But you want to celebrate a man who was responsible for the deaths of some of these brave people.

The Mounties were ambushed/killed in battle, along with Canadian soldiers. Pulling a stunt like that gets you charged with high treason among other things.

Martin Luther King didn't resort to killing.

Riel's trial in Regina is more fair than the one he would have got in Winnipeg

There was nothing fair about Riel's trial. According to the law of Canada, he should have been tried in Winnipeg. You can read up on that if you like as well.

I don't hear anyone from the military and RCMP complaining about Riel Day today.

Riel was controversial, no doubt. He was also responsible for Manitoba becoming a province. It wasn't just a unilateral decision as some right wingers might think.

Guess you will have to find a new political part to vote for in Manitoba since they all supported Riel Day when it was voted on.

Edited February 20, 2008 by jdobbin

[blueblood]

Canada took possession of Manitoba after the last payment in 1870. That was when the paperwork was signed. Authority over the land was in flux to say the least.

Manitoba joined Confederation as province. Canada was perfectly content to leave the province as a territory were it not for the Metis.

There was nothing fair about Riel's trial. According to the law of Canada, he should have been tried in Winnipeg. You can read up on that if you like as well.

I don't hear anyone from the military and RCMP complaining about Riel Day today.

Riel was controversial, no doubt. He was also responsible for Manitoba becoming a province. It wasn't just a unilateral decision as some right wingers might think.

Guess you will have to find a new political part to vote for in Manitoba since they all supported Riel Day when it was voted on.

So it's only a fair trial if the jury is stacked with Riel supporters???

I'll hold my nose the same way you do when Liberal MP David McGuinty suggests a 10% ethanol deal.

It's sad when we have been taught that it's acceptable to kill mounties/soldiers to make a political point, and god forbid you disagree with it, because you'd need that mentallity to win an election in Manitoba.

[jdobbin]

So it's only a fair trial if the jury is stacked with Riel supporters???

It was against Canadian laws that you have stated that you are in full support of. The trial by Canadian law was supposed to be in Winnipeg. Instead, they stacked a jury with non-Riel supporters in a jurisdiction that was not supposed to responsible for that type of trial. Go figure.

I'll hold my nose the same way you do when Liberal MP David McGuinty suggests a 10% ethanol deal.

I don't have to hold my nose at all on McGuinty because I'm not from Ontario.

It's sad when we have been taught that it's acceptable to kill mounties/soldiers to make a political point, and god forbid you disagree with it, because you'd need that mentallity to win an election in Manitoba.

It's sad that some people will probably hold the view that Riel was not responsible for Manitoba getting into confederation in 1870 and want to somehow deny it.