Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian

[Leafless]

It's origin is the New Testament but it's lack of reference to Jesus of Nazareth means it does not have to be confined to Christianity in usage.

Nothing is confined to Christianity in usage.

A Jew or Muslim or anyone can walk into a Catholic church or any other Christian church and say the Lords prayer or any prayer.

What your saying means nothing and is totally irrelevant to those who follow the Christian religion and their prayers.

Edited March 8, 2008 by Leafless

[charter.rights]

It's origin is the New Testament but it's lack of reference to Jesus of Nazareth means it does not have to be confined to Christianity in usage.

The entire New Testament belongs to Christians. Jews and Muslims don't include it in their Bible and Koran. Saying the Lord's Prayer is an act of confirmation of being a Christian. So you are unequivocally wrong.

[cybercoma]

One could easily interpret the concept of "God" as the creator in whatever form it is, and that is clearly distinct from religion and the church. Although many believe that excludes atheists.

What about those who are vastly opposed to creationism. There are people who do not at all believe in a creator, nor God and The Pledge makes those people outsiders. It's unfortunate that children in school are made to recite passages that reinforce the belief in mystical entities, not in a fictional manner but as though it were fact.

[maldon_road]

Nothing is confined to Christianity in usage.

That's the very point I was making.

[Leafless]

That's the very point I was making.

That you are the great pretender?

[Rue]

That you are the great pretender?

Great Pretender was a hit song wasn't it?

No I think the only point the "Great Pretender" was making is that if we engage in such terms we try make them

universal in application since technically governments serve all people and so should remain neutral with expressions of faith-its not the expression of faith that is in question-just words that might exclude certain citizens.

Imagine if we replaced all references to Christ in your prayers to the name Lindsay Lohan. Would you feel comfortable with that? Of course not. ( I would because I am convinced she is the Messiah...er at least this week)

Its just a matter of finding language all can feel comfortable with. I myself like the word CREATOR instead of "God" and for agnostics and atheists, we can add the words "Human collective".

Of course the above may be considered too politically appropriate so I say replace all references to the almighty with Lindsay Lohan on a trial basis for one year.

She has nice freckles and she means well. It will give her a reason to stay sobre too.

[Fain]

http://www.evilbible.com/Top_Ten_List.htm

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

ring any bells???

I think it'd be insightful for people to understand that Kuzzadd also posted in another forum called "Politics Canada" until he was banned for extreme anti-americanism, personal attacks on forum members and racist attacks on Christians and "white" culture.

I'm amazed to see the moderators of this forum allowed him to post here

[Rue]

I think it'd be insightful for people to understand that Kuzzadd also posted in another forum called "Politics Canada" until he was banned for extreme anti-americanism, personal attacks on forum members and racist attacks on Christians and "white" culture.

I'm amazed to see the moderators of this forum allowed him to post here

Because he has not gone over the line. Its not easy drawing that line. There's a fine line between things we find unacceptable and censoring freedom of speech. It comes down to a judgement call sometimes. I may not agree with where the line is drawn sometimes, but I respect how difficult it is to draw the line and our emotions sometimes cloud our ability to draw that line.

I would prefer to debate someone whenever possible then censor them. I appreciate that sometimes it becomes impossible to allow words to continue because the words become too abusive and can only incite hurtful words back.

How to keep people on track is the tough exercise. I do not envy the moderators on this task.

As for you moderators, shut up. You are wrong. I always wanted to say that.

Edited March 25, 2008 by Rue

[AngusThermopyle]

Because he has not gone over the line.

Boy! Was I ever off base on that one. I thought Kuzzad was female.

[maldon_road]

Because he has not gone over the line.

That is so obvious you wonder why it needs stating. He (or she) should be judged by the actions in this forum, not somewhere else.

[FFI Poster]

<<http://www.evilbible.com/Top_Ten_List.htm

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

ring any bells???>>

May I suggest that the original poster stop by

http://faithfreedom.org/forum

and check posts pertaining to ISLAM IS A CULT by Ali Sina

FYI for those of you who do not know about ALI SINA, ALI knows a whole lot about Islam (which is why he was smart enough to

renounce Islam and that pedophile prophet MUHAMMAD, age 54, who had a very strong feelings for Aisha, age 9, and married her at a tender young age). BTW way if MUHAMMAD were to be alive today for sure his DNA would be deposited in the World Perv Bank.

[WIP]

May I suggest that the original poster stop by

http://faithfreedom.org/forum

and check posts pertaining to ISLAM IS A CULT by Ali Sina

FYI for those of you who do not know about ALI SINA, ALI knows a whole lot about Islam (which is why he was smart enough to

renounce Islam and that pedophile prophet MUHAMMAD, age 54, who had a very strong feelings for Aisha, age 9, and married her at a tender young age). BTW way if MUHAMMAD were to be alive today for sure his DNA would be deposited in the World Perv Bank.

You forgot to include that Ali Sina not only renounced Islam, he renounced all religion. The only criticism I have of his writing is that he's adopted the same myth that Robert Spencer of Jihadwatch uses: Islam is unreformable, unlike Christianity and Judaism, which were bad in the past, but they've become nice and tolerant in the modern age.............Bullocks! If you take a hard look at American-style fundamentalism, which is promoting blind nationalism, fighting against laws guaranteeing personal freedoms and rights to privacy, fighting the teaching of evolution in the classroom and attacking scientists as enemies of religion.........I'm thinking that we are a generation and a severe recession away from a return of the kind of Christianity that motivated Jews and Gypsies to flee to the Muslim territories in North Africa as the lesser of two evils.

Ali Sina has bought into the dangerous idea that Islam has to be destroyed and the people converted to Christianity or other religions( he doesn't seem to believe that freethought is an option for some reason). I don't see how such a strategy will convince Muslims to abandon their religion! An aggressive attempt to impose another religion will make it even more determined to resist change. This kind of thinking would result in a religious war fought with nuclear weapons.

[michele]

http://www.evilbible.com/Top_Ten_List.htm

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

ring any bells???

Hi Kuzadd,

I think l'm what you call a fundamentalist born again Christian...but l'm really not sure what all that means but l'm willing to take a stab at your list to see if l fall under your interpretation..

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

ring any bells???

Now here you score. There are a lot of people that know more than l about the above mentioned things...but l know Jesus..Does that count? I'm not trying to be sarcastic...just honest. One of the things l like about Jesus is that as the Son of God he came for simple folks like me. You know...farmers and fisherman...but hey! He didn't leave out the tax collectors either.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

The biggest answer to prayer l've had is that the Lord revealed himself to me.

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

I think all of the sciences are confirming creation..This comes with the computer. Have you seen the THE PRIVILEGED PLANET? http://www.illustramedia.com/tppinfo.htm

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

We are saved by grace through faith. Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness. It's believing in the one God...creator of heaven and earth and the fact that he is constantly calling your name. Abraham believed and through his blood line Christ was birthed as a revelation to mankind of his absolute love. You can reject this free gift offering and spend eternity without it.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

Carbon dating is flawed.

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

Genesis 6

1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

I don't know what a polytheist is but believe in the triune God.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

Sorry..but l have to sorta laugh at how you think l'm outraged.. In fact l do believe in lesser gods and also in I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.

Why risk a good thing?

Edited April 27, 2008 by michele

[WIP]

Hi Kuzadd,

I think l'm what you call a fundamentalist born again Christian...but l'm really not sure what all that means but l'm willing to take a stab at your list to see if l fall under your interpretation..

Now here you score. There are a lot of people that know more than l about the above mentioned things...but l know Jesus..Does that count?

For myself, no, it doesn't count!

What does it mean to know Jesus? If your talking about the "personal relationship with Jesus" that many evangelicals refer to, this is a subjective experience that cannot be proven to others. If it is more than a personal experience, then someone needs to explain why Christianity is fragmented into hundreds, if not thousands of different sects, all having differing doctrines about salvation, prophecy, ethical rules etc.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic...just honest. One of the things l like about Jesus is that as the Son of God he came for simple folks like me. You know...farmers and fisherman...but hey! He didn't leave out the tax collectors either.The biggest answer to prayer l've had is that the Lord revealed himself to me.

I think all of the sciences are confirming creation..This comes with the computer. Have you seen the THE PRIVILEGED PLANET? http://www.illustramedia.com/tppinfo.htm

I did! Privileged Planet tries to make a case that the Universe is fine-tuned or designed for intelligent life because of the physical constants of our universe are just right to enable the formation of the building blocks of life - especially organic molecules. But, they borrow the "Rare Earth" argument that the Universe is so hostile, that intelligent lifeforms like us would be very rare. So, the more unsuitable our universe is for producing intelligent life, the more likely it is that our universe was "designed" to produce intelligent life by a "designer". It begs the question: if intelligent life can not evolve from lower forms of life, but has to be designed, then why does the designer require a fine-tuned universe in the first place? If the designer is all-powerful, he could just make the kind of creatures he wanted to regardless of the type of universe.

And, the designer in Privileged Planet is an incredibly wasteful engineer if he made a universe with billions of galaxies, each containing more than a billion star systems, only to populate a select few with intelligent creatures! A human designer would not design a factory so that it would only occasionally, if ever, produce a car, or a computer, or whatever the purpose is. It would be optimized to produce the largest possible amount of products possible.

So, I'm not convinced! We do not know if other sets of physical constants could have led to a universe with intelligent life. And that makes it impossible to set the probabilities that the fine tuning argument is based on. We do not know how many other possible universes there are, and how many would have life and how many would be failures. Physicists who are working from two different directions to develop a quantum theory of gravity to understand the conditions at the very beginning of our universe find that our universe would be one in an infinite stream of universes: http://seedmagazine.com/news/2007/07/a_cyclic_universe.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaotic_inflation

We are saved by grace through faith. Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness. It's believing in the one God...creator of heaven and earth and the fact that he is constantly calling your name. Abraham believed and through his blood line Christ was birthed as a revelation to mankind of his absolute love. You can reject this free gift offering and spend eternity without it.

In other words, burn in hell for not agreeing with the right belief! Is it really an ethical system that allows a murderer or rapist etc. into heaven if they make a death-bed conversion, while someone could lead an exemplary life and be sent to hell for not believing the story!

7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. [/color]

If the flood story was true, it would be the greatest mass genocide in history! If, for the sake of argument, it was true that everybody was a sinner besides Noah, that still doesn't excuse murdering all of the children who hadn't come of age and had the opportunity to make a choice.

8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

I don't know what a polytheist is but believe in the triune God.

1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Sorry..but l have to sorta laugh at how you think l'm outraged.. In fact l do believe in lesser gods and also in I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.

Why risk a good thing?

The idea that the God of the Universe would be a vengeful god and command his chosen people to wage wars to ethnically cleanse the land he gave to them is one thing, but why does the creator of the universe have to be jealous of other gods?

[michele]

Hi WIP

I didn't think anybody would answer me...

What does it mean to know Jesus? Everything! In the context you and l are refering to here... as a subjective experience...Oh yeah....very subjective.

It has happened in main stages with me. Initially when l was 8 years old. (No l didn't come from a Christian home) Something happened in my life that made me cry out and God heard. I just didn't know he heard. I'll spare you the details of my life and fast forward to the time l was forced to take prayer seriously. That was it...that was the key. Broken humility. And here's the secret WIP...He wants us to pray so he can answer us... and reveal himself. But there's no sense trying to trick him...after all he is God..(hears all, knows all. sees all).

I've often wondered why it's subjective myself...I guess because he isn't interested in proving himself. He's interested in faith...believing...Us first...or..me first. Do l believe? Forget about proving it to others. Do you need them to pat you on the back? It will never happen you know.

Here's what l like about him revealing himself. Are you a mathematician? He's got a special revelation for you. Are you a gardener like myself? He used my greenhouse to teach me. I'd be sitting there digging in the dirt and all of a sudden l would get something. This was huge for me in understanding how God speaks...through our everyday experience. The amazing thing l've come to realize is that it's on going. But he's the eye and ear opener.

I like the concrete word. The Bible. It's tangible. I can test what l think he's saying to 'me' against what's in that book.

I was an astrologer for years before l turned around. I liked astrology because it was tangible. Something l could touch...not just somebodies word..but something l could prove with numbers...However it led down a darkening road and something was lurking in the shadows l wasn't interested in. l'd read many books but not the Bible. I chucked my ephemeris and in 1979 l began a truly eye opening journey...

You're right about Christianity being divided up into all kinds of segments. I don't know how to answer you. It's true and it's awful. It's distressing for me. But because l have personal assurance and an understanding of grace and an understanding of how he treats people that are truly seeking him l can rest in that assurance. I can't prove it to you. But l've got good stories..And anyway..my stories are my stories. Each man or women needs their own.

God's made provision for mankind. He came to earth as a man so we could understand his nature. He's coming back. Don't you see the signs everywhere? The Bible tells us that in the last days the earth would be worn out like and old garment...Much evidence there huh? The next would be Israel, the biggest sign.. (more proof)

Fulfilled prophecy is probably the best evidence for a thinking mind. But each one still needs their own personal experience... subjective though it may be. Then the outward things like fulfilled prophecy are icing on the cake.

You know l could go on and on with this but l'll leave it alone.

As far as God wiping out mankind..yeah...wow huh. That's a whole story. I'll talk about it if you want but it wouldn't matter if you don't believe. He told Saul to kill all the Amalikites. For good reason (but this is historical research). Saul didn't do it...that race survived and is still with us in fragments today. Jew haters...Haman the descendent of Agag the King of the Amalikites. But this is a tangent..enough said.

You said something about the Privileged Planet topic...I have thoughts but l don't have time now..later maybe.

And, the designer in Privileged Planet is an incredibly wasteful engineer if he made a universe with billions of galaxies, each containing more than a billion star systems, only to populate a select few with intelligent creatures! A human designer would not design a factory so that it would only occasionally, if ever, produce a car, or a computer, or whatever the purpose is. It would be optimized to produce the largest possible amount of products possible.

Edited April 28, 2008 by michele

[michele]

WIP says:

In other words, burn in hell for not agreeing with the right belief! Is it really an ethical system that allows a murderer or rapist etc. into heaven if they make a death-bed conversion, while someone could lead an exemplary life and be sent to hell for not believing the story!

It's hard to address these points if you can't believe that God provided the Bible as an inspired inerrant message to the world. But just for arguments sake l will address this statement in part. The Old Testament teaches us about God's character..

In Micah 3:1-12 it teaches that;

The Lord will not answer those who practice evil, nor guide those who proclaim falsehood and he won't protect those who promote injustice. He will even hide his face when they cry out... He's done this with Israel...our example.

ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God.

We are saved by grace through faith and not by works least any man should boast.

Edited April 28, 2008 by michele

[GostHacked]

Islam was invented 600 years after Christianity. Think of Muslims being what Christians were like in the 16th century - Reformation, Inquisition, execution of clergy (the English countryside was strewn with RC priests swinging from the gallows), torture.

This struck me.

All religions have been invented by man. Stop blaming 'god'. Blame those who do deeds in his name.

Michele

I like the concrete word. The Bible. It's tangible. I can test what l think he's saying to 'me' against what's in that book.

Eventhough the 'book' was written by man. The 'book' was handed down generation to generation in the early years by word of mouth. All story tellers tweak the story a bit for their purposes. So the bible has been 'purple monkey dishwasher'd' through the eras. Then when it finnaly got to be written down, the story has changed enough that it is no longer the original story or message.

Man is the reason why religion exists. Not god.

I was an astrologer for years before l turned around. I liked astrology because it was tangible.

I find astrology just as tangeble as a bible. To me it is all guesswork and speculations.

Carbon dating is flawed.

Carbon dating is flawed, but so far it is the best tool science has come up with to test the age of something. For the most part it is accurate and the technique is sound. It is not perfect, like much science, as we expand our knowledge, we continue to grow and understand our world and universe around us. Science is exploration and is never 100%. The more we find out, the more questions we have. And those questions are too complext to have a simple answer like 'god wills it that way'. We can prove easily with science how things work in this universe. Science and math are universal.

We can compare the simple belief in god and the bible,

to

Refining the sciences throughout the years.

Science can be proven wrong. It has happened. But at least the evidence was there to prove a science wrong. Our understanding of it grows because we investigate and compare and see if it holds up to the current model. There is no evidence of anykind to prove or disprove a god. Science may one day prove that a god does or does not exists, but as it stands, there is not enough scientific evidence to even consider for an experiment of that form.

Consider our understanding of science in the last 150 years.

Electricity.

Magnetism.

Gravity.

Constant of the speed of light.

Nuclear energy

Atoms, electrons, quarks, ect ect.

Computers, networking, ect ect.

God has given none of this to us. We found out about it for ourselves. I personally do not seen religion and science mixing together properly anytime soon.

Both religion and creationism are philosophies and should be taught as such. Religion and creationism can be speculated and debated endlessly without ever proving things concretly.

Science is the process of ultimately proving or dissproving a concept. You will come to a conclusion in due time. Experiments take place to see what the results are. We can pitch science against almost everything in this universe, except 'god'.

At an early age I called out to god. Wondered if he was there. I was unsure of how he would manifest for me. He never did. I prayers, inquiries went unanswered. At that point I knew I had to find out everything on my own. I found comfort in that, because no one else is going to make things happen for me, but me. So at that time I started to put faith in myself, not a god. I believed in myself for that is all I have, and all I need.

[AngusThermopyle]

It's hard to address these points if you can't believe that God provided the Bible

God did not provide the bible. Men provided the bible, a whole bunch of men in a whole bunch of places over a whole bunch of time. They also lifted parts of far more ancient religions to include in this book.

[WIP]

Hi WIP

I didn't think anybody would answer me...

Welcome aboard michele! There are always a few people who like to talk about religion and can't wait to open it up every now and then. The reason these discussions are generally frowned upon is because most people are very protective about beliefs that form their basis for understanding the world. But then again, some people can't even talk about politics or sports without getting emotional and hurling abuse at people who disagree with them.

What does it mean to know Jesus? Everything! In the context you and l are refering to here... as a subjective experience...Oh yeah....very subjective.

It has happened in main stages with me. Initially when l was 8 years old. (No l didn't come from a Christian home) Something happened in my life that made me cry out and God heard. I just didn't know he heard. I'll spare you the details of my life and fast forward to the time l was forced to take prayer seriously. That was it...that was the key. Broken humility. And here's the secret WIP...He wants us to pray so he can answer us... and reveal himself. But there's no sense trying to trick him...after all he is God..(hears all, knows all. sees all).

I have heard this answer before. The problem I have with it is that it is based on circular logic. If I pray, I have to believe already that there is someone I can't see who is listening to the prayer. I can't pray for God to reveal himself to me unless I already believe in him.

Also, this method could be used to prove any other god. I'll bet Muslims who are losing faith are also told to pray to Allah and their prayers will be answered.

I've often wondered why it's subjective myself...I guess because he isn't interested in proving himself. He's interested in faith...believing...Us first...or..me first. Do l believe? Forget about proving it to others. Do you need them to pat you on the back? It will never happen you know.

Here's what l like about him revealing himself. Are you a mathematician? He's got a special revelation for you. Are you a gardener like myself? He used my greenhouse to teach me. I'd be sitting there digging in the dirt and all of a sudden l would get something. This was huge for me in understanding how God speaks...through our everyday experience. The amazing thing l've come to realize is that it's on going. But he's the eye and ear opener.

Actually, I don't feel what's often called the God-shaped hole in my life. I want my beliefs to be based on things that I am sure are accurate. I've changed my mind on a number of subjects and issues, and I don't mind having gaps in my knowledge. I was thinking about this with the previous reference to "Privileged Planet;" The astrophysicist who produced the movie confirms most of his religious beliefs because of his research into the finely tuned properties of the Universe. He has made the leap to the conclusion that this fine tuning had to have an external designer, and could not have happened through yet undiscovered processes. I'm fine with leaving the question of how these conditions were arrived at and how everything unfolded as a mystery until cosmologists are able to provide conclusive answers. There have been many gaps in our understanding that have been filled in by the scientific process, I don't see any reason why "how the universe began" can't be one of them also.

I like the concrete word. The Bible. It's tangible. I can test what l think he's saying to 'me' against what's in that book.

Unfortunately, I found many contradictions.

I was an astrologer for years before l turned around. I liked astrology because it was tangible. Something l could touch...not just somebodies word..but something l could prove with numbers...However it led down a darkening road and something was lurking in the shadows l wasn't interested in. l'd read many books but not the Bible. I chucked my ephemeris and in 1979 l began a truly eye opening journey...

You really lost me on this one! I don't see anything tangible about astrology. It's a study of the stars and planets that was formed during a time before real knowledge about gravity, nucleosynthesis, relativity etc., was able to provide a better understanding of the heavens. For all serious investigators, astronomy and cosmology replaced astrology in the same way that chemistry and physics replaced alchemy.

You're right about Christianity being divided up into all kinds of segments. I don't know how to answer you. It's true and it's awful. It's distressing for me. But because l have personal assurance and an understanding of grace and an understanding of how he treats people that are truly seeking him l can rest in that assurance. I can't prove it to you. But l've got good stories..And anyway..my stories are my stories. Each man or women needs their own.

Essentially, this is what is really important! If your understanding of Christianity provides meaning and makes your life better than it was before, then nobody can take it away from you. I'm married to a Catholic, and we've been married for 20 years. I tried taking catechism classes years ago and joining the church, but I just couldn't go through it. We tried compromise churches, but it worked out that she went back to her Catholic Church and I went back to sleeping in on Sunday morning. The only friction we experienced was when our son decided he didn't want to go through confirmation when he was turning 13. But she eventually agreed that if he had thought about it enough to want to opt out and choose his own beliefs, then it would not be productive to try to force him to become a Catholic.

It's where religion moves to the public arena when the problems begin. People are basing their judgements on issues like stem-cell research, abortion, gay marriage etc. on their personal religious beliefs, but they refuse to allow the reasons for their opinions to be scrutinized.

God's made provision for mankind. He came to earth as a man so we could understand his nature. He's coming back. Don't you see the signs everywhere? The Bible tells us that in the last days the earth would be worn out like and old garment...Much evidence there huh? The next would be Israel, the biggest sign.. (more proof)

Boy, do I ever see the signs! But I don't see the dire straits the world is in today as being a good thing and a fulfillment of prophecy. The prophecies in Matthew, Thessalonians, Revelation etc., were not written for our time! Those first century disciples were told that Christ would return while some were still living.

The big danger of apocalyptic belief today is that it can encourage a wreckless disregard for real dangers. I don't like the thought of men with access to nuclear weapons anxiously awaiting the Apocalypse.

Fulfilled prophecy is probably the best evidence for a thinking mind. But each one still needs their own personal experience... subjective though it may be. Then the outward things like fulfilled prophecy are icing on the cake.

You know l could go on and on with this but l'll leave it alone.

As far as God wiping out mankind..yeah...wow huh. That's a whole story. I'll talk about it if you want but it wouldn't matter if you don't believe. He told Saul to kill all the Amalikites. For good reason (but this is historical research). Saul didn't do it...that race survived and is still with us in fragments today. Jew haters...Haman the descendent of Agag the King of the Amalikites. But this is a tangent..enough said.

Wow! I'm surprised you mentioned the Amalekites. This is a good example of the barbarism advocated and practised in the Old Testament. Samuel tells Saul to kill all the men, women, children and livestock. That would qualify as genocide in my book.

[sharkman]

A hint, WIP. She's not trying to use logic so analyzing using logic doesn't do anything.

Also, though I'll stay on the sidelines on this one, I would like to ask on what basis you feel the prophecies in Revelation were not for the end times?(Whether this is our time or not I'll leave out of the discussion)

Edited April 29, 2008 by sharkman

[jbg]

A hint, WIP. She's not trying to use logic so analyzing using logic doesn't do anything.

Also, though I'll stay on the sidelines on this one, I would like to ask on what basis you feel the prophecies in Revelation were not for the end times?(Whether this is our time or not I'll leave out of the discussion)

Next WIP will want to know if you practice dispensationalism, replacement theology or proctological Islam.

[WIP]

A hint, WIP. She's not trying to use logic so analyzing using logic doesn't do anything.

I know! Michele is trying to relate that her key evidence for her beliefs is based on experience, not external empirical evidence. My point is that it is subjective evidence and it may be valid for the person who has been "born again," but it doesn't tell me as an outsider, whether it is valid or imagined.

Also, though I'll stay on the sidelines on this one, I would like to ask on what basis you feel the prophecies in Revelation were not for the end times?(Whether this is our time or not I'll leave out of the discussion)

The prophecies are continually recycled with each generation. Every age has had people proclaiming the end was near. But many New Testament writers believed that Jesus would return soon, before the last of them had died:

Matthew: 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew: 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mark: 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Romans: 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

And the Revelation was also written for the people living in the !st Century, not today! They could not openly condemn the Roman Empire or the Emperor, so the Revelation uses symbolic allegories such as Babylon = Rome, and the Beast = Caesar Nero. This is the traditional interpretation generally accepted by the Catholic Church:

The seven heads of the beast are seven emperors. Five of them the Seer says are fallen. They are Augustus Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero. The year of Nero's death is A.D. 68. The Seer goes on to say "One is", namely Vespasian, A.D. 70-79. He is the sixth emperor. The seventh, we are told by the Seer, "is not yet come. But when he comes his reign will be short". Titus is meant, who reigned but two years (79-81). The eighth emperor is Domitian (81-96). Of him the Seer has something very peculiar to say. He is identified with the beast. He is described as the one that "was and is not and shall come up out of the bottomless pit" (17:8).

Thus the contemporaries of the Seer believed Nero to be alive and expected his return. The Seer either shared their belief or utilized it for his own purpose.

The ten horns are commonly explained as the vassal rulers under the supremacy of Rome. They are described as kings (basileis), here to be taken in a wider sense, that they are not real kings, but received power to rule with the beast. Their power, moreover, is but for one hour, signifying its short duration and instability (17:17). The Seer has marked the beast with the number 666. His purpose was that by this number people may know it. He that has understanding, let him count the number of the beast. For it is the number of a man: and his number is six hundred and sixty-six. A human number, i.e. intelligible by the common rules of investigation. We have here an instance of Jewish gematria. Its object is to conceal a name by substituting for it a cipher of equal numerical value to the letters composing it. For a long time interpreters tried to decipher the number 666 by means of the Greek alphabet, e.g. Irenæus, "Adv. Haer.", V, 33. Their efforts have yielded no satisfactory result. Better success has been obtained by using the Hebrew alphabet. Many scholars have come to the conclusion that Nero is meant. For when the name "Nero Caesar" is spelled with Hebrew letters, it yields the cipher 666.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01594b.htm

[michele]

I can't address all the issues because there's too much but l'll pick over them.

Here's one thing l know for sure...belief is generic. You believe period...that

this isn't it. That there's intelligence beyond what we see with our natural eyes.

I see through creation that God is. It's the most basic of all evidence. I think many people believe this but what they have a hard time with is that God is a personal God...and we are created in his image.

WIP said:

Michele is trying to relate that her key evidence for her beliefs is based on experience, not external empirical evidence. My point is that it is subjective evidence and it may be valid for the person who has been "born again," but it doesn't tell me as an outsider, whether it is valid or imagined.

This is correct WIP.. And generally it doesn't come through a contrived man made religious practice. God opens our eyes and ears..... and he closes them. scary..

As far as prophecy and the end being near...Israel is the key end-times sign. There are many other things but this is the most evident.

WIP said:

Wow! I'm surprised you mentioned the Amalekites. This is a good example of the barbarism advocated and practised in the Old Testament. Samuel tells Saul to kill all the men, women, children and livestock. That would qualify as genocide in my book.

I'm not afraid to talk about the Amalekites WIP...And it was God that told Saul through Samuel. Why? Who were they and what were they doing? And remember when answering that "this isn't it". Do you think little children are in hell? Or do you think God took them away from their ugly parents and back to himself?

And what about the days of Noah...and Sodom..what were people doing? Nobody fears God..They tempt him.

Edited April 29, 2008 by michele

[M.Dancer]

Do you think little children are in hell? Or do you think God took them away from their ugly parents and back to himself?

And what about the days of Noah...and Sodom..what were people doing? Nobody fears God..They tempt him.

I think they are dead....and died in a brutal horrific manner. Where they are now isn't a question but an opinion.

[no1important]

Yeah so called christians are a hypocritical bunch. They worship things that do not exist like sheep. very sick and mentally ill if you ask me. If their so called god was real, why does it not show up now and then and say Hi?

Yet they believe on the misguided belief of blind faith alone. They are nothing more than a cult that is stuck in some delusional dark age. Very sad people are brainwashed like this.