Religion is Child Abuse

[Frankie]

If there is no logical reason for believing in such an entity.....

.....To pick your child's side in a war by default by labeling them Catholic or Protestant, Muslim or Jew is disgusting.....

.....is the stuff from which closed-mindedness and wars are started.

For some people, there is a logical reason. Have you read my post? That's just one reason why some Christians believe in what they do. There is no mathimatical equation that convinces people to believe in God...that doesn't make sense, so there are many other logical reason for people to be Christian, like what I posted before. You don't have to believe it, in fact, you don't have to believe anything. For all we know, everything they tell us on TV is a lie, everything you learn in school can be a lie, religion can be a lie, but for different people, all those things have logical explanations that help us understand why it might be true. You can believe in what history tells us, or you can think it's all a bunch of lies (some people do by the way), what does anyone know about anything beyond their direct experiences, for all we know you might be living in a dream world, I would like to see anyone write down on a peice of paper, how you know for a fact, or your logical explanation that you do infact exist in your present state, and you're not just living in a dream. Because if that's the case, everything you believe goes out the window. People have no idea.

Ah, the religion and war connection always reappears. The fact is, we would probably be having the exact same wars with or without religion in the world. People are funny, that they think if religion goes away, they're will be peace on earth. What's really going on is that there probably hasn't been a war purely based on or instigated by religion in the past 4000 years. There's always a reason that nations and communities have gone to war, beside that of religion. If used at all, they would use their faith as a mask for the war, but if that's the case you can use anything....I mean people have created thousands of their own Gods anyways, if the pressumably true faiths (Christian, Jewish, Muslim) didn't exist, we might just be using other dieties or our culture to defend our way of life.

As for children being born into religion, and it being forced upon them and enlisting their kids into a holy army of God....I just don't see it happening. At least for the majority of North America. My experience to this kind of stuff, is children brought up in a christain church by their parents so that the parents give them the opportunity to have something they think is worth while in believing in and can benefit their lives. But none of that matters, because the majority of kids seem to abandon their parents idea of religion when they hit 17/18, and outright reject it. Most parents anyways take a nonchalant attitude towards it, and their kids don't recieve that much pressure from any sides....so in that case the odds are falling in your favor...or anyone else that might want kids to abandon religion. You're winning.

[White Doors]

The question is, why do some people believe that their opinions can over ride the opinions of others?

Why the need to be contemptuous?

If your belief in whatever it is you believe is so strong in something, why the need to convince others that do not believe?

AW is correct and succinct when she says that both sides have fundamentalists.

The only thing in common is their intolerance for the other.

So when you are on here preaching that someone is going to hell for not believing what you believe, guess what? You are a fundamentalist.

Same as it goes when you tell people that they are not free to believe what they like to believe, guess what?

You are a fundamentalist.

Each fundametalist is as dangerous as the other - it matters not, WHAT it is they believe, only that they will not tolerate any belief to the contrary.

I think some people need to look at their own posts on this thread and blush in the admission that they have become what they are so adamantly trying not to be - fundamental.

You think you are breaking the mould and freeing yourself from the shackles of humanity' history, when in reality you are merely propogating it's continuance in a different form.

bravo

[Drea]

White Doors,

I work with a really nice Christian woman. She carries her bible everywhere and lives by it.

She is a kind and loving person.

Well the other day we got to talking and I said that I am basically an atheist. She was absolutely dumbfounded. I've noticed that since then she is not so friendly to me anymore (even though we have a monthly project that we work on together).

I am (and have been) more than willing to "set aside" my non-belief and just simply "leave it off the table" so to speak, but she is not. She cannot, in her heart, condone my atheism so she avoids me.

I can tolerate her belief, but she cannot tolerate my lack of it -- and that is the difference.

Edited February 12, 2008 by Drea

[Frankie]

All the stuff you guys are talking about has nothing to do with religion or faith itself. You know, people forcing their opinions on you and whatnot...that's just how the vast majority of people are in general. You don't agree with someone on something, and who knows, they migth shun you. I used to work with this guy who was atheist, and he listened extensivally to rap music. When he found out my taste of music was widely different then his, he was all pissed off, and he never acted the same. Just goes to show...

[White Doors]

White Doors,

I work with a really nice Christian woman. She carries her bible everywhere and lives by it.

She is a kind and loving person.

Well the other day we got to talking and I said that I am basically an atheist. She was absolutely dumbfounded. I've noticed that since then she is not so friendly to me anymore (even though we have a monthly project that we work on together).

I am (and have been) more than willing to "set aside" my non-belief and just simply "leave it off the table" so to speak, but she is not. She cannot, in her heart, condone my atheism so she avoids me.

I can tolerate her belief, but she cannot tolerate my lack of it -- and that is the difference.

If you tolerate her beliefs the same way you 'tolerate' others divergent beliefs on this board, then I daresay that I would have much the same reaction as her.

You are a fundamentalist. You mock others for not believing what you do.

Perhaps she doesn't like your fundamentalism, not your atheism.

I know I don't.

Edited February 12, 2008 by White Doors

[White Doors]

All the stuff you guys are talking about has nothing to do with religion or faith itself. You know, people forcing their opinions on you and whatnot...that's just how the vast majority of people are in general. You don't agree with someone on something, and who knows, they migth shun you. I used to work with this guy who was atheist, and he listened extensivally to rap music. When he found out my taste of music was widely different then his, he was all pissed off, and he never acted the same. Just goes to show...

exactly.

try being a painter with conservative politics and see the reception you get from your 'contemporaries'.

[Drea]

Here on MLW, yes I mock people's religious beliefs. Would I do that in person? No I would not.

Internet forums are not the same as "in person".

Many (probably most) things said on this forum would never be said in person.

I would never, for example, tell a native to "Fly little eagle fly!" in person, but have no issue with saying it here.

On MLW I am just another poster... in real life I am me and conduct myself accordingly. I'd hate to see bc04 or leafless for example, acting in real life the same way they do here.

Cheers!

[White Doors]

Here on MLW, yes I mock people's religious beliefs. Would I do that in person? No I would not.

Internet forums are not the same as "in person".

Many (probably most) things said on this forum would never be said in person.

I would never, for example, tell a native to "Fly little eagle fly!" in person, but have no issue with saying it here.

On MLW I am just another poster... in real life I am me and conduct myself accordingly. I'd hate to see bc04 or leafless for example, acting in real life the same way they do here.

Cheers!

you may not say it, but you think it. you are a fanatic wether you voice your intolerance or not.

Only 10% of communication is the spoken word.

cheers!

[Guest American Woman]

Here on MLW, yes I mock people's religious beliefs. Would I do that in person? No I would not.

Internet forums are not the same as "in person".

Many (probably most) things said on this forum would never be said in person.

I would never, for example, tell a native to "Fly little eagle fly!" in person, but have no issue with saying it here.

On MLW I am just another poster... in real life I am me and conduct myself accordingly. I'd hate to see bc04 or leafless for example, acting in real life the same way they do here.

Cheers!

Since you feel free to mock people's religious beliefs here, that says all that needs to be said about you and how you feel about religious people. In other words, your attitude is the same as the woman's who you claim is shunning you. Perhaps she can see through your 'pretend tolerance.' At any rate, she's being honest about her feelings towards you while you are secretly mocking her. In other words, even though you don't feel free to say in person what you say, you are intolerant. That makes you a fundamentalist and you are no different from her.

Edited February 12, 2008 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

Well isn't that convenient? I'm not a Christian, so you can't discuss Christianity with me.

Try reading what I really said since that's not what I said at all.

[White Doors]

Since you feel free to mock people's religious beliefs here, that says all that needs to be said about you and how you feel about religious people. In other words, your attitude is the same as the woman's who you claim is shunning you. Perhaps she can see through your 'pretend tolerance.' At any rate, she's being honest about her feelings towards you while you are secretly mocking her. In other words, even though you don't feel free to say in person what you say, you are intolerant. That makes you a fundamentalist and you are no different from her.

Ding ding ding!

[Drea]

you may not say it, but you think it. you are a fanatic wether you voice your intolerance or not.

Only 10% of communication is the spoken word.

cheers!

The woman I mentioned is in no way shape or form a "fanatic".

But she was very shocked by my admission of atheism.

Just because a person does not believe in religion does not make them "fanatical".

I am sure that this lovely woman would love to see the entire world become Christians (as I would like to see the entire world become secular) but she is not fanatical about it, nor am I.

You don't like atheists so you call us "fanatics". Not all Christians are fanatics and I have never met an evangelical fanatical atheist. I do not need to make wild claims that someone is invisibly judging my movements. I make wild claims such as the earth is billions of years old, and humans evolved here.

On the contrary, as an atheist I personally am responsible for everything I say and do. I cannot "give" my problems over to nature to solve for me.

What people believe is not going to change. We do not believe. Simple. And this lovely woman? If all Christians were like her I would have no problem with them. But alas, "god warriors, the crazy trading spouses lady, etc give good Christians a bad name.

[Drea]

Since you feel free to mock people's religious beliefs here, that says all that needs to be said about you and how you feel about religious people. In other words, your attitude is the same as the woman's who you claim is shunning you. Perhaps she can see through your 'pretend tolerance.' At any rate, she's being honest about her feelings towards you while you are secretly mocking her. In other words, even though you don't feel free to say in person what you say, you are intolerant. That makes you a fundamentalist and you are no different from her.

and what do you know about my real life?

Religion rarely comes into our conversations.

Do you seriously think atheists are running around burning crosses, destroying effigies of Jesus? Usually we are just silent. The internet has finally given us a voice -- the only voice we have.

Living in the bible belt as I do.... I would lose clients if I didn't pretend to believe. So I pretend. *shrug*.

As Chrisitans they CANNOT have ESP (devil stuff!) so I have no worry about people reading my mind and finding out I am only pretending.

Edited February 12, 2008 by Drea

[Guest American Woman]

and what do you know about my real life?

Ummmm. I know what you just posted about it; which is what I was responding to. In other words, I know that you will mock people's religious beliefs here but you won't in person.

Do you seriously think atheists are running around burning crosses, destroying effigies of Jesus? Usually we are just silent. The internet has finally given us a voice -- the only voice we have.

Whoever said you were?? How about responding to what I said. As for your silence, you aren't silent here, so I know that you think you're right to the extent that you have no tolerance for anyone who doesn't believe as you do.

Living in the bible belt as I do.... I would lose clients if I didn't pretend to believe. So I pretend. *shrug*.

Good for you. Keep on pretending. But "pretending" doesn't make you any more tolerant than the fundementalist religious are, especially when you're only pretending to earn a buck.

Edited February 12, 2008 by American Woman

[Drea]

Sales and marketing is all about pretending. Us marketers are gooood actors LOL

I don't mean to come across 'pissy' but I resent being called a fanatic. It's a ridiculous assumption that has no merit.

And I am not asking people to give up their beliefs -- I am asking only that govt and the public be spared from religious interference. Is that too much too ask.

*ideally I would LIKE for the whole world to give up the notion of religion and concentrate on the life we have rather than "the next one" which may or may not be real.

I live my life as though there is no "other". Fully and completely with no guilt.

[Guest American Woman]

Sales and marketing is all about pretending. Us marketers are gooood actors LOL

So you're a good actor. Good for you. That doesn't make you any different from the religious woman you are criticizing. You are just like her, only you pretend not to be. But "pretending" doesn't make you different in reality.

I don't mean to come across 'pissy' but I resent being called a fanatic. It's a ridiculous assumption that has no merit.

In other words, the truth hurts. Anyone who feels the need to mock people's beliefs anywhere-- whether it's online or in person-- is not a tolerant person. You have no tolerance for any beliefs that contradict yours. You are, by your actions and beliefs, a "fanatic" as truly as a fundamentalist Christian et al is. How else would you describe someone who wants the whole world to believe as they do?

I am asking only that govt and the public be spared from religious interference. Is that too much too ask.

No, that's not all you're doing. Not by a long shot. You're admittedly mocking people's beliefs. You're declaring your beliefs to be the correct beliefs. You are showing no tolerance for any beliefs other than your own.

If "all you were asking" is for the govt and the public to be spared from religious interference, that would be understandable. I feel the same way, and have said numerous times that I believe in the separation of church and state. So believe me, if that's "all" you were doing, I wouldn't have anything but agreement for your attitude towards religion.

But as I said, it's not all you're doing by a long shot. You are as intolerant of others' views as the fundamentalist Christians et al are. Furthermore, not only are you intolerant, you feel the need to "mock." And you don't mock only the fundamentalists, you mock everyone who believes in God. Yet you don't recognize that you're just the opposite side of the coin of the religious fundamentalists.

[Drea]

You have a problem with my "attitude toward religion". What attitude should an atheist have when watching child abuse happen (ala God Warrior nutbar woman)?

Shall we just shrug and let it go?

Shall we allow Sharia law to be "fair" to all religions?

That religion probably has a "problem" with your attitude towards it's followers as well.

What are you going to do about it? Are you goiing to change your beliefs? Are you going to "tolerate" their religion infiltrating your life? Your child's life?

Of course not.

And I feel the same way.

[Guest American Woman]

You have a problem with my "attitude toward religion". What attitude should an atheist have when watching child abuse happen (ala God Warrior nutbar woman)?

I have no clue as to what you're talking about. What/who is "God Warrior nutbar woman?" But I can tell you this much. The attitude an atheist should have when watching child abuse happen is the same as anyone else's, whether they are a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddist, or agnostic. Why would an atheist react any differently? Like I said, I have no clue as to where you are coming from here.

Shall we just shrug and let it go?

I'd say you should report it, same as anyone else.

Shall we allow Sharia law to be "fair" to all religions?

No. I think we should mock it. I'm sure that would do worlds of good.

That religion probably has a "problem" with your attitude towards it's followers as well.

The fundamentalists likely do. As I said, fundamentalists all have the same mentality/attitude. Whether they are religious or athiests. I think I've made that very clear.

What are you going to do about it? Are you goiing to change your beliefs? Are you going to "tolerate" their religion infiltrating your life? Your child's life?

Of course not.

And I feel the same way.

I see. So that's why you mock all religion and everyone who believes in God. Because there are fundamentalist Muslims who believe in Sharia law.

If you want to discuss Sharia law, go for it. But that's not what this thread is about.

Edited February 12, 2008 by American Woman

[Drea]

No. I think we should mock it. I'm sure that would do worlds of good.

Have you seen the thread on the "Mohammed Cookie"?

Some real good attitudes of "tolerance" on that thread I tell yah!

hey AW, I am not trying to get in a "match" with you. I am saying I am not a "fundy" that most atheists are not "fundies". And trust me, I know me better than you know me.

Now, as an atheist I am willing to work with and socialize with those who believe in a god. The believer, however, has been taught that I (being an atheist) am in league with the "devil" and cannot be trusted. This I could tell from that lovely Christian woman's reaction... she looked literally afraid when I stated my non belief.

I have no fear of some judge telling me who I can and cannot socialize with... the same cannot be said for Christianity (or any other religion). And this thread is about Child abuse with regard to religion - is teaching children not to socialize with nonbelievers abuse? Perhaps it could be construed as such.

Cheers!

[BubberMiley]

I believe it’s abusive to indoctrinate children into religion not only because of the mental anguish it may cause by spreading the concept of burning in hell for eternity, but also because of the grief and misery it would perpetuate for future generations.

Dostoevsky said (as Ivan Karamozov):

"For the great concern of these miserable creatures is not that every individual should find something to worship that he personally considers worthy of worship, but that they should find something in which they can all believe and which they can all worship in common; it is essential that it should be in common. And it is precisely that requirement of shared worship that has been the principal source of suffering for individual man and the human race since the beginning of history. In their efforts to impose universal worship, men have unsheathed their swords and killed one another."

By its nature, religion strives for a universal union of all souls, but this has proven to inevitably lead to war. Religion has also demonstrated over and over again how it can cause people to act in irrational, inhuman ways. It may have done good deeds for people and performed valuable social services, but its overall contribution to humanity has been far, far more negative than positive. And those social services could just as easily be performed by a secular agency anyway.

It’s simply wrong to inflict further religious conflict and misery on yet another generation. We understand the world now through modern science. One can live a full, spiritual life without the dictates of ancient doctrines and self-interested clerics. Religion is no longer necessary, and would save the world considerable grief if it would just wither away and die.

Edited February 13, 2008 by BubberMiley

[White Doors]

Sales and marketing is all about pretending. Us marketers are gooood actors LOL

I don't mean to come across 'pissy' but I resent being called a fanatic. It's a ridiculous assumption that has no merit.

And I am not asking people to give up their beliefs -- I am asking only that govt and the public be spared from religious interference. Is that too much too ask.

*ideally I would LIKE for the whole world to give up the notion of religion and concentrate on the life we have rather than "the next one" which may or may not be real.

I live my life as though there is no "other". Fully and completely with no guilt.

Russia dn China both outlawed religion - how did that work out again?

You mock people for believeing in God because you think it's their belief in god that makes them act the way they do. (negatively only I presume).

It's not. It's their fanatical belief that they are right and everyone else is wrong that makes them act that way.

You also believe this way. ergo, you are a fanatic and are part of the very problem that you are fanatical about.

simple really.

not to mention ironic.

[White Doors]

I believe it’s abusive to indoctrinate children into socialism not only because of the mental anguish it may cause by spreading the concept of having no food on the table, but also because of the grief and misery it would perpetuate for future generations.

Dostoevsky said (as Ivan Karamozov):

By its nature, socialism strives for a universal union of all souls, but this has proven to inevitably lead to war. Socialism has also demonstrated over and over again how it can cause people to act in irrational, inhuman ways. It may have done good deeds for people and performed valuable social services, but its overall contribution to humanity has been far, far more negative than positive. And those social services could just as easily be performed by a religious agency anyway.

It’s simply wrong to inflict further socialistic conflict and misery on yet another generation. We understand the world now through modern science. One can live a full, spiritual life without the dictates of marzist doctrines and self-interested unions. Socialism is no longer necessary, and would save the world considerable grief if it would just wither away and die.

~fixed~

still convinced that religion is the problem or maybe it is the fanatism of an belief system that is the problem?

[Drea]

Russia dn China both outlawed religion - how did that work out again?

You mock people for believeing in God because you think it's their belief in god that makes them act the way they do. (negatively only I presume).

It's not. It's their fanatical belief that they are right and everyone else is wrong that makes them act that way.

You also believe this way. ergo, you are a fanatic and are part of the very problem that you are fanatical about.

simple really.

not to mention ironic.

you cannot refute that religion is unprovable and therefore resort to calling me a "fanatic". I wish everyone on earth had food to eat too -- does that make me a "fanatical food giver"? LOL

When a person cannot refute the argument they resort to insults. Oh well. Have fun with that I am sure your sky daddy will forgive you for being an ass.

Your next post on Socialism... hullo. By nature we are socialists or our species of animal would not have survived it's evolution!

In modern context...do you believe each parent should school their own children, that you should build your own roads, that you should be your own police dept and fire dept...? Oh and the military -- who should pay them, private enterprise? LOL

You have gotten communism mixed up with socialism, me thinks.

There is very little communism left in the world, but socialism (humanity has a conscience after all!) is on the rise in all countries -- even in that big capitalist nation people are calling for social reform.

But I am THE baddest, evillllest person a'cause I don't believe in your sky daddy notion. I am an eeeevil athesit -- booga booga!

*scared yah didn't I?

[BubberMiley]

~fixed~

still convinced that religion is the problem or maybe it is the fanatism of an belief system that is the problem?

I would say the same if you switched nouns to refer to any movement that people would kill and die for in order to consolidate power to a few. And even though western religion in the 21st century is comparatively moderate, religion has been historically and continues to be overwhelmingly fanatic. It is only because of the relatively recent degeneration of “faith” in religious authority that we have been able to feel comfortable with its lack of influence. But fanatics are common (and some would say mainstream) everywhere else in the world, and the huckabees are making a comeback here too. Some of them are even talking about making amendments to the U.S. constitution of biblical proportions.

It is the nature of religion for its adherents to feel they are following the unadulterated word of God. Squishy religions that are open to other ideas and don’t necessarily consider themselves to know “the truth” are far more an aberration than the norm. What you call fanaticism is what I call religion operating on all cylinders.

[cybercoma]

I don't mean to come across 'pissy' but I resent being called a fanatic. It's a ridiculous assumption that has no merit.

You're just as much a fanatic atheist as any theist is a fanatic atheist in regards to all other possible gods. There simply is no such thing as a fanatic atheist, since it's the default position. I don't understand why people are being so dense about this.