Is Canada now a police state under the Harper Tories?

[guyser]

What you should be worried about is the erosion of your civil liberties by a constant barrage of left wing laws and the perpetual whining about human rights.

Huh?

Left wing laws?

[M.Dancer]

Has there ever been a single case where a right-wing government hasn't sought to increase the power of the police when elected to government? When will enough be enough?

Name a legislation that increased the powers of Police.

All elected gov'ts campaign on law and order....whether they are left or right..all do.

[eyeball]

Sorry, I meant increase the number of police which increases the power of the state. There are other things Conservatives have done to dilute the power of the people.

I agree that all political parties exploit fear and loathing and hold themselves up as being the only thing between us and anarchy, this is why we need a separate judiciary, human rights and a charter of rights and freedoms so badly. Its also why we need public funding for the Court Challenges Program something the Conservatives took away.

[M.Dancer]

Sorry, I meant increase the number of police which increases the power of the state. There are other things Conservatives have done to dilute the power of the people.

I agree that all political parties exploit fear and loathing and hold themselves up as being the only thing between us and anarchy, this is why we need a separate judiciary, human rights and a charter of rights and freedoms so badly. Its also why we need public funding for the Court Challenges Program something the Conservatives took away.

You would prefer to have too few police? How about firefighters? too many or too few?

[eyeball]

I'd prefer a state that is less powerful than the people.

[Topaz]

Not in the least....Canada has been "abusing" human rights for a lot longer than 2 years. If the issue is human rights "abuse" a la Taser, one can't pin this on the present PMO. Another member has pointed out more Taser deaths in Canada before 2006.

I can't wait until the elections to see what your name will be! Hilitary? Obama? McCain? You won't be able to use the present name because they will be a "dirty word" as far as the rest of the world goes. I hope the world brings them up on war crimes.

[Argus]

I'd prefer a state that is less powerful than the people.

And the "people" include organized crime, street gangs, and biker gangs. You want them to be more powerful than the police?

If we had a real court system where most criminals and the violently inclined were locked away you might have a point, but given the hundreds of thousands of criminals on the streets at any given minute...

[Argus]

I'm no fan of Stephen Harper. I actually despise him. He has been intrumental in dismantling this country's oldest political party. Him and his cronies are not from the same party as MacDonald and Disraeli

The party of MacDonald? The party of MacDonald was the Conservative Party. At one point it merged with another party, the Progressives, to become the Progressive Conservative Party. This was hardly the party of MacDonald. After Mulroney and Clark completed the ousting of the conservative wing from any positions of influence and the party essentially became "The Progressive Party" with a small conservative rump along for the ride, most actual conservatives abandoned that party and re-formed the Conservative Party.

Do tell me how that is abandoning MacDonald?

[Argus]

Beat up a drug dealer and steal the money...the cops will be sitting in the same prison cell as the dealer, and in fact the dealer should have a lesser sentence than the cop.

I know I know, its all cool, until one day you are the recipient of "The Cherry Beach Express" , or falling up the stairs , or the telephone book treatment. At that point you will be paying Charles Roach or Danson lots of money.

Your ideas are scary.

You know, I don't recall that many innocent people ever took the Cherry Beach Express. And even if that very occasionally happened - at least the rest of the country could walk the streets without fear, and didn't need burglar alarms and bars on their windows, and didn't need to keep their kids in their back yards for fear they'd be kidnapped and raped.

As for drug dealers - the proper punishment is a bullet behind the ear. I'd say give them a trial first, but that's not really possible because of the lawyers. We can't afford to try people, and we're not allowed to punish them. Instead the community is punished itself, every day, by the presence of hundreds of thousands of vermin on the streets in their midst.

[Argus]

Talk about your constant barrage and perpetual whining... I'm far more worried about this never ending loathing for anything associated with the left and the subsequent erosion of any middle ground.

When push finally comes to shove and its definitely coming, I have no doubt who's side the majority of cops will be on. There'll be a few like those with LEAP perhaps who'll have their doubts but it won't be enough. Is Canada now a police state under the Harper Tories? No, but's its moving faster towards one than it was before.

Has there ever been a single case where a right-wing government hasn't sought to increase the power of the police when elected to government? When will enough be enough?

I suppose enough will be enough when criminals are properly apprehended and punished in a just fashion. I suppose that might never happen unless, as one of Shakespeare's characters suggested, we kill all the lawyers first, but still, justice and safe streets are what conservatives generally are on about. If the Left didn't sympathize more with rapists, child molesters and murderers than it did with victims of crime there wouldn't be a left/right divide on this issue.

[Argus]

Sorry, I meant increase the number of police which increases the power of the state. There are other things Conservatives have done to dilute the power of the people.

I agree that all political parties exploit fear and loathing and hold themselves up as being the only thing between us and anarchy, this is why we need a separate judiciary, human rights and a charter of rights and freedoms so badly. Its also why we need public funding for the Court Challenges Program something the Conservatives took away.

The people who mostly took advantage of that program were a very long ways from being the poor and downtrodden. They were, for the most part, upper middle class political activists only interested in increasing the rights of their own small, specific groups - usually the rights which would give them more money.

[eyeball]

The vindictiveness that conservatives want justice to bring down on people belongs in the medieval dark ages. Its guranteed to cultivate a more vicious society with more vicious criminals. Its a vicious circle.

[guyser]

And the "people" include organized crime, street gangs, and biker gangs. You want them to be more powerful than the police?

Unintended consequences.

Of course we need to be stronger than than the state. Otherwise we get steamrolled. When the state is stronger than its people then our rights can be diminished in a stroke.

I want to live in a free society. A free society IS stronger than the state.

If we had a real court system where most criminals and the violently inclined were locked away you might have a point, but given the hundreds of thousands of criminals on the streets at any given minute...

Hundreds of thousands amongst 33 million. Not bad. The rest is hysterical hyperbole. Nothing more.

If the Left didn't sympathize more with rapists, child molesters and murderers than it did with victims of crime there wouldn't be a left/right divide on this issue.

What a ridiculous notion.

You know, I don't recall that many innocent people ever took the Cherry Beach Express. And even if that very occasionally happened - at least the rest of the country could walk the streets without fear, and didn't need burglar alarms and bars on their windows, and didn't need to keep their kids in their back yards for fear they'd be kidnapped and raped.

Sigh, you missed the point. The police taking a person to a secluded lakeside place to beat and coerce a confession, or just for shits and giggles is the point.

The rest of that is , again, hyperbole.

As for drug dealers - the proper punishment is a bullet behind the ear. I'd say give them a trial first, but that's not really possible because of the lawyers. We can't afford to try people, and we're not allowed to punish them. Instead the community is punished itself, every day, by the presence of hundreds of thousands of vermin on the streets in their midst.

Your continued hard on against lawyers is clouding your noggin. Lawyers dont prevent trials, and lawyers dont prevent state executions.

Yes, that low level pot dealer is such a blight on society, selling to Doctors, lawyers, engineers, policemen..........lets put a bullet in him.

It might look good in print, but there isnt a shred of truth in it.

[Argus]

The vindictiveness that conservatives want justice to bring down on people belongs in the medieval dark ages. Its guranteed to cultivate a more vicious society with more vicious criminals. Its a vicious circle.

More vicious criminals? I seem to recall the last case we discussed on this site was some vermin who used a hatchet on the back of a guy's neck for fun - leaving him a quadriplegic. And that's nowhere nearly a worst case. Just how much more vicious do you think criminals are capable of getting?

[Argus]

Unintended consequences.

Of course we need to be stronger than than the state. Otherwise we get steamrolled. When the state is stronger than its people then our rights can be diminished in a stroke.

Childish and inane. The state is always stronger than us for it is more organized and has the heavy weapons. It is stronger now. The only thing which keeps it in check is the willingness of those in charge to bow to the mechanisms in place. But if the state chooses not to there's really little we can do.

I want to live in a free society. A free society IS stronger than the state.

Drivel.

Hundreds of thousands amongst 33 million. Not bad. The rest is hysterical hyperbole. Nothing more.

Bullshit. Because people like you indulge your hysterical fear of government the citizens of this country are afraid to go outside at night, afraid to send their kids to school or to let them go out to play, afraid in their own homes because of the vermin who walk the streets. Because of you and those like you. In reality you've created a whole bunch of small prisons which we must all be locked into every day and night.

[guyser]

Childish and inane. The state is always stronger than us for it is more organized and has the heavy weapons. It is stronger now. The only thing which keeps it in check is the willingness of those in charge to bow to the mechanisms in place. But if the state chooses not to there's really little we can do.

You could not be more wrong.

Think about it, if the state is stronger than its people, then we live in a dictatorship. Who votes in the govt? The govt doesnt do it.

If you are charged with an offense, then you are guilty. Period. Then the only thing to determine is what penalty you will serve. It may be what you want, but no one else on MLW or in Canada will agree with you.

Now because of our laws and rights, you will be given your day in court , and counsel which you admonish so puerilely, will defend your rights. And when you are found not guilty and allowed to walk out of court ask yourself, who is more powerful ? If the state was, you would not walk.

Drivel.

If you knew what you were talking about you wouldnt post that.

Bullshit. Because people like you indulge your hysterical fear of government the citizens of this country are afraid to go outside at night, afraid to send their kids to school or to let them go out to play, afraid in their own homes because of the vermin who walk the streets. Because of you and those like you. In reality you've created a whole bunch of small prisons which we must all be locked into every day and night.

Oh horse twaddle.

I dont fear the govt in the slightest. I dont fear walking most streets. Dont subject your irrational fears to anyone else.

You must live in a hell hole. The immigrants are smelly and vermin walk your streets. Try moving. and learn your rights.

[Topaz]

What is interesting, and disturbing, on this topic is that the federal government IS free to direct the activities of the RCMP, where the Ontario government is NOT free to direct the activities of the OPP.

Evidence:

OPP Oath

I solemnly affirm that I will be loyal

to Her Majesty the Queen

and to Canada, and that I will

uphold the Constitution of Canada and that I will,

to the best of my ability, preserve the peace,

prevent offences and

discharge my other duties as a Commissioned Officer,

faithfully, impartially and according to law.

RCMP Oath

I, ............, solemnly swear that I will faithfully, diligently and impartially execute and perform

the duties required of me as a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and will well and truly

obey and perform all lawful orders and instructions that I receive as such,

without fear, favour or affection of or toward any person. So help me God.

The RCMP owe allegiance ONLY to those who give them orders (and who that is is not defined), whereas the OPP have an individual obligation of loyalty to the Queen (including the Queen's Treaties) and to uphold the Constitution, independent of any orders they may be given.

The RCMP is in need of a major overhaul, and clarification of their responsibilities to protect the freedom and rights of Canadians, because right now, OUR rights are overridden by any orders they receive from anyone 'above'.

I do not believe we are protected from dictatorship. Harper controls the RCMP and the army. So did every other Prime Minister.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Governor General Commander-in Chief of the military?

[capricorn]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the Governor General Commander-in Chief of the military?

Yes.

http://www.gg.ca/gg/rr/cc/hist_e.asp

[Argus]

You could not be more wrong.

Think about it, if the state is stronger than its people, then we live in a dictatorship. Who votes in the govt? The govt doesnt do it.

But votes depend on the government agreeing to abide by that vote. If the government refuses to step aside and its enforcement arms go along with it then what good is your vote?

Now because of our laws and rights, you will be given your day in court , and counsel which you admonish so puerilely, will defend your rights. And when you are found not guilty and allowed to walk out of court ask yourself, who is more powerful ? If the state was, you would not walk.

Assuming the state gave a damn about me. Why should it? If the state wanted me in prison I would be in prison. But for the most part, the people who make up government don't usually care much about criminals. They aren't affected, driving around in their limosines as they are, sending their kids to private schools, holidaying in foreign countries. Why should they care that other people are afraid to walk the streets, or afraid in their homes? I don't know a senior who isn't afraid in their own home.

And I'm not suggesting there should be no trials. I'm saying that the law has become twisted and perverted into nothing more than a money making mechanism for lawyers. It should take about five minutes to determine the guilt of your average street criminal. But it usually takes us a year and a half. Why? Because of the immense bureaucracy and legal bullshit lawyers have put in place to justify their own existence.

I dont fear the govt in the slightest. I dont fear walking most streets. Dont subject your irrational fears to anyone else.

You must live in a hell hole. The immigrants are smelly and vermin walk your streets. Try moving. and learn your rights.

I live in a very nice neighborhood of single detached homes, actually. But the vermin is indeed all around us in this city, because people like you are terrified that the government is going to come into your home and throw you into some kind of Nazi era concentration camp and don't care about the victims of crime who have to suffer for your fears.

And I am all for executing drug dealers, one shot behind the ear, drug smugglers, too. This society would be a hell of a lot better off without them in it.

[Topaz]

Canada isn't the only country feeling this way, the Americans are now asking questions about alot of things the police are doing and the government.

[Oleg Bach]

Canada isn't the only country feeling this way, the Americans are now asking questions about alot of things the police are doing and the government.

There will never be a police state in Canada - the average officer is not loyal to the politicans or the judicary because the common officer holds the crooks in utter contempt. The only way to have a real police state would be to fire every officer with average or above average intelligence and replace the forces with retards...and retards are pretty much useless other than taking the role of the Key Stone Cops...You forget..with out good law enforcement - and I mean high quality men and woman that respect the state - that the state has absolutely no power. A police state in the real sense of the word is one where there are no police - just thugs...so what you may be thinking of is an old Chicago style enforcement agency...and Canadians will not tolerate being pushed around by inferiours..besides - if you want to have a police state you would have to deal with companies like Black Water - and that would mean recruiting men that still have not decieded if they want to join law enforcement or the Hell's Angels.....high quality people will not partake in suppression- and only high quaility types are capable of successful suppression. Name one police state that was successful in the long term? There is none!

[eyeball]

And the "people" include organized crime, street gangs, and biker gangs. You want them to be more powerful than the police?

If we had a real court system where most criminals and the violently inclined were locked away you might have a point, but given the hundreds of thousands of criminals on the streets at any given minute...

The people you've mentioned have been empowered by prohibition. Its bad enough when governments try to scare people with boogymen so they can then position themselves as the only thing standing between the boogymen and the people. In the case of prohibition the government policies actually cause criminals to flourish.

Stop prohibition and by some estimates you'd stop 90% of the crime.

[eyeball]

And I am all for executing drug dealers, one shot behind the ear, drug smugglers, too. This society would be a hell of a lot better off without them in it.

Do you do alcohol by any chance?

[Oleg Bach]

Do you do alcohol by any chance?

Those that push alcohol are just as bad...personally I wish I never was exposed to the poison - and most of all I wish that my children never saw the stuff...funny that the powerful famlies that installed our leaders all made their money selling alcohol - opium and weapons...I heard a very influential buisness man say "alcohol is the great destroyer" - meanwhile he owes all of his power as did his father to the destruction of Canadian and American citizens through booze.

[eyeball]

Those that push alcohol are just as bad.

That would be the same government that Argus would direct to put bullets in other dealer's heads. I can just imagine how kind and gentle society would be in that case.