GST Ads

Michael Bluth · January 7, 2008

On TVs and the electronics and a host of other appliances such as washers and dryers, it ranged up to 17%. The tax was so complicated and had thousands of provisions.

On the majority of products, and revenue received by the Government, it was 13.5%.

It was a bad tax for Canadians. The prosperity of today's economy is thanks to the removal of the MST.

sharkman · January 7, 2008

From the Globe report there was not one economist who thought the GST was a better cut than others in terms of helping the economy.

1) At the time of the decision to make the latest cut the economy was certainly NOT in need of help. Even now forecasts predict only a slower rate of growth. So the argument that an income tax cut would have helped the economy more is solving a problem that doesn't exist.

2) What critics of the cut keep failing to mention is there was an income tax cut as well. And an Employment Tax cut that came into effect Jan 1. This was another excellent cut, since the EI revenues gathered have been far larger than pay outs for quite a while, a dishonest windfall the Liberals kept raking in instead of adjusting downward as they should have.

Michael Bluth · January 7, 2008

2) What critics of the cut keep failing to mention is there was an income tax cut as well. And an Employment Tax cut that came into effect Jan 1. This was another excellent cut, since the EI revenues gathered have been far larger than pay outs for quite a while, a dishonest windfall the Liberals kept raking in instead of adjusting downward as they should have.

We've already seen one of the critics try and rgue that the GST cut should be considered in isolation.

Probably because that is the only way their howls of protest can seem anything but utterly ridiculous.

AngusThermopyle · January 7, 2008

Don't know where you got $270 dollars from?

Looking at it now I'm sober I don't know where I got it from either. :unsure:

gc1765 · January 7, 2008

We've already seen one of the critics try and rgue that the GST cut should be considered in isolation.

Are you saying we shouldn't criticize a government policy as long as that government has a few good policies?

That's like saying we shouldn't criticize the Liberals for wasting $2 billion on the gun registry because they also cut taxes :blink:

sharkman · January 7, 2008

Are you saying we shouldn't criticize a government policy as long as that government has a few good policies?
That's like saying we shouldn't criticize the Liberals for wasting $2 billion on the gun registry because they also cut taxes

How did you get that out of bluth's statement? He was referring to your wrong headed attempt at analyzing the GST cut within a vacuum, not in the real world where it's connected to the tax structure and has many positive spin offs.

Michael Bluth · January 7, 2008

How did you get that out of bluth's statement? He was referring to your wrong headed attempt at analyzing the GST cut within a vacuum, not in the real world where it's connected to the tax structure and has many positive spin offs.

Thank you.

Maybe if repeated people make the same point the critics "are you saying we shouldn't criticize" lines will die down.

If you want to criticize be reasonable, done attack for the sake of it. Especially when your criticisms are so easily refuted.

gc1765 · January 7, 2008

If you want to criticize be reasonable, done attack for the sake of it.

Are you saying it's unreasonable to suggest that cutting the GST is a bad policy?? :blink:

Or are you saying that it's unreasonable to suggest that advertising the GST cut, which is really just a political ad at the taxpayer's expense, is a waste of taxpayer money? :blink:

Michael Bluth · January 8, 2008

Are you saying it's unreasonable to suggest that cutting the GST is a bad policy??
Or are you saying that it's unreasonable to suggest that advertising the GST cut, which is really just a political ad at the taxpayer's expense, is a waste of taxpayer money?

The way in which you framed your argument 'GST cut vs. income tax cuts' was intellectually dishonest for ignoring the package of tax cuts both GST cuts have been included in. I'm not the only one saying it either.

Statements like "really just a political ad at the taxpayer's expense" is crass partisanship at its worst. It ignores valid reasons for advertising the GST cut. It also ignores the fact that many people don't see the value in a lot of Government of Canada advertising but still don't dismiss such advertising as political "at the taxpayer's expense".

If you want to be taken seriously don't insult the intelligence of your audience.

jdobbin · January 8, 2008

Are you saying it's unreasonable to suggest that cutting the GST is a bad policy??

Yes. The GST cut is like magic. Harper is a genius and only someone with hate in their hearts wouldn't see that.

Or are you saying that it's unreasonable to suggest that advertising the GST cut, which is really just a political ad at the taxpayer's expense, is a waste of taxpayer money?

The ad is super important and could not be worded in any way other than it is now. It is money well spent because it was a Conservative decision. If the Liberals did it, it would be bad. Can't you see that?

I'll break it down: Liberals bad, Tories good.

Now, if you can't stop your personal attacks and hate, you will deal with the consequences. Grrr.

gc1765 · January 8, 2008

The way in which you framed your argument 'GST cut vs. income tax cuts' was intellectually dishonest for ignoring the package of tax cuts both GST cuts have been included in. I'm not the only one saying it either.

Do you agree that if the GST hadn't been cut, that the extra revenue (the $5 billion or so per percent, per year) could have been used for something else...for example, income tax cuts??

Michael Bluth · January 8, 2008

Do you agree that if the GST hadn't been cut, that the extra revenue (the $5 billion or so per percent, per year) could have been used for something else...for example, income tax cuts??

Do you deny that you have been willfully downplaying the full effect of the Conservative tax cuts?

gc1765 · January 8, 2008

Yes. The GST cut is like magic. Harper is a genius and only someone with hate in their hearts wouldn't see that.
The ad is super important and could not be worded in any way other than it is now. It is money well spent because it was a Conservative decision. If the Liberals did it, it would be bad. Can't you see that?

I'll break it down: Liberals bad, Tories good.

Now, if you can't stop your personal attacks and hate, you will deal with the consequences. Grrr.

:lol:

Sadly, there are certain posters here who seem to actually believe that...

gc1765 · January 8, 2008

Do you deny that you have been willfully downplaying the full effect of the Conservative tax cuts?

Answer my question and I'll gladly answer yours.

Michael Bluth · January 8, 2008

Answer my question and I'll gladly answer yours.

I asked these ones first.

So when you are trying to support your point you feel it is appropriate to discuss other policies. But when it comes to positive Conservative policies on income taxes they aren't what this "thread" is about? Why the double-standard? Unable to make a coherent argument on a level playing field?

I have said before that your entire argument is based on a world in an unrealistic vacuum.

Answer my questions before asking me to answer yours please. Or at least understand why trying to hold me to a higher standard than you hold yourself is yet another double-standard.

Edited January 8, 2008 by Michael Bluth

gc1765 · January 8, 2008

I asked these ones first.
I have said before that your entire argument is based on a world in an unrealistic vacuum.

Answer my questions before asking me to answer yours please. Or at least understand why trying to hold me to a higher standard than you hold yourself is yet another double-standard.

Already answered it here: Link

Care to answer my question yet? Or is it that you know I'm right and don't want to admit it?

Michael Bluth · January 8, 2008

Already answered it here: Link
Care to answer my question yet? Or is it that you know I'm right and don't want to admit it?

What on earth are you talking about?

You haven't proven anything. Are you saying that there is any party that will roll back the GST cut in favour of a further income tax cut? If not, why complain about the hypothetical which will never be put into place by anyone.

As for the simplicity of your question. Yes the $5 Billion could have been used for something else.

However the CPC made a promise on the GST in the election and kept it. No dithering. No trying to please everyone without accomplishing everything.

Edited January 8, 2008 by Michael Bluth

gc1765 · January 8, 2008

Are you saying that there is any party that will roll back the GST cut in favour of a further income tax cut? If not, why complain about the hypothetical which will never be put into place by anyone.

I don't know, are you saying there is any party which can undo the damage of the sponsorship scandal? If not, why complain about something that can never be put back into place by anyone?

Michael Bluth · January 8, 2008

I don't know, are you saying there is any party which can undo the damage of the sponsorship scandal? If not, why complain about something that can never be put back into place by anyone?

Yes, the Conservatives could pay back the $1.14 Million that Justice Gomery proved was stolen from the Canadian taxpayers due to the variety of frauds involved with the Sponsorship program. But why should they? Those frauds were a direct result of the actions of the Liberal Party of Canada. :lol:

The Conservatives have proven that there is a viable alternative to governing the country rather than a party that defrauds the taxpayer out of $1.14 Million. Something the Liberals couldn't do even if they had lived up to their promise to pay back the money.

Edited January 8, 2008 by Michael Bluth

gc1765 · January 8, 2008

As for the simplicity of your question. Yes the $5 Billion could have been used for something else.

First off, let me just say thank you for answering my question. Which brings me to the answer of your question:

"Do you deny that you have been willfully downplaying the full effect of the Conservative tax cuts?"

No, I don't think I have been downplaying the Conservative tax cuts. The fact is the economy is doing quite well, resulting in huge surpluses. As you agree, that money had to be spent on something. Asssuming that spending doesn't increase, that money would either have to go to paying down the debt, or to decreasing taxes. If that extra $10 billion per year went to paying down the debt, that would be a good thing, IMO. If it went to income tax cuts, that would also be a good thing, IMO. But if it goes to a GST cut, that is not the best use of that money. Seems the vast majority of economists agree with me on that.

However the CPC made a promise on the GST in the election and kept it. No dithering. No trying to please everyone without accomplishing everything.

True. However, they never should have made such a promise in the first place. Harper obviously thought a GST cut would be politically popular (he's an economist, he should know that it isn't the best policy) so he made a stupid promise. Just like the Liberals were stupid to promise to get rid of the GST. That being said, as much as I hate lying politicians, I would rather admit that they made a mistake and go with the best policy rather than try to keep their promises. Kind of like with the income trust situation, I think it was a good thing that Harper went back on his word in that situation. Sure he broke a promise, but at least he went with the better policy. That's what he should have done here.

Michael Bluth · January 8, 2008

Just like the Liberals were stupid to promise to get rid of the GST. That being said, as much as I hate lying politicians, I would rather admit that they made a mistake and go with the best policy rather than try to keep their promises.

Where did the Liberals ever admit they made a mistake with their proposed GST cut?

jdobbin · January 8, 2008

True. However, they never should have made such a promise in the first place. Harper obviously thought a GST cut would be politically popular (he's an economist, he should know that it isn't the best policy) so he made a stupid promise. Just like the Liberals were stupid to promise to get rid of the GST.

Too bad the Tories didn't think about it before carrying out with their promise. It isn't like they kept all their promises like that the income trust promise they made.

gc1765 · January 8, 2008

Where did the Liberals ever admit they made a mistake with their proposed GST cut?

Did the Conservatives ever admit that they made a mistake by promising not to tax income trusts?

Michael Bluth · January 8, 2008

That being said, as much as I hate lying politicians, I would rather admit that they made a mistake and go with the best policy rather than try to keep their promises. Kind of like with the income trust situation, I think it was a good thing that Harper went back on his word in that situation.

I think there is a significant difference between Income Trust and each of the GST promises.

The situation significantly and materially changed from when Harper made the Income Trust promise and when he backtracked.

It appears the Liberals never meant to honour the eliminate the GST promise. It wasn't feasible given the situation the country faced at the time. No party could have implemented that promise. For that reason breaking that promise was almost to be expected.

The Conservatives made a promise that was fiscally feasible and let the electorate decide. They kept their promise. Should they break their promise because not everyone agrees with it? What does that say to the plurality of Canadians who voted for them in the last election?

msj · January 8, 2008

First off, let me just say thank you for answering my question. Which brings me to the answer of your question:
"Do you deny that you have been willfully downplaying the full effect of the Conservative tax cuts?"

No, I don't think I have been downplaying the Conservative tax cuts. The fact is the economy is doing quite well, resulting in huge surpluses. As you agree, that money had to be spent on something. Asssuming that spending doesn't increase, that money would either have to go to paying down the debt, or to decreasing taxes. If that extra $10 billion per year went to paying down the debt, that would be a good thing, IMO. If it went to income tax cuts, that would also be a good thing, IMO. But if it goes to a GST cut, that is not the best use of that money. Seems the vast majority of economists agree with me on that.

True. However, they never should have made such a promise in the first place. Harper obviously thought a GST cut would be politically popular (he's an economist, he should know that it isn't the best policy) so he made a stupid promise. Just like the Liberals were stupid to promise to get rid of the GST. That being said, as much as I hate lying politicians, I would rather admit that they made a mistake and go with the best policy rather than try to keep their promises. Kind of like with the income trust situation, I think it was a good thing that Harper went back on his word in that situation. Sure he broke a promise, but at least he went with the better policy. That's what he should have done here.

Well said GC1765.