Muslim takes beating to help Jews

[Drea]

Telegraph UK

...because it's a rare day when we see good news about Muslims.

When Hassan Askari saw two couples on a subway train being pummelled by a white gang yelling anti-Semitic slurs in response to a Jewish festival greeting, he knew he could not turn the other cheek

[Michael Hardner]

Tit for tat anecdotes mean nothing.

I saw a Polish guy stealing a sausage the other day, but I saw another Polish guy donating a sausage to the community sausage pile.

These boards are not big media. We don't have to dumb things down or pretend that these little stories mean anything at all. If we discuss these little stories, it should be a discussion that centers around the pointlessness of such things.

[Guest American Woman]

We don't have to dumb things down or pretend that these little stories mean anything at all. If we discuss these little stories, it should be a discussion that centers around the pointlessness of such things.

I'm not following your line of thought at all. Are you saying when citizens don't stand by doing nothing as they watch an attack take place, reports of their actions "mean nothing at all?"

Of course they mean something. They're an example of what we need more of in our society where too many people just stand by and watch attacks take place. His actions allowed one member of the group being attacked to pull the emergency alarm. Why no one else did this is a mystery. (It's sort of a mystery why Hassan Askari didn't do this before getting involved, too...)

It is a story of bravery and goodwill across religious divides, and normally cynical New Yorkers have taken the hero to their hearts.

Sounds as if it did mean something to quite a few people.

Here's another "dumbed down little story" that meant something to me:

An illegal immigrant who gave up his long walk into the U.S. to help a boy whose mother was killed in a van crash in the desert said Wednesday that he never thought of leaving the child.

Authorities said Cordova may have saved the life of 9-year-old Christopher Buztheitner, whose mother was killed when their van ran off a cliff in a remote area north of the Mexican border on Thanksgiving Day. Link

I think we need to hear more of the goodness of man along with all the bad focused on in the news.

Edited December 20, 2007 by American Woman

[Drea]

I think we need to hear more of the goodness of man along with all the bad focused on in the news.

Especially at Christmastime.

Merry Christmas American Woman! Hope your Christmas is filled with fun and love.

Cheers!

Drea

[Michael Hardner]

AW,

I'm not following your line of thought at all. Are you saying when citizens don't stand by doing nothing as they watch an attack take place, reports of their actions "mean nothing at all?" huh.gif

It doesn't mean anything to policy discussions, and discussions about government.

It may mean something to the individuals involved, and it may give us emotional fuel to follow our consciences but such things are not evidence o anything, other than the fact that such stories are popular and get posted on web boards.

Of course they mean something. They're an example of what we need more of in our society where too many people just stand by and watch attacks take place. His actions allowed one member of the group being attacked to pull the emergency alarm. Why no one else did this is a mystery. (It's sort of a mystery why Hassan Askari didn't do this before getting involved, too...)

And what information does that give us ? None at all, really.

QUOTE

It is a story of bravery and goodwill across religious divides, and normally cynical New Yorkers have taken the hero to their hearts.

Sounds as if it did mean something to quite a few people.

Here's another "dumbed down little story" that meant something to me:

An illegal immigrant who gave up his long walk into the U.S. to help a boy whose mother was killed in a van crash in the desert said Wednesday that he never thought of leaving the child.

Authorities said Cordova may have saved the life of 9-year-old Christopher Buztheitner, whose mother was killed when their van ran off a cliff in a remote area north of the Mexican border on Thanksgiving Day. Link

I think we need to hear more of the goodness of man along with all the bad focused on in the news.

Yes, yes, yes. And 'Forrest Gump' was an inspirational movie to millions, too...

'Maple Leaf Web is a non-profit, non-partisan Canadian political education web-site that aims to provide educators, students and the attentive public with a credible source for political education and information.'

I suppose that such stories, when used in a political campaign, must be discussed but I will point out the problems with such stories, as often as I can.

[M.Dancer]

I suppose that such stories, when used in a political campaign, must be discussed but I will point out the problems with such stories, as often as I can.

Please do so in Zeitgeist where your discussion will get the widest possible audience that it deserves.

[Michael Hardner]

Thank you.

[Guest American Woman]

Yes, yes, yes. And 'Forrest Gump' was an inspirational movie to millions, too...

In case you're unaware of it, Forrest Gump is fictional. But if you prefer hearing only the bad news, that's your perrogative. I'm just glad everyone doesn't share your view. My parents actually base the news program they watch on the fact that they end each broadcast with a postivie, upbeat story. So "different strokes for different folks," eh?

'Maple Leaf Web is a non-profit, non-partisan Canadian political education web-site that aims to provide educators, students and the attentive public with a credible source for political education and information.'

I can quote the board, too.

We encourage you to speak your mind on relevant issues in a thoughtful way.

To some, this is a relevant issue and since I don't see where it must pass the "Michael Harder Approval Test," I'll assume it's well within the content that's allowed on this board.

I suppose that such stories, when used in a political campaign, must be discussed but I will point out the problems with such stories, as often as I can.

Okey dokey. So point out the "problem." I'm listening.

Edited December 20, 2007 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

Merry Christmas American Woman! Hope your Christmas is filled with fun and love.

Cheers!

Drea

Right back at'cha, Drea.

Best wishes to everyone!

[Michael Hardner]

AW

In case you're unaware of it, Forrest Gump is fictional. But if you prefer hearing only the bad news, that's your perrogative. I'm just glad everyone doesn't share your view. My parents actually base the news program they watch on the fact that they end each broadcast with a postivie, upbeat story. So "different strokes for different folks," eh?

It doesn't matter if it's fictional or not. If you're trying to say that these stories enlighten people's lives, then fiction performs that function just as easily.

Your parents are watching the news for entertainment purposes. That's their right, but they're not getting any information that will help them form

good objective opinions on policy.

I can quote the board, too. wink.gif

Read the quote, and understand that this isn't a storytelling site.

To some, this is a relevant issue and since I don't see where it must pass the "Michael Harder Approval Test," I'll assume it's well within the content that's allowed on this board.

It may be allowed, but I'd like to point out the futility of including such "stories". Hopefully, people will use less "stories" to back up their arguments. I'm about to post on another thread where MikeDavid or Seinfeld have likely posted another "story" that calls for the banning of all immigration, or the disbanding of the UN based on one incident.

Okey dokey. So point out the "problem." I'm listening. smile.gif

The problem is that you get no meaningful information from a story, you only get emotional energy.

There are some stories that make you angry, and that should - especially stories where basic rights are flagrantly dropped, or the system clearly fails in a basic way. It might make sense to discuss those incidents here and there.

But too often someone will quote a "story" as a reason for following policy and that is bold stupidity.

Of course there are nice Muslims, and there are not nice Muslims. There's not reason to include examples of these in a discussion about immigration.

[Guest American Woman]

Ummm. No. My parents most definitely do not watch the news for "entertainment purposes." They watch it for the same reasons you do, only they like to hear some of the good that goes on in the world too. Which is why they like the fact that their news program ends with an upbeat, positive news item. Notice it's a "news item." Like Drea's post was. It's not fiction. It's not a movie. It's real life. And someone trying to help people being assaulted is every bit as newsworthy as the assault.

So yeah. It does matter if it's fictional or not. It's the difference between a "story" and a "news item." So rest assured that I do understand that this site isn't a "storytelling site." Not that it's any of your concern.

Furthermore, I don't see this news item as trying to back up any argument. It's not a "story" posted as a reason for following policy, so it's not "bold stupidity." It's not an example in a discussion about immigration, since you are the only one who's mentioned immigration in this thread. It's none of the things you claim to be a "problem."

Methinks you need to lighten up. Some of us think good news is just as worthy as bad news, and if you're not in that group, so be it. Just remember: You're not the boss of me!

[M.Dancer]

Of course there are nice Muslims, and there are not nice Muslims. There's not reason to include examples of these in a discussion about immigration.

No of course not. Immigration isn't about people, isn't about culture, isn't about whether people and their culture or whether they will fit in or not.

Immigration is about numbers not their lives or their stories.

Please take it to Zeitgeist.... where someone will give a flying fig whether you happen to care for the direction of the thread.....

[Michael Hardner]

AW,

Ummm. No. My parents most definitely do not watch the news for "entertainment purposes." They watch it for the same reasons you do, only they like to hear some of the good that goes on in the world too. Which is why they like the fact that their news program ends with an upbeat, positive news item. Notice it's a "news item." Like Drea's post was. It's not fiction. It's not a movie. It's real life. And someone trying to help people being assaulted is every bit as newsworthy as the assault.

The idea that information has emotional content is very cute to me.

If you add emotional content, then the process isn't pure information gathering, it's something else.

I don't think there's much more we can discuss on that point.

So yeah. It does matter if it's fictional or not. It's the difference between a "story" and a "news item." So rest assured that I do understand that this site isn't a "storytelling site." Not that it's any of your concern. cool.gif

Furthermore, I don't see this news item as trying to back up any argument. It's not a "story" posted as a reason for following policy, so it's not "bold stupidity." It's not an example in a discussion about immigration, since you are the only one who's mentioned immigration in this thread. It's none of the things you claim to be a "problem."

Methinks you need to lighten up. Some of us think good news is just as worthy as bad news, and if you're not in that group, so be it. Just remember: You're not the boss of me! tongue.gif

All of this is fine, but this site is to talk about political ideas and governance, not to feel good about ourselves.

There are many other chat sites, such as Doones, Hardball and Advancode, where flaccid and idle discussion is encouraged.

[Michael Hardner]

No of course not. Immigration isn't about people, isn't about culture, isn't about whether people and their culture or whether they will fit in or not.

Immigration is about numbers not their lives or their stories.

Please take it to Zeitgeist.... where someone will give a flying fig whether you happen to care for the direction of the thread.....

Morris,

Are you saying that you approve of MikeDavid's method of arguing against immigration by finding an example where a Peruvian spit on the sidewalk ? I don't think that you do approve of that method.

[M.Dancer]

Morris,

Are you saying that you approve of MikeDavid's method of arguing against immigration by finding an example where a Peruvian spit on the sidewalk ? I don't think that you do approve of that method.

Actually I was expressing my disapproval of your peculiar penchant for being an incompetent Jr moderator ...for trying to stifle discussion that doesn't suit your idiosyncratic tastes.

If you don't like it, feel free not to read or post or at least post once and bugger off.

[Michael Hardner]

Actually, I reserve the right to criticize any poster's style of arguing as I do with MikeDavid or Leafless, for the purposes of showing that their style of arguing lacks logic, and is muddle-headed.

Likewise, anecdotal evidence should not be used in any discussion where objective evidence is required.

Clear now ?

[M.Dancer]

Actually, I reserve the right to criticize any poster's style of arguing as I do with MikeDavid or Leafless, for the purposes of showing that their style of arguing lacks logic, and is muddle-headed.

Likewise, anecdotal evidence should not be used in any discussion where objective evidence is required.

Clear now ?

Yes you reserve the right to be a nagging scolding depressed middle aged housewife with little else to do but to correct the foibles of others ....

I am perfectly clear.

...except this thread wasn't an argument until you decided to stick you nose in and go tsk tsk tsk...

Really, take to the leper colony where your erudite musings have such a dedictaed following....

[Guest American Woman]

AW,

The idea that information has emotional content is very cute to me.

If you add emotional content, then the process isn't pure information gathering, it's something else.

A news item about someone doing good is no more-no less "emotional content" than a news item about someone doing something wrong.

I don't think there's much more we can discuss on that point.

Evidently you were wrong.

All of this is fine, but this site is to talk about political ideas and governance, not to feel good about ourselves.

I Didn't realize that. I guess I'll have to try harder to feel bad about myself while I'm here.

There are many other chat sites, such as Doones, Hardball and Advancode, where flaccid and idle discussion is encouraged.

That's nice. And should I ever care, that information just might come in handy.

...except this thread wasn't an argument until you decided to stick you nose in and go tsk tsk tsk...

What he said. Clear now?

[Sulaco]

AW,

The idea that information has emotional content is very cute to me.

If you add emotional content, then the process isn't pure information gathering, it's something else.

I don't think there's much more we can discuss on that point.

All of this is fine, but this site is to talk about political ideas and governance, not to feel good about ourselves.

There are many other chat sites, such as Doones, Hardball and Advancode, where flaccid and idle discussion is encouraged.

The argument appears to be that emotional reactions are irrelevant. I disagree. They are relevant in several ways. First, to argue that they have no validity in and of themselves is dangerous. They are, afterall, an evolved response to something. Secondly, the emotional responses these stories evoke will enter into discourse whether you like it or not - hoping to be able to ignore them is a hyper-rationalist utopianism. I could go on.

Edited December 20, 2007 by Sulaco

[Michael Hardner]

Sully,

The argument appears to be that emotional reactions are relevant. I disagree. They are relevant in several ways.

I assume the first sentence is a typo...

First, to argue that they have no validity in and of themselves is dangerous. They are, afterall, an evolved response to something. Secondly, the emotional responses these stories evoke will enter into discourse whether you like it or not - hoping to be able to ignore them is a hyper-rationalist utopianism. I could go on.

Utopian, maybe.. but the fact is - they have no place in a structured argument built on evidence, unless you're having a discussion about stories and representations themselves.

Your points:

1) They are an evolved response to something.

So is everything posted on here. And... ?

2) The emotional responses will enter into discourse...

Of course, we are not robots. We can't ignore emotions and as humans every argument will have an emotional element, if not an emotional base and even an emotional motivation.

However, sad stories and happy stories are everywhere and the mere existence of them is not proof or indication of anything.

One should be able to provide a rationale for or against the war without having to include a pitiful profile of a soldier who was killed, or of a sad Iraqi family that was saved by a brave American solider.

Such things are at best a distraction, and at worst manipulative. Including them in your arguments is, in my opinion, the mark of someone who doesn't have substantive evidence.

[Michael Hardner]

AW

A news item about someone doing good is no more-no less "emotional content" than a news item about someone doing something wrong.

Sure.

Evidently you were wrong.

I mean, I don't think we can go any farther with this. We either agree or we disagree.

Either you think that arguments require colourful anecdotes, or you don't.

Maybe I'm wrong but I didn't think MapleLeafWeb was set up for creative writing.

[leonardcohen]

If we discuss these little stories, it should be a discussion that centers around the pointlessness of such things.

Ah, put a sock in it!

Don't mind me, that was just an emotional reaction

[Rue]

Telegraph UK

...because it's a rare day when we see good news about Muslims.

Its a great story. Thanks for sharing it.

[Moxie]

Like Rue I enjoyed reading the story, it took serious guts to intervene.

I do however have the urge to scream at Mikey, I can post what I want you aint the boss of me.

[Michael Hardner]

Sure, Moxie post whatever you like. Unfortunately, posting anecdotes means absolutely nothing, apart from the entertainment and heartwarming value.

Sorry to upset some of you, but there seem to be a few people who don't know how to present valid evidence.