Lose of jobs

[margrace]

Our Neighbours just came back from Germany. They have companies there as well as in Canada, so they spend their time equally between both areas.

They told us that the car parts industry in Germany has been moved to China, many young people are losing their jobs and their places to live. One plant they cited closed and then offered jobs back to the people who had worked for them at half the pay.

In our area there seems to be a manufacturing industry closing at least once a week. On the news this week was a parts manufacturer in Barrie. It announced to its employees that the factory was closing in January because of the Canadian dollar. However when the management spoke to the press they also said the plants in the US were closing but not the one's in China. How long do we allow this to go on. We have to be the stupidest people in the world. We want throw away items but do not want to see the loss of jobs.

[Borg]

Our Neighbours just came back from Germany. They have companies there as well as in Canada, so they spend their time equally between both areas.

They told us that the car parts industry in Germany has been moved to China, many young people are losing their jobs and their places to live. One plant they cited closed and then offered jobs back to the people who had worked for them at half the pay.

In our area there seems to be a manufacturing industry closing at least once a week. On the news this week was a parts manufacturer in Barrie. It announced to its employees that the factory was closing in January because of the Canadian dollar. However when the management spoke to the press they also said the plants in the US were closing but not the one's in China. How long do we allow this to go on. We have to be the stupidest people in the world. We want throw away items but do not want to see the loss of jobs.

It all boils down to money.

Profit for the shareholder.

As the father of a friend of mine used to say - "never be a borrower from the bank - be a bank owner."

The shareholder demands profit and that profit comes to the shareholder.

Profit is made by cutting costs, maximizing efficiency and selling at the highest price possible.

I know you know what the above is about.

We all complain about high prices and buy on sales prices when we can.

So in fact we support this type of circumstance.

When canadian companies can compete with the new world order of "cheap" or keep more coins in their pockets through reductions in taxes, then and only then will this stop happening.

Someday at this rate we will end up at the mercy of foreign interests - then it will get real expensive.

Until then, we reap what we sow.

Borg

[Wild Bill]

It all boils down to money.

Profit for the shareholder.

As the father of a friend of mine used to say - "never be a borrower from the bank - be a bank owner."

The shareholder demands profit and that profit comes to the shareholder.

Profit is made by cutting costs, maximizing efficiency and selling at the highest price possible.

I know you know what the above is about.

We all complain about high prices and buy on sales prices when we can.

So in fact we support this type of circumstance.

When canadian companies can compete with the new world order of "cheap" or keep more coins in their pockets through reductions in taxes, then and only then will this stop happening.

Someday at this rate we will end up at the mercy of foreign interests - then it will get real expensive.

Until then, we reap what we sow.

Borg

Partially true, but here's another factor not always mentioned. China has artificially pegged the value of its currency. They have been deliberately keeping it VERY low to give themselves a huge trade advantage over other countries.

There has been mounting pressure from other countries to force China to let its currency float to a more accurate level but so far China has made only token moves and no other country has made any effort to retaliate.

As it becomes more of an issue on the home fronts we'll likely see our politicians finally stand up to China and force a more fair arrangement but we're not quite there yet. There have been many dark rumours that China bribes western politicians to allow the situation to continue but I myself don't buy into these conspiriacy theories. It's more likely that our "leaders" just haven't been paying attention! It's not as if any of them would be affected by manufacturing job losses!

There's an old saying that you shouldn't attribute to evil what can be more easily explained by stupidity.

[Canuck E Stan]

Our Neighbours just came back from Germany. They have companies there as well as in Canada, so they spend their time equally between both areas.

They told us that the car parts industry in Germany has been moved to China, many young people are losing their jobs and their places to live. One plant they cited closed and then offered jobs back to the people who had worked for them at half the pay.

In our area there seems to be a manufacturing industry closing at least once a week. On the news this week was a parts manufacturer in Barrie. It announced to its employees that the factory was closing in January because of the Canadian dollar. However when the management spoke to the press they also said the plants in the US were closing but not the one's in China. How long do we allow this to go on. We have to be the stupidest people in the world. We want throw away items but do not want to see the loss of jobs.

Stupid is right. The Canadian Car industry had a slogan years ago in trying to help to encourage buyers to buy their cars, "Buy the car your neighbour builds."

If the consumer would pay attention to what they buy, and follow this creed in everything they buy,especially the big ticket items, more manufacturers would be around.

We've already seen what Chinese toys are like and should think again about anything we buy that comes from outside of Canada.

But you are totally right, we as consumers are stupid.

[Michael Hardner]

Again, this has been going on for some time now. If you're just noticing it, then you're truly out of touch. Several industries have been impacted by global trade, and consumers have also benefited from it.

There are certain industries that are just starting to get affected, and because they have resources to marshal the media to their cause, we will start to hear about them. Imagine the uproar, though, if banking or the medical establishment was globalized. Those industries, I imagine, are untouchable.

[madmax]

Our Neighbours just came back from Germany. They have companies there as well as in Canada, so they spend their time equally between both areas.

They told us that the car parts industry in Germany has been moved to China, many young people are losing their jobs and their places to live. One plant they cited closed and then offered jobs back to the people who had worked for them at half the pay.

In our area there seems to be a manufacturing industry closing at least once a week. On the news this week was a parts manufacturer in Barrie. It announced to its employees that the factory was closing in January because of the Canadian dollar. However when the management spoke to the press they also said the plants in the US were closing but not the one's in China. How long do we allow this to go on. We have to be the stupidest people in the world. We want throw away items but do not want to see the loss of jobs.

Countries in the G8 Without an industrial base, soon find themselves outside the G8.

There is little positive for the people of Canada, who find themselves dependent upon foreign produced goods, foreign produced food, and exported raw resources with no value add component.

My advice to people is to get into finance and business and think about money, not what is good for the country.

What is happening is not good!

Of course, the Provincial Liberals In Ontario denied there was any problem in the years prior to the election and during the election campaign.

They are useless (I Know put this in the Provincial Thread), and only now do I see the look of fear on the face of the minister in charge. I am shocked she was re elected.

What is also problematic for those who are concerned, is that the Federal Conservatives could care less. Meanwhile even the BQ tries to highlight the situation, and the Federal Liberals Sit on their hands come voting time on a motion, because they are afraid it could lead to an election, which is hogwash.

Politics and spin are going to get in the way of what needs to be done.

[Borg]

Partially true, but here's another factor not always mentioned. China has artificially pegged the value of its currency. They have been deliberately keeping it VERY low to give themselves a huge trade advantage over other countries.

There has been mounting pressure from other countries to force China to let its currency float to a more accurate level but so far China has made only token moves and no other country has made any effort to retaliate.

As it becomes more of an issue on the home fronts we'll likely see our politicians finally stand up to China and force a more fair arrangement but we're not quite there yet. There have been many dark rumours that China bribes western politicians to allow the situation to continue but I myself don't buy into these conspiriacy theories. It's more likely that our "leaders" just haven't been paying attention! It's not as if any of them would be affected by manufacturing job losses!

There's an old saying that you shouldn't attribute to evil what can be more easily explained by stupidity.

While your post makes some sense, until things change I stand by my comments. I suspect they will not change in the immediate future.

China has the temdency to tell the world community to *&%$ off on a fairly regular basis.

Despite my dislike of how they do things, I do respect them for this - I wish canada would do it more often. China cares little for what the world thinks of it and is quite prepared to let them know.

Borg

[Michael Hardner]

madmax

Countries in the G8 Without an industrial base, soon find themselves outside the G8.

There is little positive for the people of Canada, who find themselves dependent upon foreign produced goods, foreign produced food, and exported raw resources with no value add component.

My advice to people is to get into finance and business and think about money, not what is good for the country.

What is happening is not good!

Of course, the Provincial Liberals In Ontario denied there was any problem in the years prior to the election and during the election campaign.

They are useless (I Know put this in the Provincial Thread), and only now do I see the look of fear on the face of the minister in charge. I am shocked she was re elected.

What is also problematic for those who are concerned, is that the Federal Conservatives could care less. Meanwhile even the BQ tries to highlight the situation, and the Federal Liberals Sit on their hands come voting time on a motion, because they are afraid it could lead to an election, which is hogwash.

Politics and spin are going to get in the way of what needs to be done.

Would you like to explain Hong Kong or Singapore ? These are countries with few resources that grew to be quite wealthy.

[madmax]

Stupid is right. The Canadian Car industry had a slogan years ago in trying to help to encourage buyers to buy their cars, "Buy the car your neighbour builds."

If the consumer would pay attention to what they buy, and follow this creed in everything they buy,especially the big ticket items, more manufacturers would be around.

We've already seen what Chinese toys are like and should think again about anything we buy that comes from outside of Canada.

But you are totally right, we as consumers are stupid.

People buy items made in Canada without knowing it. In the 80s people would laugh about anything made here, say it was crap, and really struggle to find what was made here. Since that time period and the introduction of two free trade agreements and globalization, it amazes me how many things were still being made here as little as 4 years ago. However, a decision to close a plant usually is made with 2 years planning, it is clear that the attraction of manufacturing in foreign markets was far to enticing to ignore.

Less then 4 years ago, people didn't look to see if their fridges/washing machines etc where made in Canada. They just bought them. Same as portable coolers in Canadian Tire. People were making them here and their companies were making profits. However, boardroom decisions to large profits mean that these Canadian Operations Close. Now people buy these items, and there is no way they can be made in Canada because there aren't any manufacturers left as far as I am aware.

Ironically you will see some CAW chap with a bumper sticker that says, "LOST YOUR JOB YET, STOP BUYING FOREIGN", which is missing the point. It is the manufacturers leaving, it wasn't about consumer choice. Unless you want to highlight I saw this car at WALMART.

Manufacturers Leaving and setting up shop in foreign markets are those that the CAW work in, and it has nothing to do with what they produce.

They are leaving and they have access to our market, with the trade deals. There is no need to build here.

Other foreign manufacturers like Honda, Toyota, etc, build their cars here. They aren't in a rush to relocate, regardless of economic pressure, because the investment here is relatively recent. They have access to the US market, which they fear they may lose if the US becomes protectionist.

Chinas Currency must be floated.

BTW not everything China makes is crap. They have a skilled workforce, high level technical investment and an Engineer can be had for as little as $300 per month.

[August1991]

It all boils down to money.

Profit for the shareholder.

As the father of a friend of mine used to say - "never be a borrower from the bank - be a bank owner."

The shareholder demands profit and that profit comes to the shareholder.

...

Gee whiz Borg, where do you get these little homilies? Are you trapped in a Hallmark Card factory?

----

The US and Canada have lost more jobs due to new technology over the past ten years or so than we have lost to foreign trade. Going back hundreds of years, we have lost far more jobs to technology.

Just think of all the typewriter manufacturers that have shut down because no one buys typewriters anymore.

Borg, should we have forbidden computers to preserve jobs manufacturing typewriters? By your logic and the logic of Margrace, we should forbid or hinder trade with China to preserve manufacturing jobs here.

As to your argument that "it's all about profits", if you really feel that way, you can send me half of your pay cheque as proof that you are unsullied by the "profit motive". In fact, the so-called "profit motive" in this case is merely the desire to find a better way of doing something. Every time you find a new (and presumably better) way of doing something, the old way becomes obsolete. Is that bad?

Edited December 16, 2007 by August1991

[madmax]

madmax

Would you like to explain Hong Kong or Singapore ? These are countries with few resources that grew to be quite wealthy.

I was speaking with regards to G8 countries. Hong Kong is now controlled by China and is Part of China.

[madmax]

Gee whiz Borg, where do get these little homilies? Are you trapped in a Hallmark Card factory?

----

The US and Canada have lost more jobs due to new technology over the past ten years or so than we have lost to foreign trade. Going back hundreds of years, we have lost far more jobs to technology.

Canada has lost more jobs to relocation vs technology over the past 10 years. When the technology upgrades and then moves to another country, you lose it all.

It is very possible for a Canadian Based Company to produce a good and compete against foreign competition and drive a profit. But it is better to relocate and make more money.

For every technological gain, these gains are not specific to just Canada. China has been the largest beneficiary of technological change, and yes they are losing jobs to the technology.

Your statement is accurate regarding technology, but that isn't what this is about. People have always lost their jobs through technological improvements.

Plants are relocating and for someone living in Canada, there is little that can be done about it.

[Borg]

Gee whiz Borg, where do get these little homilies? Are you trapped in a Hallmark Card factory?

----

The US and Canada have lost more jobs due to new technology over the past ten years or so than we have lost to foreign trade. Going back hundreds of years, we have lost far more jobs to technology.

Just think of all the typewriter manufacturers that have shut down because no one buys typewriters anymore.

Borg, should we have forbid computers to preserve jobs manufacturing typewriters? By your logic and the logic of Margrace, we shouldn't trade with China to preserve manufacturing jobs.

As to your argument that "it's all about profits", if you really feel that way, you can send me half of your pay cheque as proof that you are unsullied by the "profit motive". In fact, the so-called "profit motive" in this case is merely the desire to find a better way of doing something. Every time you find a new (and presumably better) way of doing something, the old way becomes obsolete. Is that bad?

I have nothing against profit - I am motivated by it - so do not mistake my writing as complaining. In fact it is simply the truth - always follow the money.

Sorry you do not like my "homilies" - I simply wrote what was stated. A man I respected when he was alive and I now remember fondly as a mentor and friend.

As for doing things better, we strive for that where I live, work and play. In all honesty I cannot think of any company that does not do this.

Somehow I think you have missed my point. And yes, you will possibly respond that you did not.

So you think it is a better way that has cost us jobs - I think it is production costs.

Personally I do not think tech has been the reason for job loss - it has been the cost of production that took those jobs - plus taxation - but you are entitled - as am I - to personal opinion.

Borg

Edited December 16, 2007 by Borg

[Michael Hardner]

mmax,

But Hong Kong got 'rich' before it was part of China. Why does the G8 need an industrial base and not other countries ?

[bush_cheney2004]

Again, this has been going on for some time now. If you're just noticing it, then you're truly out of touch. Several industries have been impacted by global trade, and consumers have also benefited from it.

Indeed it has....I would remind our dismayed members that US automotive manufacturing jobs were exported to Canada.....not much in the way of passionate Canadian complaints as I recall.

There are certain industries that are just starting to get affected, and because they have resources to marshal the media to their cause, we will start to hear about them. Imagine the uproar, though, if banking or the medical establishment was globalized. Those industries, I imagine, are untouchable.

Perhaps, but banking products and processes are going global. Canada never really had a strong Tier I automotive base until "global" manufacturers set up assembly plants. And that includes the former Ford and GM, who are more profitable with operations outside of North America.

Some Canadians act as if the automotive manufacturing base has always existed....not so.

[Borg]

mmax,

But Hong Kong got 'rich' before it was part of China. Why does the G8 need an industrial base and not other countries ?

With a flat tax system and a clearing house mentality that little place became one of the best business centres of the world.

It once was and may still be - incredibly motivated.

Profit was all that mattered.

The rest of the G8 will never go that way.

Borg

[Michael Hardner]

With a flat tax system and a clearing house mentality that little place became one of the best business centres of the world.

It once was and may still be - incredibly motivated.

Profit was all that mattered.

The rest of the G8 will never go that way.

Borg

But the point was made that the G8 needs to retain industry to stay inside the G8. That's not clear to me.

[Borg]

But the point was made that the G8 needs to retain industry to stay inside the G8. That's not clear to me.

Me either.

As far as I am concerned the G8 are nothing more than a good old boys club. I often wonder why we do not make them meet in Alert, or in the middle of the Sahara - prevents trouble makers from showing up.

Personally I think they like the attention.

Needs industry? Then perhaps the G8 will lose a few members and gain a few others. Industry is moving out to places where it is cheaper to operate. Evolution at its finest perhaps?

In the end a country needs to find a way to make it's people - or perhaps i should say - allow it's people to prosper.

Taxation is a major hold back in this country.

Then and only then does it need to look outside the borders.

Borg

[August1991]

So you think it is a better way that has cost us jobs - I think it is production costs.

Personally I do not think tech has been the reason for job loss - it has been the cost of production that took those jobs - plus taxation - but you are entitled - as am I - to personal opinion.

If having the Chinese do a job more cheaply than we can, then of course they should do it. Foreign trade is just a new technology and job losses due to both have the same root cause. We have access to a better cheaper way of doing something.

You are entitled to believe that the earth is flat but you'd be wrong if you believed that. I feel confident that I am right and I have long list of smart people who have given considerable thought to the question to support me.

You are not the first person to think falsely that out-sourcing jobs to China will impoverish us.

Countries in the G8 Without an industrial base, soon find themselves outside the G8.

There is little positive for the people of Canada, who find themselves dependent upon foreign produced goods, foreign produced food, and exported raw resources with no value add component.

My advice to people is to get into finance and business and think about money, not what is good for the country.

What is happening is not good!

Madmax, may I suggest that you take an introductory course in economics at a local college or university? Edited December 16, 2007 by August1991

[Borg]

If having the Chinese do a job more cheaply than we can, then of course they should do it. Foreign trade is just a new technology and job losses due to both have the same root cause. We have access to a better cheaper way of doing something.

You are entitled to believe that the earth is flat but you'd be wrong if you believed that. I feel confident that I am right and I have long list of smart people who have given considerable thought to the question to support me.

You are not the first person to think falsely that out-sourcing jobs to China will impoverish us.

Madmax, may I suggest that you take an introductory course in economics at a local college or university?

Ah yes - the superior intellect.

Backed by even more superior intellect.

I do not believe we will be impoverished and I do not think I stated that - I simply stated that jobs leave because of the cost of production - tech is the same the world over. Perhaps they even blend so closely we do not seem to be able to sort tech from people.

So, when you get laid off just before Christmas after working hard for a company - what do you tell your wife and kids?

"Honey. outsourcing is simply a better way for our country to do business. Do not worry, there will be another job coming our way shortly."

Or worse, your banker.

"Sorry Ms, Mrs, Mr, XXXX I do not have the money to make my mortgage payment at present. Can you take a promisary note?"

Unfortunately we do tend to forget the human factor at times. Easy to do when it is far down the chain from the decision maker.

Even though I am personally motivated by profit I do my darndest to not lose sight of that human factor. I honestly think I have maintained that ability.

So - the earth is not flat - you like to twist words that were not stated - quite knowingly to divert rather than stay on topic - and I will wish you a Merry Christmas.

Borg

Edited December 16, 2007 by Borg

[August1991]

So, when you get laid off just before Christmas after working hard for a company - what do you tell your wife and kids?

"Honey. outsourcing is simply a better way for our country to do business. Do not worry, there will be another job coming our way shortly."

Look Borg, while you do your Christmas shopping, you might want to reflect on the fact that when you choose to buy one gift, you have necessarily given up the idea of buying another gift. Now, was that other gift seller any less deserving?

How can you be so cruel and heartless to favour one gift seller over another? Because of your choice, someone didn't have the money to buy their own child a Christmas gift. Borg, I don't know how you sleep at night.

Edited December 16, 2007 by August1991

[ScottSA]

If having the Chinese do a job more cheaply than we can, then of course they should do it. Foreign trade is just a new technology and job losses due to both have the same root cause. We have access to a better cheaper way of doing something.

You are entitled to believe that the earth is flat but you'd be wrong if you believed that. I feel confident that I am right and I have long list of smart people who have given considerable thought to the question to support me.

You are not the first person to think falsely that out-sourcing jobs to China will impoverish us.

Madmax, may I suggest that you take an introductory course in economics at a local college or university?

Why? Is university teaching entirely different macroeconomic theses these days?

Outsourcing is excellent for individual businesses; I tripled my income in a fell swoop doing it. And while there may be compensatory benefits to my country, the jobs I outsource benefit this country in only one way: transferring wealth from the US, UK, and Australia, to Canada. Unfortunately it also means that some of what would otherwise be coming here goes to India, for a net loss of potential wealth to Canada.

In my case no wealth is transferred from the 3rd world to Canada, simply because no-one, whether it be China or the Tigers, can afford North American expertise. Nor does Canada get any other benefit from my outsourcing.

The upshot is that I gain a personal (or corporate) gain, but it's a short term gain; it'll last for a few decades, barring global catastrophe...certainly long enough to see me out...but it's a long term loss for the country. Manufacturing, both by nature and by scale is far worse, with multiplier effects like the loss of industrial capacity, to mention only one.

Will I stop doing it? Nope. Why would I? Treehuggers will keep driving noxious VW buses painted with toxic chemicals, Gore will keep flying around the globe with a CO2 trail many small countries only wish they could produce, and people everywhere and always will follow the money. But the funny thing is, that for me to stop outsourcing would actually be worse than continuing, because at least I'm attracting wealth here that would otherwise not be attracted. I'd even like to think I'm creating value-added, but that's stretching it a bit. Words are fleeting, unless they create or feed social opinion. Which is, I suppose, why I post here.

But as a longterm solution, outsourcing is a net negative to the outsourcing country, and to the outsourcing company. As the labour market eventually reaches global equilibrium (as it will according to the globalist thesis), the labour economy of foreign outsourcing will dry up, but the native capabilities will have transferred. The outsourcer will eventually lose everything it once had, while the out sourcee will have gained everything.

Of course this is all theoretical, which is why I sleep well at night. Things like global depressions (one of which may well be right around the corner), and wars, have a habit of plowing the playing field in readiness for a completely different game.

[Borg]

Look Borg, while you do your Christmas shopping, you might want to reflect on the fact that when you choose to buy one gift, you have necessarily given up the idea of buying another gift. Now, was that other gift seller any less deserving?

How can you be so cruel and heartless to favour one gift seller over another? Because of your choice, someone didn't have the money to buy their own child a Christmas gift. Borg, I don't know how you sleep at night.

Actually, my wife does the Christmas shopping - so perhaps you should direct your comment to her.

Or my kids who TELL me what to buy for Mom. I am hopeless at shopping and generally wait until the absolute last minute to buy - so as a hen pecked husband and father I simply do as I am told.

I sleep very well at night - however I think I will be using that expensive nine foot wide snowblower to clear the quarter mile long track to the road very early in the a.m. So I will likely be up at 0400 to check on the drifting.

Oh, that snowblower is made in canada with canuck steel and a canuck fabricator.

Ah the joys of country life.

Borg

[madmax]

mmax,

But Hong Kong got 'rich' before it was part of China. Why does the G8 need an industrial base and not other countries ?

Strange line of questioning.

Hong Kong was leased to Britain/UK for the last 100 years. (Lucky for them)

This isn't about denying other countries an industrial base. China had an industrial base, prior to the NORTH AMERICAN investment and the quick transistion to move production from NORTH AMERICA to CHINA. Capital has the right to be invested where ever it so chooses and if companies plan to close profitable operations in Canada and move them to China, that is there business. But I do not find that this is good for people in the country who are affected by this significant shift. More plant closures occurred in the last 4 years under the Liberal Government then in any time prior to the last 30 years that I have looked at, and that includes some huge industrial movement in the 90s and the 70s.

Having seen Canadian Companies that were profitable purchased by Larger US firms and moved either to the states or China, I cannot see how this is better for us. The trend has been to buy the company and shut it down in a couple years. This includes beef packing plants.

The next trend will be to get our water supply, and instead of bottling the product here, bottle it south of the border.

Quiet frankly, there are those who are for this kind of structural change.

I am not one of them.

[margrace]

Will the federal government help the people who lose their jobs with their mortgages. People working in these factories have mostly all bought homes, lots of those people worked in the same place for over 20 years.