Muslim father chokes daughter to near death

[mikedavid00]

Why do we never hear about Muslim boys being killed by their fathers? What would drive someone to murder their daughter for not wearing a garment? Did religion play a factor in this situation?

Ok I'll spell it out for you since I have years and years of direct, personal experience with Immigrants and their kids.

The main gap between us and them, is that we have children to bring a child into the world and help them along through life.

They, on the other hand, have kids in order to have the children help THEM. It's backwards; The children help the parents. Not the parents help the children. For instance, 3 seperate ex gf's would send their paychecks home to their parents. One girl had a direct deposit to her mom in Vancouver. So when she was paid from Health Canada, the paycheck would go directly into her moms account. This was to help pay for the mortgage she could not afford. She had two seperate apt's in the basement. Anything not to work. You depend on the children to give money to you and pay the mortgage. This is how it's done all over South Asia. I'm not sure about China.

The children are like cattle. They are are something to have around that will benefit you one day and look after you.

In order to further the wealth of your family, you arrange a marriage like slaves to another family. This is not for the benefit of the children, but again, the parents.

If you have a boy, the boy is more able to get a job on a farm and bring in money. Women are just caregivers and cannot find work becuase they are physically weaker and lower paid. This is how it is in the 3rd world. It's a mans world to a large extent in the 3rd world despite what the CBC have think. So in order to marry a boy, the girl has to pay money to the boys family. This a burden on the family. If you have a boy though, many families will be chasing you down for marriage.

Now the girl, especially in an Islamic family, must be pure and prestine. She must be a virgin. pretty, skinny, have a submissive attitude, and be very well educated. The man can be a fat slob and in a bedroom unemployed and he'll STILL be treated like a king because the marriage is not so much for the kids, but rather the parents.

Now you ask 'but they are in Canada now and we don't have that society'. It doesn't matter. That is how the parents have been raised to think.

Most likely Aqsa had a bf, was interested in exploring her sexuality (or already explored it), was hanging around evil black and white poeple, possibly smoking. We don't know. When a daughter does this, rumors spread like wild fire and the whole family is shamed and becomes undesired in the community. Trust me.

Because the daughter is being rebelious, the WHOLE FAMILY will suffer and get a smeared reputation as a 'bad family'. We had some in Ottawa. A divorce is a way to gain this reputation. A rebellious daughter is another.

Since their family cluster had a damaged repution in their stoneage community, there now becomes reason for an 'honor killing' which is common place back home. There are services that will take your children away and auction them off for marriage. If someone is causing trouble for the family, you kill them to protect the rest of the family so you doin't become undesiriable. When they get caught doing this over there, they get a small slap on the wrist. It's understandable becuase the judges, police, and others are in the same culture and situations.

The children are treated like human cattle. It happens here in Canada. Marriage is to benefit the parents. They are farm stalk.

Butter chicken and bollywood is not a cultural practice. Telling kids who they are going to marry is. Arranged marriage and forcing women to wear hijabs are both forms of human slavory and should be outlawed in Canada.

This would make MANY of these problems go away. But it's not Canada's role as a country to try to change the practices of people who are still of the stoneage. We just need to protect our borders and only let people in that are of a benefit to us.

[marcinmoka]

Marcinmoka, you hold yourself up as proof immigrant families never treat their children as property to be abused, but you don't mention what religion your family is, so your point is inconclusive.

Not quite proof, but as a tongue in cheek manner of showing that trying to extrapolate anecdotal evidence onto the whole means squat. If we use MikeDavids 'close counters with the third kind' as a basis, it would seem that ALL immigrants are violent and unwilling to change, whereas mine would indicate the opposite, and both parties would ignore the fact that while it does happen more frequently in certain segments of the immigrant population, it is far from being a rampant widespread problem he makes it out to be.

[Moxie]

After reading this current article I'm convinced this child was systematically abused by her father. In Pakistan, if he were charged at all, he'd do six months in jail. That's it six months. The most recent study out of Pakistan is here:

http://www.zeenews.com/znnew/articles.asp?...=LIF&sname= 71% of males feel violence against women is justified. No it's not a religious or cultural issue, sure yep.

Regarding the assertion that we are "Racist" for blaming the teachings of Islam for her death, how utterly retarded. Men like Lazarus are the reason women are being beaten in the name of Islam, he's more concerned with race relation than dealing with violence against women in the name of a God. If we try and discuss barbaric cultural practices it's deemed racist by small minded men like him. The issue of domestic violence get's shoved back into a drawer lest we offend bastards like Lazarus. I am sick to death of posters like him shoving racism down our throats, how is it racist to demand that our immigrants practice our laws and not barbaric cultural practices. Women have very little value to men like Lazarus, race relations is more important to vile men like him.

For some Muslims their faith is their culture, can people not understand that. There is no line of demarcation between the two, they live every aspect of the koran. This type of Islam is often called Wahhabi Islam or Salafism, we cannot cow down to these versions of Islam in democratic countries. If we do we are subjecting women and children to 7th century laws, how dare posters like Lazarus try and shut up dialog on a religion that considers women property and worth half the value of a man. I wish the leftards constantly shouting "Racism" "Racist" would STFU, you are the enemy of every freedom loving female alive.

Here is a link to the most current update: http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/284824

Snippet: When Parvez's home life turned violent this fall, she fled to a shelter, returning home only after receiving a letter from her family. It described how her parents couldn't eat or sleep while she was away and allegedly noted she didn't have to wear her hijab any more if she didn't want to.

Wendy Horton, executive director of Etobicoke's Youth Without Shelter, said that while she's shocked by the level of violence in this situation, she isn't surprised by its root cause. Parents who want their children to remain faithful to old world ways are often at odds with kids growing up in Western society.

"It creates a lot of family tension," Horton said. "And youth finally end up staying with their friends."

After a few weeks at home, Parvez's situation turned dangerous once again and friends helped her find another place to stay earlier this month.

A Peel school board spokesperson said school staff had been aware of conflicts within the family but nobody had any inkling the troubles would lead to a deadly end.

Board spokesperson Sylvia Link said something would have been done if anybody knew the teen had been threatened or had reason to believe she was in any danger.

"That's part of what grief counsellors are helping students and staff deal with — a sense of incredible guilt, that somehow they let her down," she said. "Counsellors are telling them the person responsible for this violent crime is the person who committed this violence.

"Anything they did was based on their understanding

Edited December 12, 2007 by Moxie

[M.Dancer]

Now the girl, especially in an Islamic family, must be pure and prestine. She must be a virgin. pretty, skinny, have a submissive attitude, and be very well educated. The man can be a fat slob and in a bedroom unemployed and he'll STILL be treated like a king because the marriage is not so much for the kids, but rather the parents.

I'm sorry. I call bullshit on this and everything else you have posted in the last 10 years. If it isn't obvious to most it is obvious to me that you are a pathological bullshitter who makes things up on the fly. from the ten zillion immigrant friends you depise to this tid bit of bull excrement.

The plain fact is skinny isn't a non western value. You are full of it.

[August1991]

I hate to defend MikeDavid but I don't agree with the cavalier way in which some posters dismiss his (extreme) viewpoints.

Anyone familiar with Muslims (or Hindus) in Canada will recognize these problems and realize that they are similar but also unlike the problems of other families with teenage kids.

Canadian Muslims condemned the slaying, calling it an extreme and reprehensible perversion of Islam.

But some said the cultural clashes that reportedly precipitated the killing - a teenager's rebellion against her strict, devout father - are playing out within Muslim families across the country and must be addressed.

"This is a wake-up call for law enforcement to tighten its grip on incidents like this," said Farzana Hassan, president of the Muslim Canadian Congress.

"The atmosphere is unfortunately there for something like this to happen again. People from back home are coming to Canada with these very rigid notions of religiosity that makes them do these things - that enrages them to ensure compliance to such an extent."

...

"So many girls are trying to live a faith-based life within a larger secular society," said Ausma Khan, editor-in-chief of Muslim Girl magazine. "They are trying to fit in with friends and stay true to Islamic values. It can be a struggle."

Frustrated parents often phone Saudia Azeez of the social services department at the Islamic Foundation of Toronto with issues that face all parents of teens: missed curfews, slacking grades, too much time spent with a boyfriend, or pregnancy, Ms. Azeez said. Other conflicts are more culturally specific.

"It's unrealistic expectations sometimes," she said. "Parents come to a country and there's really the illusion that their kids are going to be just like them."

...

Tarek Fatah, the outspoken founder of the Muslim Canadian Congress, said this type of violence against women will continue until certain religious leaders quit pressing young woman to wear headscarves.

"I put the blame straight at the feet of people who have made young Muslim girls feel that they are sinners if they don't cover their heads," he said. "How many more Muslim girls have to die before the liberal intelligentsia wakes up and the feminists wake up and say the hijab is a symbol of oppression?"

G & M

This treatment of women is one of the characteristics of a traditional society. It is wrong to pretend otherwise or to confuse it with the forms of sexism found in western societies. There is a world of difference between fundamentalist Muslims and fundamentalist Christians.

Edited December 12, 2007 by August1991

[guyser]

I hate to defend MikeDavid but I don't agree with the cavalier way in which some posters dismiss his (extreme) viewpoints.

If I threw a couple of loonies in pool full of excrement, would it be worth it to go get it? He gets dismissed because he says things,continually, that are full of excrement . It is not worth mining his posts for three truthful words.

He is jealous of immigrants. They have more than him,(recall he was "forced" to buy a house) they live in bigger houses than he does (this girls house was apparently large-md wants to question why he is here-umm cuz they could and they obviosuly did well) , his whole premise is jealousy based.

[Canadian Blue]

I hate to defend MikeDavid but I don't agree with the cavalier way in which some posters dismiss his (extreme) viewpoints.

Anyone familiar with Muslims (or Hindus) in Canada will recognize these problems and realize that they are similar but also unlike the problems of other families with teenage kids.

I agree, but the problem is Mikedavid makes up shit on just about everything.

[DrGreenthumb]

Somehow I knew there would be a MikeDavid thread in here using this incident to push his hatred of non-whites on everyone. Why is it that someone who hates muslims, or east asians so much has 3 ex girlfriends of this particular race? Could it be that like most far-right religious extremeists MikeDavid really wants a woman who is trained from birth to be subservient to men? Is that why you date minorities MikeDavid, especially Muslim minorities? Are white women raised in this country too independant minded for you? I'm not sure why else someone with such a disdain for non-whites would want them as girlfriends. Do you think the fact that you wiull sleep with women of any colour makes you somehow less racist? You remind me of people who when caught using the word "nigger", tell us about their many black friends.

Do not kid yourself people, this is not only the view of muslim fundamentalists, it is actually quite typical of many in the conservative base. For example, in mennonite communities it is quite normal for the women to be subservient to the men. They will not eat until the men are finished eating, they must wear head coverings, and are not to speak without the permission of their husbands. Living in the bible belt I have seen a lot of this first hand. Take a hard look at some of these CHRISTIAN sects and you will see that there a lot of paralells in the way they treat "their" women. How often have you seen a hutterite woman without her head scarf?

As far as I am concerned MikeDavids posts and those of a few others in this thread border on "hate speech".

I can't believe that this racist garbage is allowed to remain up on this board when I get chastised by the owners for using the phrase "Harper's Theocons". I'm not calling anyone that in this post so hopefully just the fact that I used it to describe my disbelief at the tolerance for racist commentary on this board won't get me banned. I guess its ok to attribute negatives to the color of ones skin as long as we don't attribute negatives to the colour of one's political stripe.

[August1991]

If I threw a couple of loonies in pool full of excrement, would it be worth it to go get it? He gets dismissed because he says things,continually, that are full of excrement . It is not worth mining his posts for three truthful words.

Guyser, if you go back and read the G & M linked above providing numerous quotes from various Muslims in Canada, you'll find ideas similar to what MikeDavid expressed.

If families from traditional societies move to Canada, there are bound to be conflicts between parents and teenagers - conflicts that are different than within families born in Canada.

Western civilization has come along way and individuals are now free to choose. Elsewhere in the world, it's not like that. IME, when a family immigrates to Canada from a traditional society, it is women who benefit the most because they gain the most freedom to choose. This is particularly true for traditional Muslim families.

[mikedavid00]

Why would immigrants want to be friends with someone who obviously is ignorant of their values and depises them from the get go?

That's right. I am ignorant of their values. Look what their values got us.

[guyser]

Guyser, if you go back and read the G & M linked above providing numerous quotes from various Muslims in Canada, you'll find ideas similar to what MikeDavid expressed.

Western civilization has come along way and individuals are now free to choose. Elsewhere in the world, it's not like that. IME, when a family immigrates to Canada from a traditional society, it is women who benefit the most because they gain the most freedom to choose. This is particularly true for traditional Muslim families.

And there are muslims who have denounced this action too.

A watch is right for two seconds a day, but the other 23 hours and 58 seconds it is not is worth it?

[Canadian Blue]

That's right. I am ignorant of their values. Look what their values got us.

That makes no sense. Are you then stating that you have no idea what their values are? If you don't know you can't really criticize.

I am still amazed at how much you despise immigrants, yet seem to have numerous friends who are in fact immigrants.

[DrGreenthumb]

"I am still amazed at how much you despise immigrants, yet seem to have numerous friends who are in fact immigrants."

Don't let him fool you Canadian Blue, his immigrant friends are about as real as santa klaus. I believe his stories as much as I believe that Hitler had a lot of "Jewish friends"

[M.Dancer]

One thing that seems to be missed in this thread is the fact that as predicted the children of immigrants, even ultra fundy muslim immigrants tend to towards assimilation.

Unfortunately for this young woman, at first glance it was tragic.

[mikedavid00]

it is far from being a rampant widespread problem he makes it out to be.

I would disagree with that.

Racism and Xenephobia are rampat with minorities in Canada and second gen Canadians to the point where almost 50% of second gen kids do NOT identify themselves as Canadian.

This is a direct result of the parents.

I have many, MANY.. no.. the overwhellming majority of second gen people I know would never marry you because of your skin color, race, religion, or creed.

This ultimately is passed down by the parents.

I would call this racism very, very widespread indeed.

[M.Dancer]

......... and second gen Canadians to the point where almost 50% of second gen kids do NOT identify themselves as Canadian. .

lnkplskthxbye

[guyser]

One thing that seems to be missed in this thread is the fact that as predicted the children of immigrants, even ultra fundy muslim immigrants tend to towards assimilation.

Unfortunately for this young woman, at first glance it was tragic.

Yes , and we alsos see that dad will be in jail.

As for our "pathetic" justice system , which certainly is not pathetic....

http://www.torontosun.com/Comment/Commenta...12/4719815.html

[Guest American Woman]

One thing that seems to be missed in this thread is the fact that as predicted the children of immigrants, even ultra fundy muslim immigrants tend to towards assimilation.

Unfortunately for this young woman, at first glance it was tragic.

I didn't miss it. I said it was understandable that the girl would want to wear western clothing. I also said maybe there should be counselling provided to families from such different cultures to help them make the transition when they emigrate.

[mikedavid00]

This treatment of women is one of the characteristics of a traditional society. It is wrong to pretend otherwise or to confuse it with the forms of sexism found in western societies. There is a world of difference between fundamentalist Muslims and fundamentalist Christians.

I've said before, men forcing women to wear head scarfs is an utter form of child abuse and brainwashing. So much so that we don't even understand how abusive it is becuse it's so foreign to us. Here are men forcing women to cover their hair and stand out (un desiriably) in society, and where are the feminists?

Here we have men forcing women who they will get married to. My own friend from school now living in a basement apt with a husband who is overweight, unatractive, and has health problems. This girl is very, very, pretty and had so much life ahead of her. Now she can't even eat out a resturaunt anymore. She was the same one I couldn't drop off infornt of her home and duck in my car incase her Dad saw me. All that mattered to her family was that he was a Jatt Sikh and the boys parents had a big house.

The girls in Montreal are much, much more integrated I find. I'll be spending time there again the Christmas.

[mikedavid00]

He is jealous of immigrants. They have more than him,(recall he was "forced" to buy a house) they live in bigger houses than he does (this girls house was apparently large-md wants to question why he is here-umm cuz they could and they obviosuly did well) , his whole premise is jealousy based.

Well the tax payers shouldn't be funding their mortgage.

Look, Aqsa getting killed at 16 is a tragedy. The best years of her life just beginning. My heart goes out to her and her friends (NOT HER FAMILY). I'm so hurt and upset over this happening. I'm still in shock and am very upset over all this needless murder. Aqsa represented the good in Canada; a person willing to integrate and not racially discriminate.

She is a true hero in Canada that died for her right to integrate and make her own descisions as a women.

She's a true, true hero and an example to all the young, trapped women in Canada.

God bless her, R.I.P Aqsa

[Guest American Woman]

...the Muslim angle was predominately played in the media because Muslims are todays boogie-men. [...]

I disagree. I think the reference to his being Muslim is being made because it's pertinant to this case. If we deny it, if we ignore it, we are doing nothing to help eliminate the problem. Regardless of how big the problem is, it is a problem and since it involves murder, it's a problem that needs to be dealt with.

This is an interesting article-- Europe Grapples with "Honor Killings" (Excerpts):

Police officials from EU countries met at Europol headquarters on Tuesday to discuss "honor killings," a disturbing problem on the rise in Europe's mainly Middle Eastern, Arabic and Asian immigrant communities.

"Honor killings," as the phenomenon is known, usually involve women being murdered, usually by brothers and fathers, for having sex outside marriage, dating, refusing an arranged marriage, wanting to go to university or even having been raped. The practice is not uncommon in traditional, male-dominated Arab societies.

In a further sign that the phenomenon is being considered a serious problem, European police officials met at Europol headquarters in The Hague on Tuesday with women's organizations, social groups and academics to look at ways of tackling the issue and to exchange information and strategies.

Mürea Böhmecke of Terres des Femmes in Germany, an organization for the protection of women that is beginning a campaign in November to raise awareness of honor killings, told DW-WORLD, "There are no concrete statistics available, but unofficial estimates are considered to be high. We get calls from women caught in difficult situations almost every two weeks."

Experts say the problem is directly linked to the immigrant populations of the European countries.

As for women having less freedom in traditional Muslim families, well I have seen more then a few fundamental Christian families where women are still treated like property and have little actual freedom. [...]

There is no comparison between what you are describing and the oppression that far too many women suffer under Islam. I'm not saying that Islam is evil. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying this is a problem that needs to be dealt with, same as countless other problems have been dealt with to make our western society what it is today.

Edited December 12, 2007 by American Woman

[mikedavid00]

I am still amazed at how much you despise immigrants, yet seem to have numerous friends who are in fact immigrants.

That's the problem though, you think in your mind that I despise immigrants. I don't despise anyone, I despise some of their cultural practices but mostly the effect that it has on our economy and welfare state. You made up the movie in your head how I hate immigrants, but I simply don't.

You can't blame the actual immigrants for taking advantage of the easiest system in the world.

You can't blame the 57 year old Pakistani father doing what he did either to an extent. Honor killings are somewhat valid in the old world. Your family being blacklisted can ruin you and if you take one of your kids out, that 'saves' the name of your family to an extent.

But this means that some cultures simply are not compatible with OUR values. OUR VALUES COME FIRST, NOT THIERS.

Question Period live from house of commons will be on today at 2:15pm. I want to see how the politicians dance around this one. They are COWARDS and will not jeperdize any votes on this matter trust me. Giving more funding is not the answer. We need to be honest and reform our immigration policy. That is the center of this.

[M.Dancer]

It will become an Islamic issue. The victim will be the father, and the perpetrator will be you and I - 'the west'. We caused the man to do this to his daughter.

You can't blame the 57 year old Pakistani father doing what he did either to an extent.

Self fulfilling prophecies.....

[Fortunata]

With all killings we try to find the why. This time it may be (eastern) cultural, others have been cultural too: pro-life proponents, anti-government, people who think prostitutes are evil, the drug culture.

In this case the father phoned to report he had killed his daughter. It sounds as though it was a momentary act of passion built up over time by a lack of understanding of a rebellious daughter as has been mentioned here. This in no way excuses the act and he needs to pay for it, but it doesn't sound as cold blooded and planned as honour killings can sometimes be.

[Guest American Woman]

....It sounds as though it was a momentary act of passion built up over time by a lack of understanding of a rebellious daughter as has been mentioned here. This in no way excuses the act and he needs to pay for it, but it doesn't sound as cold blooded and planned as honour killings can sometimes be.

Krista Garbutt remembers walking down the street with Ms. Parvez earlier this year, when the two of them spotted Ms. Parvez's brother walking toward them. Panicking, the teenager quickly fumbled for her head scarf, trying to put it on. “There were times when we'd be walking down the street and she'd see her brother and she wouldn't be wearing her hijab and she'd have to put it on,” Ms. Garbutt said. “She said, ‘He'll kill me, he'll kill me.' I said, ‘He's not going to kill you,' but she said, ‘Yeah, he will.' And nobody believed it.”

Link

I think it's definitely a possiblity that the thought did cross the father's mind before he commited the act.