Gun Control

[myata]

Do not use car registry as an example. I legally utilize several pickup trucks every day. None are registered or insured. One of them is only 6 months old and a nice vehicle.

If I use them on private property or on ranches or farms or even on many construction site and other privately owned or controlled places - they are not required to have registration - as long as they do not travel on a public road they can be unregistered, unlicensed and un-insured.

Indeed. As numerous incidents of murder-suicide have shown, guns are dangerous even when used in the private spaces. Yet another reason to keep them under tight control. Mandatory registration plus ongoing annual licensing, per gun. With heavy accumulating fines for failure to comply. The times when bunch of kids would take their guns out in the field to shoot gophers, whether good or not, are gone. A risk of kids using it a fight with a deadly outcome by far outweighs any positive influences on their manly charactesitics. Guns are deadly. Their sole purpose is to kill. And the fewer of them are out there - the less is the chance that they'll get into wrong hands.

[Borg]

Indeed. As numerous incidents of murder-suicide have shown, guns are dangerous even when used in the private spaces. Yet another reason to keep them under tight control. Mandatory registration plus ongoing annual licensing, per gun. With heavy accumulating fines for failure to comply. The times when bunch of kids would take their guns out in the field to shoot gophers, whether good or not, are gone. A risk of kids using it a fight with a deadly outcome by far outweighs any positive influences on their manly charactesitics. Guns are deadly. Their sole purpose is to kill. And the fewer of them are out there - the less is the chance that they'll get into wrong hands.

I asked several questions and indeed asked for a solution - you simply continue to spout.

You also ignored examples of other deadly items and social problems.

Another canucklehead perhaps?

Once again you need to get out a bit more to see what the country and indeed the world has to offer. Your apartment is definitely affecting you.

I can see your mind is as closed as your scribing.

Borg

[fellowtraveller]

The link you gave shows a decrease from 2005 on....

All Methods

2005 663

2006 605

Gunfire

2005 223

2006 606

That being said.....raw numbers are misleading what you want are per capita figures

Any way you cut it, in the last five years homicides are up slightly, gun homicides are up sharply.........

If gun control has any effect, should it not be to stabilize or reduce gun homicides. is that not one of the primary goals. to save human life via gun control? doesn't work.

Actually, this whole thread is moot anyway. There are millions of unregistered long guns in Canada, held by people who will not register them in any circumstances. All the talk and all the legislation will not change that reality.

[guyser]

Do not use car registry as an example. I legally utilize several pickup trucks every day. None are registered or insured. One of them is only 6 months old and a nice vehicle.

Borg

How did you come to own an unregistered vehicle?

[White Doors]

I asked several questions and indeed asked for a solution - you simply continue to spout.

You also ignored examples of other deadly items and social problems.

Another canucklehead perhaps?

Once again you need to get out a bit more to see what the country and indeed the world has to offer. Your apartment is definitely affecting you.

I can see your mind is as closed as your scribing.

Borg

Good posts Borg. Nothing will change her mind. She can't compute.

[ScottSA]

There are millions of unregistered long guns in Canada, held by people who will not register them in any circumstances. All the talk and all the legislation will not change that reality.

Make that a 'millions' and 3.

[Borg]

How did you come to own an unregistered vehicle?

When you buy a vehicle it does not need to be registered.

Load it on the flat bed and take it home - or get a temporary transport sticker and drive it home.

In case you never noticed - those vehicles that are registered must be renewed each year - or you can let them expire.

As long as they are not used on public roads registration is not required.

New or used - we run them all unregistered - just an expense we do not pay - because we are off road on private property at all times.

In fact I do not even register the quads - or four wheelers for those in the east. And I do not register the snow machines either. Why bother. It is money to the government and I would rather it stay in my pocket.

In fact they are also ALL uninsured.

Anyone - and I do mean anyone can own an unregistered vehicle. Just do not drive it on a public road system.

Probably not an option for you - but for me? Not only an option, but definitely a requirement. I refuse to give the governments any more money than is absolutely necessary.

A bit side tracked, but it can easily apply to anything - including firearms - the "I love to hate them" tool of the limp wristed left.

Borg

[Oleg Bach]

Make that a 'millions' and 3.

There are a billion unregistered bricks in Canada that can be used to bash in a head - what's next? Taking your kids away from you because you may teach them to think in a manner that is dangerous to stupid people in power? What a farce - if those people who are against guns and people having them had their way - they would have us working for them for 50 cents an hour while they had sex with our wives....people spend to much time attempting to control others - maybe the gun haters - should learn to control themselves - control their hate - these folks are not motivated by love and respect - they want to control you - once they take the guns - they will come for your children and then drop the age of consent....time that the smart people told the dumb covetess jerks to hit the road - I own me and God owns me - the retards don't own me or anyone else - it's a blief system - we actually believe that our politicals are smart - they are not...have a good look at them - do they look intelligent? Need I say more? These creeps will take your guns AND if they could would remove your brain matter if allowed...time to stand up to stupidity and ruthless ambtion that stirs in the minds of true idiots..namely our talentless leaders.

[Borg]

There are a billion unregistered bricks in Canada that can be used to bash in a head - what's next? Taking your kids away from you because you may teach them to think in a manner that is dangerous to stupid people in power? What a farce - if those people who are against guns and people having them had their way - they would have us working for them for 50 cents an hour while they had sex with our wives....people spend to much time attempting to control others - maybe the gun haters - should learn to control themselves - control their hate - these folks are not motivated by love and respect - they want to control you - once they take the guns - they will come for your children and then drop the age of consent....time that the smart people told the dumb covetess jerks to hit the road - I own me and God owns me - the retards don't own me or anyone else - it's a blief system - we actually believe that our politicals are smart - they are not...have a good look at them - do they look intelligent? Need I say more? These creeps will take your guns AND if they could would remove your brain matter if allowed...time to stand up to stupidity and ruthless ambtion that stirs in the minds of true idiots..namely our talentless leaders.

Need you say more?

Nope.

You do not own you and God does not own you - we ALL own you - because we support you with our hard earned dollars.

Now, please go away and pay your taxes.

Borg

[guyser]

When you buy a vehicle it does not need to be registered.

In ONtario it does. Not sure where you are. It may be regd as unplated, but not unregistered entirely.

In fact I do not even register the quads - or four wheelers for those in the east. And I do not register the snow machines either. Why bother. It is money to the government and I would rather it stay in my pocket.

Anywhere in Ont, save for some remote northern areas they must be (snow machines) registered and stickered, the only exception being on your own land exclusively.

In fact they are also ALL uninsured.

For the miniscule amount that costs, for basic coverage that is, I have no idea why you would joepardize all you have worked for.(unless you are rich I suppose)

[Oleg Bach]

Need you say more?

Nope.

You do not own you and God does not own you - we ALL own you - because we support you with our hard earned dollars.

Now, please go away and pay your taxes.

Borg

Hey Borg - I paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in addiction tax - I smoked for 40 years - I paid more than you so hush my dear arrogant friend. ...if you ALL want to own me - go head - put me to work...I don't mind...If you want me to pay taxes then I have to earn the money - find me a job and then - you can bark at me if I do not toss in a few bucks into the public purse - in the mean time - seems you are privledged....you actually believe that everyone is like you and has a million bucks stowed away somewhere - welcome to reality my prestigious brother - some of us have nothing - strange you say - yes - we nothings do exist.. so why don't you set me up to work in one of your establishments - I will do a good job - and by the way - no one owns me - you think that you can own me because I took 25 dollars a week to live on from the gov purse - I am not that cheaply bought - It is I that own you.

[AngusThermopyle]

find me a job

Hmmm, I think perhaps you should consider doing that for yourself.

As for the Black Hats bursting into your home and spiriting your kids away, well, I just don't think that will happen anytime soon. Just as I've never heard of our elected officials enslaving any of us while they do the horizontal mambo with our wives.

[myata]

You also ignored examples of other deadly items and social problems.

None of your examples are relevant because none of the "deadly items" as you refer to them are made for the sole purpose to kill. Yet, many are indeed controlled. Is a gun, in the wrong hangs, as dangerous as a vehicle? No question. Should it be controlled as comprehensively? Most certainly. There must be 15 million cars in this country, and hardly anybody has issues with registering them. Owning a gun is not a right. Yes it'll take time to bring everybody into compliance but it will happen, eventually. And very obviously, Harper isn't interested one bit in doing anything toward it. His ideal appears to be what we see south of the border: have as many guns as can be possibly pumped into the country, then get supertough. We can agree to that, if we want our murder rate 5 times higher, and money spent on keeping 10 times more prisoners instead of investing into tools like gun registry, or social policies to deal with root causes of crime.

I can see your mind is as closed as your scribing.

You can see many things, especially if smoking some of the "deadly items".

[Wilber]

What about Montreal shooting? Recent Mountie shooting by a drunk guy? Another recent shooting of a family in Ottawa? I believe all were committed with legally owned guns. Licensing does not address this one bit, as someone may crack anytime, by which time they may have accumulated multiple weapons. Owning a gun is not a right, it's a privilege. It's a dangerous instrument, even in the licensed owner's hands and many times more if it falls into wrong hands. We now are fully used to registration of cars, though I could imagine there may have been objections at first. Guns shouldn't be any different. Maybe even an annual charge for owning, per gun, to pay for the registry. We aren't living in the 18th century, and it's not Wild wild west around anymore. Guns should be under control. It's primarily a matter of public safety, not private preferences and entertainment.

The issue is whether the gun registry accomplishes anything near to justifying its cost. It doesn't. As you say, all those guns were registered, yet the registry did nothing to stop those killings. Registering cars doesn't keep people from driving drunk, street racing or acts of road rage. If a person steals your car and uses it to commit a crime, you are not liable or guilty of any offense even if you left the keys in it. Most cars used in crimes are registered vehicles stolen for the purpose. There are no restrictions on who can own a motor vehicle and there is no requirement to license one unless it is used on public roads.

Registering a weapon or a car in itself accomplishes next to nothing when it comes to their misuse. I do believe that a lack of a criminal record should be a requirement and a person should have to demonstrate a certain amount of knowledge before they are allowed to own a gun. Like a drivers license or at least something like a small boat operator's certificate. Guns will continue to be available to anyone who really wants them, a registry will do zip to change it. That is why there must be strong penalties for their misuse and by that I mean the mere possession of a weapon in violation of the law, not just committing a crime with it.

[AngusThermopyle]

investing into tools like gun registry, or social policies to deal with root causes of crime.

I'm sorry, I don't quite get what you're saying. Could you explain to me how the Registry addresses the root causes of crime. I think I must have missed it.

[White Doors]

I'm sorry, I don't quite get what you're saying. Could you explain to me how the Registry addresses the root causes of crime. I think I must have missed it.

me too!

[Borg]

In ONtario it does. Not sure where you are. It may be regd as unplated, but not unregistered entirely.

Anywhere in Ont, save for some remote northern areas they must be (snow machines) registered and stickered, the only exception being on your own land exclusively.

For the miniscule amount that costs, for basic coverage that is, I have no idea why you would joepardize all you have worked for.(unless you are rich I suppose)

I am presently in Ont but do tend to spread myself between here and the prairies.

I have more than one lawyer and several accountants at my disposal for guidance in company matters.

I will tell you once more.

As I stated - for use on farm, ranch and private / leased land - we are a large holder of all aformentioned - there does not need to be any registration or licencing.

Do not use public roads and stay on your deeded or leased land - you drive at your own risk with no paper required.

The same for our operations in Alberta and Saskatchewan.

As for insurance - it is a company policy - we use it when we believe it to be of value. Our record is pretty good and we "self insure" with a block of money reserved (side investment) for emergencies.

Borg

[Borg]

None of your examples are relevant because none of the "deadly items" as you refer to them are made for the sole purpose to kill. Yet, many are indeed controlled. Is a gun, in the wrong hangs, as dangerous as a vehicle? No question. Should it be controlled as comprehensively? Most certainly. There must be 15 million cars in this country, and hardly anybody has issues with registering them. Owning a gun is not a right. Yes it'll take time to bring everybody into compliance but it will happen, eventually. And very obviously, Harper isn't interested one bit in doing anything toward it. His ideal appears to be what we see south of the border: have as many guns as can be possibly pumped into the country, then get supertough. We can agree to that, if we want our murder rate 5 times higher, and money spent on keeping 10 times more prisoners instead of investing into tools like gun registry, or social policies to deal with root causes of crime.

You can see many things, especially if smoking some of the "deadly items".

Yes, those knives are also used for preparing food.

Those bats are used for hitting balls and those iron bars are used for welding and manufacturing.

All of the above do more for the murder rate than firearms.

As for smoking - hate to disappoint you - I am drug, alcohol and tobacco free.

Well, I do enjoy a beer or a glass of wine about 5 times a year. And I did smoke a cigar about a month ago - so perhaps I am still under the weather.

I did take some aspirin a while back to help when I wrenched my back.

So I suppose I do use drugs, alcohol and tobacco.

You can keep crying about something that does not matter - unless that billion plus dollars we spend on the registry REALLY matters.

I wonder if we might use it to buy additional MRI's or perhaps additional hospital space? Or what about more infrastructure for our roads? Or a few new schools of perhaps some university scholarships?

Imagine not having to wait for more than a year to have a hip replacement!

Toss the registry and put that money to good use.

And go for a walk once in a while. It will help clear your mind.

Borg

[myata]

I'm sorry, I don't quite get what you're saying. Could you explain to me how the Registry addresses the root causes of crime. I think I must have missed it.

Yeah right, please read it one more time and slowly.

[AngusThermopyle]

Yeah right, please read it one more time and slowly.

I guess you don't want to be helpfull, your answer doesn't answer my question at all. Once again, can you explain how the gun registry addresses the root causes of crime?

[Oleg Bach]

I am presently in Ont but do tend to spread myself between here and the prairies.

I have more than one lawyer and several accountants at my disposal for guidance in company matters.

I will tell you once more.

As I stated - for use on farm, ranch and private / leased land - we are a large holder of all aformentioned - there does not need to be any registration or licencing.

Do not use public roads and stay on your deeded or leased land - you drive at your own risk with no paper required.

The same for our operations in Alberta and Saskatchewan.

As for insurance - it is a company policy - we use it when we believe it to be of value. Our record is pretty good and we "self insure" with a block of money reserved (side investment) for emergencies.

Borg

Jeez Borg - just as I suspected, you are a fancey pants sort of fellow..legalist and bean counters at your disposal - and you are in Ontario...the hub of economic and elite activity. Having said that - and you may sense a tad of resentment for your privledged position that I am sure you worked very hard to obtain - your advice regarding fire arms is totally accurate. It always irks me when I hear our dear leftist lawyer mayor Miller here in Toronto go on about "banning the gun" - for God's sake short arms have always been banned since I could remember. As a kid in rural Ontario - just north of Toronto - the Aurora area - as boy would not even consider going near a gun that was made specifcally to dispatch a human being at close quarters.

Seems now that people killers (short guns) are now becoming an acceptable bit of hardware amoung the poor blacks in Toronto...and the courts who I imagine are staffed by youngsters of urban backgrounds have been watching to much American TV - and actually believe that hand guns are acceptable - there was a time if you were caught with a weapon that was reserved only for law enforcement - that you would never get bail - never! _ The weapon spoke on behalf of itself stating " I am used to kill people and the person in charge of me is ready and prepared to murder" - that was it - you did not walk out of that court - now they prance away as caught with a sling shot..no one caught in an urban environment with a weapon used to dispatch people - should be allowed to walk the streets..

- what happened to our judiciary? Is it warm and fuzzy liberalism? Is it conservative racist judges that release these thugs to kill again? I really don't know - what I do know is the problem is within our courts..someone has given direction to allow the mayhem - I guess a stressed and worried population is easier to control. This is not ecceptable if this is the case..if we have poor managers of society - they should step down and allow those of benevolent and kind action rule....what good is a judge that does not and will not and is not allowed to judge? That is the poison..that we have a judicary that functions strickly on policy - I plodded through the courts and did not see one judge or lawyer capable of or distiguishing the difference between right and wrong - what the hell is that? Call me silly - but we soarly need judges! There are none!

[Borg]

Jeez Borg - just as I suspected, you are a fancey pants sort of fellow..legalist and bean counters at your disposal - and you are in Ontario...the hub of economic and elite activity. Having said that - and you may sense a tad of resentment for your privledged position that I am sure you worked very hard to obtain - your advice regarding fire arms is totally accurate. It always irks me when I hear our dear leftist lawyer mayor Miller here in Toronto go on about "banning the gun" - for God's sake short arms have always been banned since I could remember. As a kid in rural Ontario - just north of Toronto - the Aurora area - as boy would not even consider going near a gun that was made specifcally to dispatch a human being at close quarters.

Seems now that people killers (short guns) are now becoming an acceptable bit of hardware amoung the poor blacks in Toronto...and the courts who I imagine are staffed by youngsters of urban backgrounds have been watching to much American TV - and actually believe that hand guns are acceptable - there was a time if you were caught with a weapon that was reserved only for law enforcement - that you would never get bail - never! _ The weapon spoke on behalf of itself stating " I am used to kill people and the person in charge of me is ready and prepared to murder" - that was it - you did not walk out of that court - now they prance away as caught with a sling shot..no one caught in an urban environment with a weapon used to dispatch people - should be allowed to walk the streets..

- what happened to our judiciary? Is it warm and fuzzy liberalism? Is it conservative racist judges that release these thugs to kill again? I really don't know - what I do know is the problem is within our courts..someone has given direction to allow the mayhem - I guess a stressed and worried population is easier to control. This is not ecceptable if this is the case..if we have poor managers of society - they should step down and allow those of benevolent and kind action rule....what good is a judge that does not and will not and is not allowed to judge? That is the poison..that we have a judicary that functions strickly on policy - I plodded through the courts and did not see one judge or lawyer capable of or distiguishing the difference between right and wrong - what the hell is that? Call me silly - but we soarly need judges! There are none!

You bet - I am a fancy pants. Proud of it.

Mostly Alberta - but presently in lefty Ontario.

But I have the scars from two holes in me from a not too distant land - where I served and was hit not once but twice over the space of slightly more than one year.

It did not even make the back page of the funnies!

Lived in a house with no plumbing, electricity or telephone until I was almost 16.

And I am young enough today to still have young children.

In fact I am younger than you. I have no education to speak of - but a lot of get up and go.

So I EARNED those fancy pants. And I still wear a suit once in a while and get sweat, grease or blood all over me on other days. I can cut calluses from the palm of my hand with a knife - unregistered of course!

Those that work for me have been with me a long time and will not likely ever leave - I do treat them that good. Without them I would be dead in the water. They know it and I know it.

What have you done in the meantime?

Now back to the topic please.

Borg

[myata]

As you say, all those guns were registered, yet the registry did nothing to stop those killings. Registering cars doesn't keep people from driving drunk, street racing or acts of road rage.

It's not supposed to stop anything. It allows police to know who is the owner of any particular gun(s). Supposing someone very well licensed ten years ago, is buying a gun each year. Suppose they suddenly go crack. Gun registry may let police identify such cases (like banks can identify fradulent use of your credit card). Whether it's used to a full extent is a different issue altogether. As of now, it's there. Take it away, and there will be no way to identify a crack who's legally collected a bunch of deadly guns in the basement with god knows what ideas in mind.

If a person steals your car and uses it to commit a crime, you are not liable or guilty of any offense even if you left the keys in it.

Exactly. That's why guns should be tightly under a lock. A stolen car can be used for a pleasure ride, to carry stolen stuff from one place to another. A stolen gun is almost bound to be shot from. There's simply nothing else to be done with it.

I do believe that a lack of a criminal record should be a requirement and a person should have to demonstrate a certain amount of knowledge before they are allowed to own a gun.

Then they can go nuts and use the guns they obtained with legal license to do whatever they feel like? Guns should be registered no question about it. Anybody with more than reasonable number of guns should be talked to, on a regular basis. These just aren't your regular grown up toys.

[Borg]

It's not supposed to stop anything. It allows police to know who is the owner of any particular gun(s). Supposing someone very well licensed ten years ago, is buying a gun each year. Suppose they suddenly go crack. Gun registry may let police identify such cases (like banks can identify fradulent use of your credit card). Whether it's used to a full extent is a different issue altogether. As of now, it's there. Take it away, and there will be no way to identify a crack who's legally collected a bunch of deadly guns in the basement with god knows what ideas in mind.

Exactly. That's why guns should be tightly under a lock. A stolen car can be used for a pleasure ride, to carry stolen stuff from one place to another. A stolen gun is almost bound to be shot from. There's simply nothing else to be done with it.

Then they can go nuts and use the guns they obtained with legal license to do whatever they feel like? Guns should be registered no question about it. Anybody with more than reasonable number of guns should be talked to, on a regular basis. These just aren't your regular grown up toys.

Define "reasonable number" my dear.

Borg

[AngusThermopyle]

Anybody with more than reasonable number of guns

Oh darn! I must have missed it again, I'm sorry. Can you explain to me what a "reasonable number of guns" is? While you're at it you could also explain how the registry addresses the root causes of crime, please.