Gun Control

[jbg]

Isn't it interesting how the social conservatives are so quick to borrow the methods and recepies of their proclaimed worst nemeses? Like drumming up the fear.. Avoiding public discussion, like open fire.. Manipulating and confusing information in whatever way possible... This discussions is a fine example of either and all. Hopefully a good demonstration of what social conservative ideology is all about. And why it's not the direction a strong modern democratic society should be following.

I'm not a conservative, social or otherwise. The US is one of the most heterogenous countries in the world and really the only one that has attempted integration as opposed to segregation, lately labeled "multiculturalism".

That may account for higher reported crime. The various minority groups are in closer interaction with general society.

[myata]

The US is your nemesis. ..

OK, is the same adage again and it signifies that you're out of intelligible arguments, as many before you. I mean you see it and believe it, but just can't prove with facts and numbers. Too bad for them, facts and numbers. Right? See ya in the new year.

[kengs333]

One in six murders in Canada are gang related. By my reckoning that is a minority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder#Canada

Most homicides are connected with some sort of criminal activity, though.

[kengs333]

The gun registry has been a great money laundering scheme. Better than just saying, "Oh -a billion dollars I don't know where it went hyuk-hyuk."

The irony is that Harper comes to power and starts blowing big money on new toys for the military.

[Wilber]

The irony is that Harper comes to power and starts blowing big money on new toys for the military.

How is that an irony?

[CandianWatcher]

Bad guys use guns to kill people, lets get rid of the guns, period, oh why we are at it, more people are killed by cars, so lets get rid of cars too.

The gun registry is a tax on hard working law abiding citizens, it does nothing to curb some one killing with a gun, the bad guys don't register a gun before they use it, the hand gun registry is proof of that.

[myata]

Looks like "gun lobby" here are fully and thoroughly out of ideas, and just keep repeating platitudes that's been already addressed (and multiple times).

Here's one more time a round up the discussion and typical arguments used by pro-gun folks. Please, please find your answer below, and refrain from posting unless you have at least a grain of new thought in your argument, or of course, some new and verifiable information.

- gun registry costs a fortune;

> wrong. Now that it's implemented it costs a bare triffle (as federal expenses go) to operate;

- gun registry is useless;

> wrong. Two largest associations of crime fighting professionals (police) support gun registry;

- long guns are barely used in any crime;

> wrong. Long guns are involved in approximately 30% of homicides

- Canada needs to put more people in jail;

> wrong. Canada's incarceration rate is already one of the highest in the developed world. Increasing it by just 20% would bring Canada to the second place in the world, after the US.

- putting more people in jails results in less crime;

> wrong. Crime statistics show that countries with higher incarceration rates also have higher rates of serious crime. Canada's crime rate is on level with most developed countries.

- Canada's sentensing regime for serious offences is too lenient;

> no evidence of any kind ever given;

- instead of spending money on gun control, we should spend them on sending (and keeping) more criminals in jail.

> wrong. US has a loose gun control and highest incarceration rate in the world. It also has highest serious crime rate amoung the developed countries.

- I don't care about your numbers, I know that gun control is wrong! It's morally right to give a gun to everybody so that they can defend themselves from the evil around, and jail, ..., etc those criminals as they do in hell.

> ... no comments

[Wilber]

60% of gun related homicides are committed with handguns, most of them illegal, an issue you flatly refuse to address. Unitil you do, it is like talking to a rock.

[myata]

60% of gun related homicides are committed with handguns, most of them illegal, an issue you flatly refuse to address. Unitil you do, it is like talking to a rock.

Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at? Can you express your thoughts in a clearer way? I'm sure that once you do that, you'll find the answer above.

Perhaps, you mean to say that handgun registry costs us too much and should be abandoned? After all, only a fraction of those used in crime are of "legal origin"? See #7 (from top) in the earlier post.

[Wild Bill]

Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at? Can you express your thoughts in a clearer way? I'm sure that once you do that, you'll find the answer above.

Perhaps, you mean to say that handgun registry costs us too much and should be abandoned? After all, only a fraction of those used in crime are of "legal origin"? See #7 (from top) in the earlier post.

Well, I didn't see the answer above! More than that, I don't accept all your answers as gospel.

And I don't see anyone calling for having no registration whatsoever, either. I don't think we've had such a situation since the days of flintlocks, anyway.

I think the point you never seem to address is that all the ramifications of your supporting points deal with the minor aspects of gun crime. By far the biggest issue is illegal guns in the hands of criminals. So far no government but particularly the previous Liberals seems to even want to talk about this, much less do anything.

So that makes those of us branded as "gun nuts" by folks like yourself very cynical. We want to see serious moves against criminals FIRST before we will believe that a group or government is truly serious about making us all safer from the illegal use of guns. All we ever seem to see are lenient sentences and programs that only law-abiding citizens honour. To us it seems that by supporting the Liberal style of gun registry we are taking part in a big "touchy-feely we are all together" diversion that wastes resources in feeling good and ignores actually DOING good! Politicians take credit, law-abiding gun owners are taxed and inconveniened and actual criminals are not affected in any new way at all.

That is the perception of those who oppose your argument. Until you address these points you are not going to change any of their minds.

Especially by scolding!

[Wilber]

Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at? Can you express your thoughts in a clearer way? I'm sure that once you do that, you'll find the answer above.

Perhaps, you mean to say that handgun registry costs us too much and should be abandoned? After all, only a fraction of those used in crime are of "legal origin"? See #7 (from top) in the earlier post.

Like I said, a hard, heavy inanimate object with no brain. The causes or solutions to 60% of gun homicides have no relevance to you. Hand guns have been restricted and registered since the 1930's yet are responsible for 60% of gun related homicides. How does a long gun registry adress that? How would you address that? Don't have clue do you, because you refuse to do so.

[AngusThermopyle]

The irony is that Harper comes to power and starts blowing big money on new toys for the military.

Yay! A new contender for most stupid statement in the thread so far!

Now, would you care to explain to all of us how he is "blowing" money? Next you can explain how the necessary tools to do the job can be considered "toys".

Then perhaps you can clarify the "irony" part of your statement.

Perhaps you would prefer the good old days of the Liberals when all they did was cut the budget and leave the guys under equipped and ill paid. Not to mention making Canada a laughing stock among the NATO nations.

After all, the plight of a serviceman doesn't affect you in any way so why should you care?

[myata]

Like I said, a hard, heavy inanimate object with no brain.

Looking in the mirror?

The causes or solutions to 60% of gun homicides have no relevance to you. Hand guns have been restricted and registered since the 1930's yet are responsible for 60% of gun related homicides. How does a long gun registry adress that?

One more time and slowly, specially for you. Comprehensive system of gun control does not eliminate gun crime. Only makes it harder for the guns to get into the wrong hands. Mostly by reducing general number of guns in the public. Also by providing means to follow, remove and identify guns used in a crime. I understand, it's challenging for a social conservative mind to grasp that some problems will require complex long term less than perfect solutions, and, sorry to break it to you, but crime is one of those. It was with us since times immemorial, is recorded in your bible and will probably be with us till end.

If in your imagination there's a magic button one will press and voila - problem solved, it's only there, in your imagination. In the real world, things are painted in shades, and numbers. And numbers are saying clearly to everybody except entreched social conservatives who simply refuse to accept the reality, that countries with loose gun ownership, and over tough justice, are also the countries with the highest levels of crime. Go ahead, keep ignoring the reality - there isn't much else you can do. Short of changing things to follow your view of how the things should be (US has the lowest crime in the world! with 5.2 guns per household (number real)) but you'll need a magic wand for that.

[myata]

.. By far the biggest issue is illegal guns in the hands of criminals. So far no government but particularly the previous Liberals seems to even want to talk about this, much less do anything.

No, wait a sec - I'm sorry to repeat it again, but there was this proposed law to require marking the imported guns that was very quietly dropped by this Harpers government, with no comments, as usual. It was also recommended by the police (feel free to find information on the Net) because it would simplify identification of illegal guns smuggled in the country. I'm sure there're more efficient ways yada yada, but he seemed to forget to share it with us. Care to break it - one x - times - what is this conservative government's fresh ideas on how to do just that, i.e., control the illegal guns?

Finally, only those with open mind can change their views, based on arguments of logic and reason. For them, much good information was found in this thread, by many participants. If one chooses to ignore the reality, I'm not sure if much (anything?) can be done for them. Tough case.

[Moxie]

60% of gun related homicides are committed with handguns, most of them illegal, an issue you flatly refuse to address. Unitil you do, it is like talking to a rock.

Her mania at over statements is rather amusing, it's apparent she is a liberal to the bone thus she believes the propaganda that "Legal Guns Kill" and illegal ones aren't the problem. The slimy scum sucking crims love people like her it helps them re-arm and kill innocents. The police spend so much time and energy going after hunters they don't have time to go after gangs of killers. Alas it's the liberal way, subjecting innocent gun owners to red tape while the scum roam at will. Lest we offend the scum, let us not forget that little gem.

[Wild Bill]

No, wait a sec - I'm sorry to repeat it again, but there was this proposed law to require marking the imported guns that was very quietly dropped by this Harpers government, with no comments, as usual. It was also recommended by the police (feel free to find information on the Net) because it would simplify identification of illegal guns smuggled in the country. I'm sure there're more efficient ways yada yada, but he seemed to forget to share it with us. Care to break it - one x - times - what is this conservative government's fresh ideas on how to do just that, i.e., control the illegal guns?

Finally, only those with open mind can change their views, based on arguments of logic and reason. For them, much good information was found in this thread, by many participants. If one chooses to ignore the reality, I'm not sure if much (anything?) can be done for them. Tough case.

Marking? Do they not already have serial numbers? You imply that they are unmarked in any way. And the police recommend any and all proposed laws. The more the better, in their philosophy. It gives them more choices and they obviously couldn't care less if the money spent is cost-effective. Just give them more and bigger clubs, I guess!

Then they can choose to ignore such laws, if they choose. Just ask the citizens of Caledonia.

I'm sorry but as an Ontario resident my faith in the police has been severely shattered. I've had a personal experience with police in collusion with illegal body shop practices that opened my eyes but Caledonia showed me that they could take the rule of law away from an entire town if they chose!

It might surprise you but I'm also disappointed with the Harper government over this issue. I want them to make mandatory sentences for using guns illegally in commission of crimes! Perhaps a guaranteed five years for carrying one into a variety store with intent to rob and 10 years if you actually brandish it! No plea bargain. No sentences served concurrently instead of consecutive (like we just saw with that animal in British Columbia. Once again we are reminded that in Canada after you kill one victim all the rest are free). And no special protection in prison either. Why should all taxpayers have to pay? If a judge chooses to give a light sentence for terrorizing some poor clerk at least the gun portion would be out of his control and mandatory.

I understand that Harper has a minority government and it's a virtual certainty that the opposition parties would oppose any such moves, given their previous histories. Still, it would be nice to see him make the effort. Besides, if he moved quickly Dion would no doubt vote with him out of fear of going into an election broke and with an organization in tatters. It might actually get passed!

If more gun toting criminals were added to our prison populations I would cheerfully accept the increase in my taxes! Lord knows I've been paying for many things I don't approve, like canoe museums and golf courses in Shawinigan...

[Wilber]

The police spend so much time and energy going after hunters they don't have time to go after gangs of killers.

Actually they don't, they are too busy dealing with armed criminals to be bothered with hunters.

It was also recommended by the police (feel free to find information on the Net) because it would simplify identification of illegal guns smuggled in the country.

Simplify identification maybe but just another band aid. It wouldn't stop them from coming in or deal with the people who use them. If you don't have a permit with the serial number of the gun, it is illegal. If you grind the serial number off, it is illegal. If you are in violation of the permit you were issued for a particular gun, it amounts to the same thing.

You haven't figured out yet that you can't control illegal guns with more legislation, that is why they are already illegal. If the law that makes them illegal has no teeth, all the hot air in the world won't compensate.

Bill C68 which brought in the registry also included severe penalties for the illegal possession and use of firearms. The government only implemented the registry, the rest was typical Liberal hot air. A bunch of airy fairy maximums they had no intention of enforcing. Business as usual in the courts, more and more illegal weapons on the street. A bad joke on the public and the police.

[capricorn]

A bad joke on the public and the police.

Speaking of pulling a fast one on the government and the gun registry, a man in Ottawa actually registered his electric drill. The public servants registered the drill and added the drill to the gun registry. This is true. I looked for a net link but couldn't find it.

[noahbody]

- gun registry costs a fortune;

> wrong. Now that it's implemented it costs a bare triffle (as federal expenses go) to operate;

$25 million a bare triffle? And for what? It works out to more than $2 million per homicide committed with a registered long gun. You have to be a complete moron to think it's a good idea.

- gun registry is useless;

> wrong. Two largest associations of crime fighting professionals (police) support gun registry;

Yes they say it's useful. Other police/associations say it isn't worthwhile. There's a difference.

- long guns are barely used in any crime;

> wrong. Long guns are involved in approximately 30% of homicides

What part of only 2% homicides have been committed using registered long guns do you not understand? Registered long guns are not the problem.

- Canada needs to put more people in jail;

> wrong. Canada's incarceration rate is already one of the highest in the developed world. Increasing it by just 20% would bring Canada to the second place in the world, after the US.

What's your point?

- putting more people in jails results in less crime;

> wrong. Crime statistics show that countries with higher incarceration rates also have higher rates of serious crime. Canada's crime rate is on level with most developed countries.

If you're referring to mandatory sentences, it would increase the incarceration rate ifthose committing gun crimes are not seeing any jail time. If they aren't it answers your next question.

-

Canada's sentensing regime for serious offences is too lenient;

> no evidence of any kind ever given;

Federal Admissions

Since November 1994, about 34,200 new offenders have been admitted to federal institutions:

Roughly 9 out of 10 offenders admitted to federal institutions have a previous youth or adult court conviction.

24% of these federal offenders have served a prior sentence in a Young Offender secure custody facility. 68% have served a prior sentence in an adult Provincial prison, and when combined, 87% have served either a previous Young Offender or adult provincial prison sentence.

26% have served a previous federal prison sentence.

http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/faits/facts08-02_e.shtml

- instead of spending money on gun control, we should spend them on sending (and keeping) more criminals in jail.

> wrong. US has a loose gun control and highest incarceration rate in the world. It also has highest serious crime rate amoung the developed countries.

Why do you not include jail time in your comprehesive gun control regime? It makes it more comprehensive.

- I don't care about your numbers, I know that gun control is wrong! It's morally right to give a gun to everybody so that they can defend themselves from the evil around, and jail, ..., etc those criminals as they do in hell.

The numbers don't support the long gun registry. Why do criminals get to go where it's warm?

[myata]

$25 million a bare triffle? And for what? It works out to more than $2 million per homicide committed with a registered long gun. You have to be a complete moron to think it's a good idea.

My, and how did you arrive at the number, care to share? 30% of 600 = 200; 25,000,000 / 200 = 100,000. Of by a factor of 20; no wonder you guys are having problems with any advanced concepts above 5th grade. And who is that, you know, m-word, here, I wonder?

Yes they say it's useful. Other police/associations say it isn't worthwhile. There's a difference.

Yes but these are two largest associations, one of them being country-wide. Getting the difference, yet?

What part of only 2% homicides have been committed using registered long guns do you not understand? Registered long guns are not the problem.

Long gun registry only just started to operate, one cannot expect these initial numbers to be accurate. Even more so as some provinces, and now even federal government, have refused to enforce registration. The bottom line is, comprehensive gun control is impossible if long guns are left out. Does Canada need comprehensive gun control?

Roughly 9 out of 10 offenders admitted to federal institutions have a previous youth or adult court conviction.

24% of these federal offenders have served a prior sentence in a Young Offender secure custody facility. 68% have served a prior sentence in an adult Provincial prison, and when combined, 87% have served either a previous Young Offender or adult provincial prison sentence.

26% have served a previous federal prison sentence.

And? What does it prove?

Why do you not include jail time in your comprehesive gun control regime? It makes it more comprehensive.

Because Canada's incarceration rate is already one of the highest among the developed countries. There's no need to increase it even further, perhaps, bringing us to the second place only to the US with their sky high crime levels, until it's clearly demonstrated that the current sentencing regime is inadequate. And the evidence is simply not forthcoming.

The numbers don't support the long gun registry. Why do criminals get to go where it's warm?

That's what you're saying. The numbers show very clearly that comprehensive gun control regime combined with specific targeted measures and differentiated sentencing, is the way to go. US model is very obviously failing, it costs more and has much higher level of crime, and still that is what the social conservative crowd is driving for against all reason. Unless they count that lots of guns and much more crime will create a climate of fear in which they may hope to get elected more often - a la the big brother south.

[sideshow]

Ban all guns except for law enforcement. That way there wont be any legal guns for thieves to steal. 99.999999999999999999% of people dont need a gun. The few that do, let them apply for special permits.

[AngusThermopyle]

Because Canada's incarceration rate is already one of the highest among the developed countries. There's no need to increase it even further

I agree, lets not increase it. From now on we should have a moratorium on all sentencing of criminals that will involve incarceration. That way we can lower our incarceration rate.

(For those who don't know, that was sarcastic.)

[Wilber]

Because Canada's incarceration rate is already one of the highest among the developed countries. There's no need to increase it even further, perhaps, bringing us to the second place only to the US with their sky high crime levels, until it's clearly demonstrated that the current sentencing regime is inadequate. And the evidence is simply not forthcoming.

Ask any cop if he thinks the current sentencing regime is inadequate. Don't be surprised if he looks at you like you are an idiot.

I take it that you are not in favour of incarcerating people who commit crimes with guns. I take it you are not in favour of incarcerating those who carry illegal weapons. Who are you in favour of incarcerating? I hate to break it to you but people who possess illegal weapons are dangerous. What do you propose to do about them? Forget the US for once and talk about Canada, your country. What would you do with the people who carry the illegal weapons which cause 60% of the gun related homicides in your country? I have asked this question several times and you continue to ignore it. I don't expect this time to be any different.

[noahbody]

My, and how did you arrive at the number, care to share? 30% of 600 = 200; 25,000,000 / 200 = 100,000. Of by a factor of 20; no wonder you guys are having problems with any advanced concepts above 5th grade.

I think most 5th graders would tell you that 30% of 600 is 180, not 200. They might add that 25 million divided by 200 is 125,000, not 100,000. Now pay attention, you might learn something:

How I arrived at the number is I took 100 million (cost of four years) divided by 47 (number of homicides with registered long guns from 2003-2006). That works out to over $2 million per registered long gun homicide.

There are nearly 7 million registered long-guns in Canada. Yet of 2,441 homicides recorded in Canada since mandatory long-gun registration was introduced in 2003, fewer than 2 percent (47) were committed with rifles and shotguns known to have been registered. (Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics).

[FTA Lawyer]

It might surprise you but I'm also disappointed with the Harper government over this issue. I want them to make mandatory sentences for using guns illegally in commission of crimes! Perhaps a guaranteed five years for carrying one into a variety store with intent to rob and 10 years if you actually brandish it! No plea bargain. No sentences served concurrently instead of consecutive (like we just saw with that animal in British Columbia. Once again we are reminded that in Canada after you kill one victim all the rest are free). And no special protection in prison either. Why should all taxpayers have to pay? If a judge chooses to give a light sentence for terrorizing some poor clerk at least the gun portion would be out of his control and mandatory.

I understand that Harper has a minority government and it's a virtual certainty that the opposition parties would oppose any such moves, given their previous histories. Still, it would be nice to see him make the effort. Besides, if he moved quickly Dion would no doubt vote with him out of fear of going into an election broke and with an organization in tatters. It might actually get passed!

If more gun toting criminals were added to our prison populations I would cheerfully accept the increase in my taxes! Lord knows I've been paying for many things I don't approve, like canoe museums and golf courses in Shawinigan...

I have to admit that I have not kept up with all of the posts on this thread, but if they are as well-informed as this one, then what this board is accomplishing is to prove how ignorant our populace is about this issue.

Instead of all of the bloody bickering about what everybody should do, maybe we should pause for one fraction of a second, remind ourselves to breathe in and out to replenish the oxygen in our brains, and realize that the gun control we have is strict, the penalties for gun crimes harsh, and when viewed objectively, we don't have a gun crime problem in this country which justifies billions of dollars blown on an incomplete inventory list.

While Wild Bill appears to want higher actual sentences (robbery with a firearm is automatic 4 years presently), he appears to have no idea whatsoever that we do have mandatory minimum sentences for gun crimes. We have special sections of the Criminal Code for using a gun or an imitation of a gun in a crime which will get you guaranteed jail...consecutive not concurrent...no discretion in the judge.

We have definitions in the Criminal Code that deem most of the bb-guns that they sell at Canadian Tire (and other such retailers) "firearms" for the purposes of these offences, even though they are not firearms that need to be registered and can be sold to anyone (no license required).

F--k, if we put as much effort into crime prevention as we do into lobbying for laws we already have we'd have no crime at all!

FTA