1 in 5 people in Canada are now immigrants

[Lazarus]

Yup to the last conclusion. They ought not come here.

Since when did Canadians get so suckered in by multicult that they want immigration for immigration's sake? Sure, it's fine to have all these allegedly hard working "new" canadians while the job market is hot and the economy booming, but unfortunately through the immigration process, they...well...don't go home. If asking that question, and pointing out to you that you specific stories are irrelevant to the general theme, is "close-minded, then I can only suggest that being open minded is akin to having a leaky bucket perched atop one's neck.

Multicult? Is that a new derogatory term coin by the anti-immigration, anti-ethnics talking head brigades? Let me ask you a question Scott, where did you descendant come from originally? When did they arrive? And why did they leave their homeland to come here in the first place?

Fact is, Canada is a nation build on immigration. Immigrants came here and built a new life for themselves, now their descendants want to slam the door shut on anyone else, keeping them from coming here and doing the same, unless of course they are from the old country right? Or are at least the right skin tone and heritage.

I have friend who sixth generation Chinese-Canadian, his immigrant forefather helped build the Trans-Canada Railway. I am a first generation Canadian, came over as a babe. But note, even though I was not born here, I am a Canadian, my bud who because of his Chinese Heritage is still considered to be a Chinese-Canadian.

A co-worker of mine is Japanese-Canadian whose Great Grandfather, an immigrant fought with the Canadian Army in the trenches of WWI, is still asked "Where are you from originally?" Want to explain that to me? The guy is fourth generation Canadian, can't speak a work of Nihon-go, hell I speak more Japanese then he does, and yet he is still looked upon as a foreigner in his own land while I, an actual immigrant am considered to be pure Canadian, just because of my ethnic background.

The fact of the matter is, it is not that easy to get into Canada and the majority of those that do come here to build a new life for themselves and their family and are ready and willing to contribute to our country, often more so then so-called native (native, not first nations) born. Not unlike your descendants did.

Edited December 5, 2007 by Lazarus

[RB]

I am in the job section of the marketplace and can say for this week alone I met up with about 3 frustrated folks born in Canada, parents born in Canada and they are simply mistaken for immigrants and treated as if they have multiple deficiencies.

They revealed that they met outfits to service Canadians populated with "immigrants". Well, the stats reveal why 1 in 5 people, hey, in Toronto 50%. The frustration stem from if you were a Canadian born accessing the programs, you had to listen and share the immigrant experience as if you came from someplace else. The outfits would process a Canadian born aka as immigrant.

I mean is this what they meant when they keep saying Canada is a land of immigrants?

Based on the immigrant numbers I can now deduce our social programs are more geared towards assisting people with language difficulties, Canadian culture deficits, Canadian labor market enhancements, skills training, job re-training etc.

If you are Canadian today, a real sorry scenario exists.

[kengs333]

I've read through this thread in amazed disbelief. Since when did Canada and Canadians become such closed minded, closed hearted and ignorant gits?

No, I think you've got things mixed up a bit: you should really be asking "Since when did Canada and Canadians [want to] become... closed minded, closed hearted and ignorant gits?" Not wanting certain groups or ideas to enter a society is not always indicative of intolerance and bigotry--sometimes it is actually better for the society in question.

Seems a vast number of you here believe that all non-white non-western European immigrants are only here to suck off our social welfare teat. That it is a piece of cake immigrating here. That the majority of non-white non-western European immigrants are a net loss to Canada as a whole. One gets the feeling many of you would just love to slam the door shut on these "undesirable" non-white non-western European immigrants.

No, it has nothing to do with "undesirables" in a racial sense as you would have it, rather there is a problem with the agenda that certain groups have. Moreover, at some point immigration simply has to stop and Canada's society has to grow and evolve on its own. One aspect of a functional society is the ability of a citizen to go anywhere they want to and to be able to communicate and function wherever they go in that society. Allowing 250,000 people--regardless of where they come from--a year to enter a country of only 30 million is really causing certain regions to become balkanized. Not to mention the fact that Canada is slowly being fractured through the landclaims process, as well.

[kengs333]

I am in the job section of the marketplace and can say for this week alone I met up with about 3 frustrated folks born in Canada, parents born in Canada and they are simply mistaken for immigrants and treated as if they have multiple deficiencies.

They revealed that they met outfits to service Canadians populated with "immigrants". Well, the stats reveal why 1 in 5 people, hey, in Toronto 50%. The frustration stem from if you were a Canadian born accessing the programs, you had to listen and share the immigrant experience as if you came from someplace else. The outfits would process a Canadian born aka as immigrant.

I mean is this what they meant when they keep saying Canada is a land of immigrants?

Based on the immigrant numbers I can now deduce our social programs are more geared towards assisting people with language difficulties, Canadian culture deficits, Canadian labor market enhancements, skills training, job re-training etc.

If you are Canadian today, a real sorry scenario exists.

If we stopped allowing mass immigration for a generation eventually we'd get to the point where the vast majority of people under the age of 25 would be Canadians regardless of ethnicity, and so that stupid hang-up of assuming visible minorities are foreigners would no longer be a problem.

[Wild Bill]

Seein a LOT of assumptions in this thread that I just have to question?

First off, shouldn't immigration be geared to those jobs for which we lack people? Are we letting in excesses in areas where we have no lack of people here already? I mean, it does seem wasteful not to honour engineering or professional degrees but are we paying any attention at all in the immigration system as to which ones we actually need?

Has anyone considered that the typical immigrant of today may not be the same as that who came just after WWII? Those indeed where hard working folks who build this country during a period of large and rapid growth. Are we experiencing the same growth today, except for Alberta? Are immigrants even trying to settle into Alberta, or are they still heading for Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal?

What is the ratio today of workers vs. family reunification in immigration? In the late 80's it was ridiculously high. Something well over half was family and extended family. I've got the StatsCan figure around somewhere and can post it later, if anyone wants to pick at the number and ignore the point. Grandmothers don't build houses.

Perhaps we should also consider that excessive immigration can really keep wages lower. People would not be getting the wages they do in Calgary and Edmonton if there wasn't such an oil boom sucking up all available workers. Not enough workers may be a problem for an oil country but perhaps it helps the lower paid sector here at home to get a better wage.

Issues of race to the mix are irrelevant, of course. Culture may not always be so. It's naive to assume that all cultures are equally "nice" and all their attributes will integrate perfectly into our domestic society. This is one negative to shunning the melting pot concept. Toronto used to be a far cleaner society than it is today. 30 years ago it was common to hear some American movie star or whatever exclaiming on the news at how clean the streets were in Toronto. That was part of our culture to keep the streets clean. Then we experienced massive immigration from many countries where they may not have even had streets! These people were not used to using waste baskets. They also came in sufficient numbers that they had less contact with "native" Torontonians and were not likely to learn that particular mores of street cleanliness.

Before the flame begins about that last point I'd like to point out that I'm well aware that many immigrants to Toronto were perhaps cleaner than the existing citizenry. It's just it's obvious that something caused the streets to now look so dirty! Perhaps we got a lot of immigrants from New York. That city was never the cleanest, if I recall.

I will also concede myself that Toronto's penchant for leftwing, impractical councils might also be a factor. They tend to put fewer waste baskets on the streets as a way to cut garbage removal costs, just as Bob Rae limited the number of medical students thinking fewer doctors would mean lower OHIP billings.

Anyhow, I will state that I believe that while immigration should be colourblind we also have no obligation other than our own needs as Canadians in how we run our immigration system. If we need doctors then allow doctors in.

That's not to say that we should accept any other country's degree as equal to a Canadian one. It would be naive to think that a doctor trained in another country would ALWAYS be on a par with one trained here. At the same time, many of the barriers put up by Canadian barrier groups don't seem to really be about the quality of education and training. They look more like simple guild-style protectionism! Professionals well understand that the fewer of them there are the more money they can command!

Anyhow, just thought I'd toss these out. When I see unsupported premises taken as gospel I just can't stay with an argument. Even if every one of my points is refuted that's fine. At least then I'll know that everyone is not talking through their hat!

[Michael Hardner]

In all fairness, though, I think we should be finding people who are more interested in becoming Canadians, though. I'm not saying that all people who immigrate from China or who are Muslims don't have this intention

Kengs,

Read those sentences together and understand: a Canadian citizen is a Canadian. An immigrant is, by definition, interested in becoming Canadian.

Any other snow frosted dreams of lumberjacks and fishermen casting nets are clouding your understanding.

[Michael Hardner]

I'm pretty sure an stats you have posted were disected and found wanting, maiunly becuase you either misapplied them or didn't understand them. I believe Hardner did journeymans work on that already so dredging up why you were wrong then would simply be redundant

Keep in mind posters like Leafless and MikeDavid have, in the past, expressed disdain for the use of statistics (otherwise known as facts and evidence).

Essentially they are saying - 'I am the source of facts'. You can't argue with such people, and so I am trying not to.

[DrGreenthumb]

I just hope that a lot of new Canadians are reading this board and seeing for themselves the mentality of the conservative base. Then they can help us vote out these kind of neanderthals in the next federal election. Do you get a white hood with your conservative party membership?

[M.Dancer]

Your responses are unacceptable.

Go to hell Dancer!

Sorry mate if the truth hurts but those are the facts. I could always make up new facts, but then I would have to change my name to Leafless2.

[guyser]

I've read through this thread in amazed disbelief. Since when did Canada and Canadians become such closed minded, closed hearted and ignorant gits?

No worries. It is like it always is, some are scared all the time by the little brown man and/or any other immigrant type.

They will always ask for proof of why we need them, but rarely, if ever, offer up any proof as to why we dont.

"They" want to keep discussing in the "feelings" mode.

And what is funny is that most of the anti's dont live in Mtl TO or Van . Oh well, be scared.

Edited December 5, 2007 by guyser

[Higgly]

What? Them bloody Newfies annoying you again?

[Higgly]

My mind is made up and proof was previously presented that there is no net contribution to Canadian society by Canadian immigrants.

IOW, they use more resources than what they pay in taxes. Talk about impoverished.

Has it not ever been so? What is your time line? What is the value now of land granted for free, or at most a pittance, to immigrants in the early years of the 20th century?

Canada needs people. How long do you think we can grow our economy with a population less than many European countries (and some US states) and a collection of DINK (Double Income No Kids) families?

I see posts here that complain because we pay more, even with the dollar at par. Well that is a factor of our much smaller and less efficient market.

I say welcome! Enjoy! SEND YOUR KIDS TO SCHOOL!!!

These people work hard. Right now a lot of them are out in Alberta. They can't believe how good they've got it and they are working their butts off. Do you think the economy of Alberta could survive without them?

What's wrong with that?

Did you want somebody to shut the door before your ancestors arrived?

[M.Dancer]

Has it not ever been so? What is your time line? What is the value now of land granted for free, or at most a pittance, to immigrants in the early years of the 20th century?

we are not even at a historical high? Less than 20% Largest % in 75 years.....I bet it was way higher in the 1920s ......when every one was complaining about the Micks, the Macs, the Wops and the Jews.....

Oh to be in those halcyon days, when Papa railed against the Swedes and their willingness to work for slave wages, their broad tanned muscular backs straining against the resistance of the saws, as cord after cord of hard wood was stacked against the coming winter and they would wipe their sweaty high brows with deliberate motions as if wiping away the cares of the world, their clear sky blue eyes set against their chiseled sun-burnt cheeks staring out into the distance as if looking across the Jordon river into the promised land, or perhaps Mrs Lundstrom, who was careless with the blinds. Sven and Bjorn would work tirelessly till the whistle blew and off thet would go, arm in arm as only true northern Europeans who have bonded together against adversity, to have a small beer and share a large meaty sausage, and send their saving which their scandinavian frugality is almost every penny, home to Bestapapa so He could come to the promised land too

And there women were okay too......

Edited December 5, 2007 by M.Dancer

[Higgly]

we are not even at a historical high? Less than 20% Largest % in 75 years.....I bet it was way higher in the 1920s ......when every one was complaining about the Micks, the Macs, the Wops and the Jews.....

Oh to be in those halcyon days, when Papa railed against the Swedes and their willingness to work for slave wages, their broad tanned muscular backs straining against the resistance of the saws, as cord after cord of hard wood was stacked against the coming winter and they would wipe their sweaty high brows with deliberate motions as if wiping away the cares of the world, their clear sky blue eyes set against their chiseled sun-burnt cheeks staring out into the distance as if looking across the Jordon river into the promised land, or perhaps Mrs Lundstrom, who was careless with the blinds. Sven and Bjorn would work tirelessly till the whistle blew and off thet would go, arm in arm as only true northern Europeans who have bonded together against adversity, to have a small beer and share a large meaty sausage, and send their saving which their scandinavian frugality is almost every penny, home to Bestapapa so He could come to the promised land too

And there women were okay too......

Let's not forget the Finns, the Ukes, the Krauts, the Polacks....

[Moxie]

Seein a LOT of assumptions in this thread that I just have to question?

First off, shouldn't immigration be geared to those jobs for which we lack people? Are we letting in excesses in areas where we have no lack of people here already? I mean, it does seem wasteful not to honour engineering or professional degrees but are we paying any attention at all in the immigration system as to which ones we actually need?

Has anyone considered that the typical immigrant of today may not be the same as that who came just after WWII? Those indeed where hard working folks who build this country during a period of large and rapid growth. Are we experiencing the same growth today, except for Alberta? Are immigrants even trying to settle into Alberta, or are they still heading for Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal?

What is the ratio today of workers vs. family reunification in immigration? In the late 80's it was ridiculously high. Something well over half was family and extended family. I've got the StatsCan figure around somewhere and can post it later, if anyone wants to pick at the number and ignore the point. Grandmothers don't build houses.

Perhaps we should also consider that excessive immigration can really keep wages lower. People would not be getting the wages they do in Calgary and Edmonton if there wasn't such an oil boom sucking up all available workers. Not enough workers may be a problem for an oil country but perhaps it helps the lower paid sector here at home to get a better wage.

Issues of race to the mix are irrelevant, of course. Culture may not always be so. It's naive to assume that all cultures are equally "nice" and all their attributes will integrate perfectly into our domestic society. This is one negative to shunning the melting pot concept. Toronto used to be a far cleaner society than it is today. 30 years ago it was common to hear some American movie star or whatever exclaiming on the news at how clean the streets were in Toronto. That was part of our culture to keep the streets clean. Then we experienced massive immigration from many countries where they may not have even had streets! These people were not used to using waste baskets. They also came in sufficient numbers that they had less contact with "native" Torontonians and were not likely to learn that particular mores of street cleanliness.

Before the flame begins about that last point I'd like to point out that I'm well aware that many immigrants to Toronto were perhaps cleaner than the existing citizenry. It's just it's obvious that something caused the streets to now look so dirty! Perhaps we got a lot of immigrants from New York. That city was never the cleanest, if I recall.

I will also concede myself that Toronto's penchant for leftwing, impractical councils might also be a factor. They tend to put fewer waste baskets on the streets as a way to cut garbage removal costs, just as Bob Rae limited the number of medical students thinking fewer doctors would mean lower OHIP billings.

Anyhow, I will state that I believe that while immigration should be colourblind we also have no obligation other than our own needs as Canadians in how we run our immigration system. If we need doctors then allow doctors in.

That's not to say that we should accept any other country's degree as equal to a Canadian one. It would be naive to think that a doctor trained in another country would ALWAYS be on a par with one trained here. At the same time, many of the barriers put up by Canadian barrier groups don't seem to really be about the quality of education and training. They look more like simple guild-style protectionism! Professionals well understand that the fewer of them there are the more money they can command!

Anyhow, just thought I'd toss these out. When I see unsupported premises taken as gospel I just can't stay with an argument. Even if every one of my points is refuted that's fine. At least then I'll know that everyone is not talking through their hat!

Great post WildBill, I Concur. Immigration is a good thing for Canada if they are going to the Provinces that need more SKILLED workers. Sadly there are individuals that are using this topic as a sounding board to make fun of anyone who doesn't share "Their" views. They and their "Beloved Political Party" are the ones responsible for the entire mess Immigration has become. Making Race an issue when it isn't, it's about supply and demand. We do not need more cab drivers in Toronto, nor welfar recepients. Productive workers are what's needed race is not relivant.

Alas the farleft will ensure we and our children are burdened with crippling debt to pay for their socialist idiology of welfare for decades. It's how the left get elected in Canada, they don't care who they let in this country as long as they vote Liberal. Gangs, violent cultures, are mere annoyances to them.

[ScottSA]

Canada needs people.

This is a nonsensical statement that simply isn't borne out by economics. The only reason people like you use it is because you're parroting it in true Goebbelian fashion. Besides, if the issue were any other one, you'd be howling about the capitalist insistence of "growth."

[Higgly]

Great post WildBill, I Concur. Immigration is a good thing for Canada if they are going to the Provinces that need more SKILLED workers.

What do you say to the taxi driver with a PhD in physics?

We have a very advanced selection program. Unfortunately, we have a very poor placement system.

We have to reconcile the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (the right to movement) with the immigration system.

If you are going to challenge the right to movement, I'm gonna start calling you names in languages that Charles Anthony will have to research...

[ScottSA]

What do you say to the taxi driver with a PhD in physics?

"Why are you here?"

What "right of movement?" Please explain, and cite some convention, or at least something to show me that you're not hallucinating.

[Higgly]

Mild, isn't it?

[trex]

Socialism has been around in Canada alot longer than you have, and we are doing just fine economically.

In recent decades things have gotten tougher for families here as it has elsewhere in the western world, but the golden age of prosperity was during a time whan Canada had far more socialist policies in place. Those hard working immigrants had no interest in living on welfare, as their offspring, third and fourth generation Canadians tend to do now.

[ScottSA]

the golden age of prosperity was during a time whan Canada had far more socialist policies in place.

Please do elaborate on this historical revision. It sounds fascinating.

[ScottSA]

Mild, isn't it?

I take it you're unable to elaborate on this "right of movement?"

[mikedavid00]

IOW, 3 in 10 Australians is an immigrant.

Again, I've researched this long ago. Look at their country of origins for their immigrants. And yes, the time they came and the language they speak certainly makes a difference in whether they will contribute to the country or not.

----

MikeDavid, what are the origins of Canada's immigrants? What languages do they speak? How does this compare with Australia?

You can take some sort of historical, idealogical hippy view of immigration, or you can research the numbers, look at our welfare state, take a look at who pays for this, and then put the pieces together.

But first you have to look at the benefit of living inside a particular borders. You have to ask the question "What is the goal of living in a country".

My idea of that goal is to be rewarded for work and education, that reward is money. That moneys buys 'things'. Things like Brazil cherry hardwood flooring, 3000 sq ft homes, 24" LCD monitors, and Big SUV's, and having a strong welfare state to suppor those brothers and sisters of citizens we call Canadians or ourselves if we hit rough times. Also being able to work from home and enjoy the country and community of people you belong to.

If you agree that the above is reason to live happy in a country, then you will be apposed to modern immigration becuase your slice of the pie decreases in order to give a portion of it to someone else. This was not the case some 30-40 years ago.

If reason of living to you is to live in dirt and poverty and have nothing and take tranist and have your degree mean nothing and smile with glee everytime your fellow Canadian suffers like you, then you'll LOVE immigration. It will fulfill your self hatred for your fellow citizens and your country.

Many, many people are of the latter mindset. Even right here on the forum. I don't enjoy seeing my fellow Canadians die waiting on hospital beds (as what happened recently at the new Brampton hospital.. the one in my sig), but many self haters really do enjoy hearing these stories.. becuase they are doing bad, they feel everyone should do bad and that's what makes them feel good inside.

I want to see everyone do good and really enjoy life! This is NOT going to happen when you are saturating your labor maket and driving up hosuing prices. It's impossible for your life to get BETTER. For you to have MORE. You have more people entering a country then you do jobs and now you will have a serious problem.

MD, you might have a better argument if you noted that for the first time in several decades, Canada's immigrants are poorer - and stay poorer - than Canadian-born.

Yes that's factual and i've been saying that for a long time.

The internet happened, people from all corners of the earth learned how to exploit our easy system, air fare got cheaper, the immigration consultants EXPLODED in the last 7-8 years. And now you are seing the product of all this. People just.. well.. wandering into Canada that we have to pay for and who do not ENHANCE our value of life.

If you think I believe it when someone says "well life isn't all about a big home and nice car, it's about cultures of mosauqe cbc..."

Nonsense. Do you think I really believe that the reason for life is looking at ethnic costumes and hearing foreign languages? No sorry. I'm not buying it.

We live in a world where it is easier and easier for people to travel and cross borders. Some countries, such as Japan and Saudi Arabia, attempt to deal with this by strictly controlling who obtains citizenship.

Umm.. No. *ALL* countries except UK, Australia, New Zealand and Canada tightly control their citizenship. Yes. Hundreds of all the other countries. If you aren't working or visiting, WHY ON EARTH would they give you a citizenship - MAKES SENSE TO ME!

In a civilized, open and dynamic country such as Canada, people moving here is inevitable.

That's because we let them.

MD, you sometimes argue that we should only accept immigrants if they have a job before arriving. That's a dumb selection criteria that would quickly turn into a bureaucratic nightmare. I'll agree however that we could improve who we select and how we do it.

It works find for the US and all the rest of the countries that do it.

Somehow though, it doesn't work for Canada?

WE ALREADY HAVER WORK PERMITS.

Man.. the CBC really, really has you brainwashed.

Why don't you actually go study other countries immigration policies. Go see how easy it is to wander into France. Go see.

[Michael Hardner]

You can take some sort of historical, idealogical hippy view of immigration, or you can research the numbers, look at our welfare state, take a look at who pays for this, and then put the pieces together.

MikeDavid,

Have you changed your view of research ? I remember you referring to examples and evidence with disdain. Certainly I remember asking you to prove your assertion that most truck drivers in India held degrees, but never heard from you on that thread.

[Higgly]

...I remember asking you to prove your assertion that most truck drivers in India held degrees, but never heard from you on that thread.

Maybe he's saying they're pharmacologists. Has he ever tried driving Indian highways? It's a big fish/little fish world over there and the big fish are all taking uppers.