Why is Israel the biggest terrorist state in the world?

[jbg]

This is in my opinion just about the most shamefull action in Canadas history, one that is hardly ever mentioned. As a youth I was truly dismayed when I first learned of it.

One of the first books I read after I regained interest in my Jewish heritage, in 1973, was Morse's While Six Million Died. The US's record was similarly shameful. FDR indeed had lots of blood on his hands.

[capricorn]

This is in my opinion just about the most shamefull action in Canadas history, one that is hardly ever mentioned. As a youth I was truly dismayed when I first learned of it.

Angus I fully agree. To this day I cannot make sense of the Canadian government's actions at that time. I do know that during the second war and for a period afterward, there was a strong anti-Jewish sentiment in Quebec, notably in Montreal. This too seems to be downplayed. Sanitizing our history does no one any favours.

As a Canadian, I apologize to the Jewish people for this undeserved mistreatment.

[AngusThermopyle]

Jews weren't allowed into the country from 1940-1945 because there was a war on.

Sorry Kengs but that is a patently false statement.During the war Canada accepted many people fleeing Europe, all kinds of people. Except Jews. The denial of entry of Jews had not much to do with the war and everything to do with them being Jewish.

You may not like this fact, you may find this fact to be distastefull, but nonetheless it remains an indisputable fact. Do a little research, let your curiosity get the better of you and I'm sure you'll find it to be true.

As I said in my other post, when I learned of this it shocked me to the core, I think I was about 16 at the time, that would be about 1976. It's not something widely published, spoken about, or acknowledged in Canada.

I'm probably wrong, but I get the impression that you dont really like Jewish people too much.

Edit: Sorry, I thought about it a bit and I was about 13-14 in 76 not 16.

Edited December 8, 2007 by AngusThermopyle

[jbg]

Angus I fully agree. To this day I cannot make sense of the Canadian government's actions at that time. I do know that during the second war and for a period afterward, there was a strong anti-Jewish sentiment in Quebec, notably in Montreal. This too seems to be downplayed. Sanitizing our history does no one any favours.

As a Canadian, I apologize to the Jewish people for this undeserved mistreatment.

I appreciate it. I know many Canadians are people of goodwill, both to my first love, my country, the US and my second love, my religion.

[capricorn]

Although the Canadian government has never officially apologized for the turning away of the St. Louis ship, a grassroots Christian movement has sought out the last remaining survivors and invited them to Canada for the November 5th Friends of the St. Louis event. They feel it is time for the Church to take responsibility for its silence and inaction against anti-Semitic acts that contributed to the death and suffering of Jews during the war.

http://www.ecclesia-ottawa.org/pr/pre021100.html

[AngusThermopyle]

Excellent post Capricorn.

It refreshes my memory of the event. As I said, it was a long time ago that I heard of this. I guess over time my memory lost the details. I thought that more than one ship was turned away. Thanks for providing the reminder.

[buffycat]

Keep in mind that the World Zionist Organisation discouraged countries from accepting the Jews, since they wanted them to go to Israel (then of course British Mandate Palestine).

Ben Gurion himself belies this fact:

“If I knew that it was possible to save all the children in Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would choose the second—because we face not only the reckoning of those children, but the historical reckoning of the Jewish people.”

The Zionists and the National Socialists were pretty much on the same page for a long time leading up to the onset of WW2 and even for a while during it.

Don't kid yourselves.

Here is a review (I don't know who the reviewer is, I just grabbed this off google - as I was thinking of Brenners tireless work exposing the links between the Zionist elites and the Nazis).

Review of 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis, Brenner

Brenner isn’t the first writer to address the mostly taboo subject of how the Zionist leadership cooperated with the Nazis. Rolf Hilberg’s seminal “The Destruction of European Jews”; Hannah Arendt’s “Eichmann in Jerusalem”; Ben Hecht’s “Perfidy”; Edwin Black’s “The Transfer Agreement”; Francis R. Nicosia’s “The Third Reich and the Palestine Question”; Rudolf Vrba and Alan Bestic’s “I Cannot Forgive”; and Rafael Medoff’s “The Deadening Silence: American Jews and the Holocaust,” also dared, with varying public success.

After the Holocaust began in 1942, Eichmann dealt regularly with Dr. Rudolf Kastner, a Hungarian Jew, whom he considered a “fanatical Zionist.” Kastner was later assassinated in Israel as a Nazi collaborator. At issue then, however, was the bargaining over the eventual fate of Hungary’s Jews, who were slated for liquidation in the Nazi-run death camps. Eichmann said this about Kastner, the Zionist representative, “I believe that [he] would have sacrificed a thousand or a hundred thousand of his blood to achieve his political goal. He was not interested in old Jews or those who had become assimilated into Hungarian society. ‘You can have the others,’ he would say, ‘but let me have this group here.’ And because Kastner rendered us a great service by helping keep the deportation camps peaceful. I would let his groups escape.”

Readers, too, will be surprised to learn, that after the Nuremberg Anti-Jewish Race Laws were enacted in Sept., 1935, that there were only two flags that were permitted to be displayed in all of Nazi Germany. One was Hitler’s favorite, the Swastika. The other was the blue and white banner of Zionism. The Zionists were also allowed to publish their own newspaper. The reasons for this Reich-sponsored favoritism was, according to the author: The Zionists and the Nazis had a common interest, making German Jews emigrate to Palestine.

As early as June 21, 1933, the German Zionist Federation was sending a secret memorandum to the Nazis, which said, in part:

“It is our opinion that an answer to the Jewish question truly satisfying to the national state [German Reich] can be brought about only with the collaboration of the Jewish movement that aims as a social, cultural and moral renewal of Jewry- -indeed, that such a national renewal must first create the decisive social and spiritual premises for all solutions...”

[jbg]

Keep in mind that the World Zionist Organisation discouraged countries from accepting the Jews, since they wanted them to go to Israel (then of course British Mandate Palestine).

Ben Gurion himself belies this fact:

“If I knew that it was possible to save all the children in Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would choose the second—because we face not only the reckoning of those children, but the historical reckoning of the Jewish people.”

Do you have any mainstream sources for this malarky? I just googled the quote and came up with a welter of Islamist and anti-Jewish sites.

[buffycat]

Do you have any mainstream sources for this malarky? I just googled the quote and came up with a welter of Islamist and anti-Jewish sites.

I believe it's in his biographies/memoirs jbg, it's been written about by various scholars (oh but of course Mr. Brenner is on the SHIT list.

What are you surprised that Gurion would say this? Why? he wasn't exactly mr. pacifist (kinda more a freedom fighter/terrorist actually).

"If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel."

-- David Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth's Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

Here are few other gems attributed to that sweet old fella:

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."

-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"

-- Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country."

-- David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky's Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan's "Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

MonaBaker

You can look up more quotes here

Many people say many rather tasteless things, but they DO say them. No different than say Ahmedinejad saying he wants to 'wipe Israel off the map' - ohhh wait - he didn't actually say that did he?

Pffft.... what ever jbg.

Hey, jbg I just found another little linky for you (man you don't look very hard do you?????)

NY Times Archives Letter to the Editor

In his review of Shabtai Teveth's ''Ben-Gurion: The Burning Ground 1886-1948'' (June 21) Martin Gilbert mistakenly reports that Mr. Teveth does not cite David Ben-Gurion's controversial remark to a 1938 Mapai Central Committee meeting: ''If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.'' The quotation does appear (in a slightly different translation) on pages 855-56 of Mr. Teveth's text. I might add that, given Ben-Gurion's Zionist convictions, there is nothing especially surprising about the sentiment he expressed on that occasion. Mr. Teveth rightly points out that, for Ben-Gurion the Zionist, only a Jewish state could provide an enduring and authentic resolution to the Jewish question. Any rescue operation outside the Zionist framework was - in Ben-Gurion's words - ''witch doctor's medicine'' that would only perpetuate the misery of the Jewish people. Indeed, at least in the early years of the Nazi regime, Ben-Gurion actively opposed any such rescue efforts, precisely because they might have resolved - or from the Zionist perspective, might have appeared to resolve - the Jewish question without a Jewish state. Unfortunately, on this crucial point Mr. Teveth repeatedly cites the failure of the 1938 Evian Conference to solve the problem of Jewish refugees as evidence that the West was indifferent to their fate, thereby confirming Ben-Gurion's Zionist convictions. But what was Ben-Gurion's approach to Evian? Let me quote from another recent biography, Dan Kurzman's ''Ben-Gurion: Prophet of Fire'' (1983):

''The Jews could have only one destination -Eretz Yisrael. So in June 1938, shortly before Allied representatives met in Evian, France, to seek ways of rescuing Jews, Ben-Gurion frankly voiced his concern to colleagues in the Jewish Agency Executive. He did 'not know if the conference will open the gates of other countries. . . . But I am afraid [ it ] might cause tremendous harm to Eretz Yisrael and Zionism. . . . Our main task is to reduce the harm, the danger and the disaster . . . and the more we emphasize the terrible distress of the Jewish masses in Germany, Poland and Rumania, the more damage we shall cause.' So be silent, Ben-Gurion cautioned his comrades. . . . And in the silence . . . Evian failed.'' NORMAN G. FINKELSTEIN New York

(thank you Norman - ooops jbg another Jew on the SHIT list

Edited December 8, 2007 by buffycat

[DogOnPorch]

thank you Norman - ooops jbg another Jew on the SHIT list

Nah...just a

on the sh*t list.

Hannah Arendt’s "Eichmann in Jerusalem"...

She admired Eichmann in an odd way and attempted to portray him as a victim of his times. The classic "I was only following orders" defence. This has been debated hotly both ways...did he do it for business or pleasure?

After the Holocaust began in 1942, Eichmann dealt regularly with Dr. Rudolf Kastner, a Hungarian Jew, whom he considered a “fanatical Zionist.” Kastner was later assassinated in Israel as a Nazi collaborator.

Kastner...sort of a reverse Schindler, seems to have thought he was doing the best he could for the Jews given the situation. It's not like he had a whole lot of choices. None-the-less...it's not the impropriety of the act so-much as the appearace of impropriety that got his azz assassinated.

It was Kastner's actions, of course, that set Obergruppenfuhrer-SS al-Husayni (Grand Mufti of Jerusalem) into action re: Jews heading for Palestine. He wasn't going to stand for that...

---------------------------------------------------------

...it would be indispensable and infinitely preferable to send them (Hungarian Jews) to other countries where they would find themselves under active control, as for example Poland, thus avoiding danger and preventing damage.

---Mohammad Amin al-Husayni: July 25th, 1944

[Rue]

Keng why don't you respond directly to what I say and what you said? What kind of person avoids responding to what he's said and tries to keep avoiding what he's said and try pretend he's said something else? You ever going to respond to me directly or is that all you can do Keng spew hatred then try deny what you said?

In regards to your latest comments;

"I'm not sure where you get "turned away far more" from. Did Canada actually turn away many boat-loads full of Jews yet at the same time let known Jews arrive in smaller groups among other eastern European immigrants? "

Some of us Keng read. We bother to read and learn about the history of their country. Until you do you wil make such comments such as "I'm not sure where you get..." perhaps Keng if you did something other then read neo-nazi and christian hate inter-net sites you might find there is a world other then the selective one you live in.

"Such utter nonsense. "

Precisely. You demonstrate time and time again your comments are based on you making things up as you go along.

"Excluding non-believers is not "discriminatory" from Christian communities; non-believers will only try to undermine and corrupt Christianity, and that's exactly what has been happening for some time now. "

Everytime you open your mouth and utter your judgement of who and who is not Christian you discriminate.

"That's exactly what you're doing. And of course when someone subjects your faith to the same rigorous criticism, what is your response? Antisemitism."

Rigourous criticism? You have not once on any post provided a reference or source for anything you have said. You don't even have the integrity to say what denomination you claim to be a member of! Now you pose as some who has delivered rigious criticism?

"Well, you can call it whatever you want, but the NT makes it clear who's really right and who's really wrong."

There we have it. Keng has got it all figured out. There are "right" people and "wrong" people and how does he know this, cause Jesus tells him so. But hey don't worry Keng doesn't think he's disciminating when he says this.

"So you can make up whatever arguments you want and call people all the names you can think of, it really makes no difference in the end for you."

Interesting this coming from a man who claims only to hate the sin not the sinner but has no problem threatening people with damnation.

"To suggest, though, that the government of Canada was solely governed by Christian values is pretty ignorant."

The depth of you ignorance just flows. Keng pick up a history book and find out how this country was created and what role Christianity played in the governments of the day.

"Immigration policy was largely dictated by secualr economic and racial principles."

Again you spew out a subjective opinion which is not based on anything other then what you fabricated. In fact immigration policy was for many years dictated on the principle that if someone was not Christian they could not come to the country. It was never just based on economics or race and if you bothered to read about the history of Canada's immigration policy you would know that.

"Nowhere did I "suggest" that the Nazis "did not exterminate Jews".

You specifically did. You made a comment that Jews collaborated with the Gestapo and then ooenly asked if the Gestapo was helping Jews, why would it be suggested they were exterminating them. You stated it Keng and I have quoted your statement back to you and you know what you stated and why you asked the question you did. This game of trying to deny what you stated and acting innocent has worn thin.

Interesting for someone who never suggested the Gestapo was benevolvent to Jews and was not trying to exterminate them yo; now state;

"I'm saying that initially there was actually an attempt to remove Jews from Germany--that means that Jews who were still alive were sent to other parts of the world, and seeing that there were only a few hundred thousand within Germany itself, this could have been accomplished."

Again Keng you spew. The above is historically absolutely incorrect. Jews were not sent to other parts of the world. What happened is they fled often without passports and with everything stolen from them. They had to flee illegally or after paying huge brives. They were not "sent" like it was some peaceful bye bye. Why were they event "sent" Keng? Can you ven attempt to try address that question?

"..when Britain and France declared war on the Nazis after they invaded Poland to win back land that was, it could be argued, rightfully Germany's in the first place."

Again I can only summize you get the little knowledge you think you are sharing from neo-Nazi hate lines.

"The declaration of war meant that attempts to remove Jews from Germany were much more difficult to undertake;"

It actually became easier because now the Nazis could build elaborate rail road systems in many nations nations including Germany to remove Jews.

" With the invasion of Russia, this is situation was further exaserbated, which is why in 1942 it was decided to "eliminate" the Jews. "

The word is exasperated and Hitler did not decide to eliminate Jews because he invaded countries and went -ooh look guys there are lots of Jews let's kill them.

"I'm NOT saying that I agree with this; I'm just relating how the situation evolved from the Nazi perspective. "

Again Keng if you were speaking from the Nazi perspective you would in fact be quoting Mein Kempf or the thousands of other documents calling on the extermination of all Jews as a final solution not because Germany did not know what to do with them, but because Nazi Germany felt they knew exactly how they should deal with them and planned it with great care and deliberation to assure maximum death efficiency.

"I've never, ever denied that a mass killing of Jews and other "undesireables" happened; just like I don't deny that other mass killings have occured, ie. in the Soviet Union, the Japanese in China, etc."

No you just state Jews are undesireables as you did above. You just can't stop it from spewing can you Keng. Oh it was an accident referring to Jews as undesireables right Keng?

"Well, apparently that's what happened; and if that's what happened, then apparently it's the "kind of mind" that is concerned with the truth. Again, I haven't denied or "dismiss[ed]" the mass killing of Jews and other "undesireables"."

No you but you manage to twice now refer to Jews as undesireables not to mention prove to everyone that you simply fabricate history to suit what ever agenda it is you think you are now pursuing.

"Again, I haven't denied or "dismiss[ed]" the mass killing of Jews and other "undesireables"."

Say now, is it just me or is this your third denial and reference to Jewsl as undesireables...

"Incidently, many Christians were killed by the Nazis, and along with other non-Jewish victims of the Nazi regime, probably numbered in the millions."

Interesting for someone who infers he is a Jehova's Witness or 7th Day Adventist with his lecturing how he is a member of a denomination that distances itself from the state and most Christian mainstream churches, but has no clue the numbers of wither group that died in the holocaust and bluffs his way along with "probably numbered" because again you simply make up as you go along.

The only reason you state what you do above is to trivialize the meaning of the holocaust to Jews. Its transparent, its pathetic, and its hateful.

"Sad to say that I have often heard Jews only refer to only the Jewish victims of Nazism."

I doubt you have ever had a conversation with Jews about the holocaust or anything else. In fact I doubt you have ever met a Jew. I also think you invented the above incident to try justify your hatred of Jews, no more no less.

Anyone who has ever spoken to Jewish holocaust suirvivors or Jews when they educate about the hiolocaust or has been with Jews commemorating the holocaust or knows anything about the holocaust education programs created by Jews would know when Jews refer to the holocaust, i.e., in any ceremony particularly during the rememberance service held once a year-we specifically mention the non Jews who died in the holocaust and remember them as well. Yad Vashem, the holocaust memorial in Jerusalem, and the Holocaust Memorial in Washington, D.C.., and the holocaust studies programs at all universitspecifically mention and discuss the killings of others such as the Romanoes ,7th day Adventists. gays, the disabled, communists, etc. Our prayers commemorate these dead and do not distinguish them from Jews.

"I suppose that could be construed as an "insult" in a way, don't you think?"

Now Keng suggests Jews insult Christians when they discuss the holocaust. Of course he means "true Christians". There is no limit to the Jew baiting Keng will lower himself to.

Edited December 9, 2007 by Rue

[Rue]

I now must respond to Buffy and her quoting Ben Gurion out of context.

Buffy you quote;

“If I knew that it was possible to save all the children in Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would choose the second—because we face not only the reckoning of those children, but the historical reckoning of the Jewish people.”

Why don't you tell people where you pulled this quote from and why it was being quoted and by who. Tell people where you lifted the quote from because correct me if I am wrong you took it off one of the many hate sites such as the ones I listed in my earlier response did you not?

More to the point why don't you even read the above quote. It wasn't a literal statement. It was a metaphorical statement. Of course you would have known that had you bothered to actually read the speech it comes from instead of lifting it from a hate site. See that's what happens when you lift quotes out of context because you have no clue where they really come from and what Ben Gurion was actually alluding to.

In fact Buffy had you bothered to find out what actually happened you would know the "Zionists" were part of a very active underground often aligned with the Serbs who smuggled as many Jews as they could to Israel. You would also know an arrangement was made to exchange British prisoners of war for 5000 Jewish children but the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem living in Berlin as Hitler's guest interceded and made sure those 5,000 Jewish children were exterminated because he feared they would end up in Israel.

But things like historic detail do they even interest you Buffy when they don't fit your agenda?

"Keep in mind that the World Zionist Organisation discouraged countries from accepting the Jews, since they wanted them to go to Israel (then of course British Mandate Palestine). "

Again Buffy if you are going to quote the hate lines I listed and Mr. Brenner or others who have a blatant anti-Zionist, anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli agenda then at least try keep in mind what they state is not a reliable source and that is why you have no reference for it from a credible history text. Its a subjective opinion that comes from Mr. Brenner who got it from Stalin's boys.

Go read. Go do what I do. Go into the library and do what I did and what JBG is asking of me. Go into the archives and read what Stalin's proganda unit wrote about Zionists during world war two as I did and then compare it as I did to what Mr. Brenner now writes before you quote him. Its not only fabricated its not even original.

Here is the point Buffy, of course the Zionist organization wanted Jews going to Israel but are you suggesting they prevented Jews from going elsewhere knowing they would die? What kind of bullshit is that Buffy?

Of course the Zionist underground smuggled Jews wherever they could. They smuggled them anywhere they could where there were no Nazis or Axis occuped or allied countries. For you to suggest they discouraged this is absolute and utter bullshit-it sugests Jews would kill fellow Jews if they could not get them to Israel. That is just not true, history has proven what the Zionist underground did. You can try deny it or twist it, but that won't change it Buffy.

"The Zionists and the National Socialists were pretty much on the same page for a long time leading up to the onset of WW2 and even for a while during it."

I specifically addressed this lie knowing you would pick up on Keng's nonsense and try defend it.

"Don't kid yourselves.

You like Keng know the real truth right?

"Here is a review (I don't know who the reviewer is, I just grabbed this off google - as I was thinking of Brenners tireless work exposing the links between the Zionist elites and the Nazis)."

Man oh man. Go on Buffy. Go back and read what I wrote before you just happened to find this web-site you got from the one I listed.

Brenner is not an historian and his "tireless work", as you now romanticize it is based on his subjective opinions and having gone into Stalins archives and repeating what an East German propaganda officer in the Stasni was asked to fabricate for Stalin on this alleged Zionist connection.

As usual Buffy the smoking gun you quote is fabricated drivel and you would have known that if instead of simply googling hate sites looking for anti-Zionist rhetoric you further investigated who Brenner is.

One thing is for sure, you are predictable.

" Brenner isn’t the first writer to address the mostly taboo subject of how the Zionist leadership cooperated with the Nazis. Rolf Hilberg’s seminal “The Destruction of European Jews”; Hannah Arendt’s “Eichmann in Jerusalem”; Ben Hecht’s “Perfidy”; Edwin Black’s “The Transfer Agreement”; Francis R. Nicosia’s “The Third Reich and the Palestine Question”; Rudolf Vrba and Alan Bestic’s “I Cannot Forgive”; and Rafael Medoff’s “The Deadening Silence: American Jews and the Holocaust,” also dared, with varying public success."

Interesting how none of the above is an historian accepted in the historic community as having stated anything valid and all were completely dismissed as hate journalists with the exception of Hanah Arendt and had you bothered to read the book you now quote from Brenner's comments, you would know she never at any time suggested Zionists collaborated with Nazis.

"After the Holocaust began in 1942, Eichmann dealt regularly with Dr. Rudolf Kastner, a Hungarian Jew, whom he considered a “fanatical Zionist.”"

Again Buffy you quote from hate literature. The fact that Kastner tried to save Jews from their deaths does not mean he collabiorated with Eichman and you would know that if you did something other than make assumptions from paraphrasing hate sites. The fact that Jewish representatives had to talk to Nazis to try save Jews does not mean they collaborated with them as part of this elaborate Zionist plot.

"Kastner was later assassinated in Israel as a Nazi collaborator."

He was the subject of hatred because it was felt by some he did not save enough Jews, while other Jews felt he was a hero for saving the ones he managed. He was not assassinated as you neatly try to suggest simply because he collaborated with Nazis. He died because tragically he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't and some holocaust survivors such as the one who killed him felt he betrayed them. If he tried to negotiate to save Jews he was seen as a sell out assisting the Nazis kill Jews, but if he didn't didn't negotiate,Jews would have died as well. For you to try twist this as evidence of a Zionist plot is just plain nasty.

Do me a favour Buffy, your lecturing on what happened in Hungary to Jews based on your sudden googled expertise is just absolutely wrong not just because its past the point of simplistic black and white contextualizing by people with a specific agenda but because it has nothing to do with what actually happened so stop. You have no right to lecture anyone on what happened to Hungarian Jews. Stop trying to act like you are the authority on something you have made no attempt to research.

"Readers, too, will be surprised to learn, that after the Nuremberg Anti-Jewish Race Laws were enacted in Sept., 1935, that there were only two flags that were permitted to be displayed in all of Nazi Germany. One was Hitler’s favorite, the Swastika. The other was the blue and white banner of Zionism. The Zionists were also allowed to publish their own newspaper."

Absolute and utter bullshit. Completely fabricated and it never happened Buffy but that is precisely what happens when you quote people quoting proganda officers whose mandate it is to create false stories. Stop and think Buffy. They were exterminating 6 million Jews while you claim this was happening.

" The reasons for this Reich-sponsored favoritism was, according to the author: The Zionists and the Nazis had a common interest, making German Jews emigrate to Palestine."

There we have it. Nazis were misunderstood. Never mind those gas chambers and elaborate railroad tracks.

This is precisely what happens when people too young to understand what happened and make no effort to find out instead live their world through the inter-net's hate sites.

"As early as June 21, 1933, the German Zionist Federation was sending a secret memorandum to the Nazis, which said, in part:

“It is our opinion that an answer to the Jewish question truly satisfying to the national state [German Reich] can be brought about only with the collaboration of the Jewish movement that aims as a social, cultural and moral renewal of Jewry- -indeed, that such a national renewal must first create the decisive social and spiritual premises for all solutions...”"

This is a classic example of how a document is removed from its actual context and given a new meaning by people like you to fit your agenda.

First off, The memorandum was not secret it was public Buffy. You would know that had you bothered to read something other then the hate line you lifted it from.

You would also know that this was an attempt to try convince the Nazis not to persecute Jews and there was nothing sinister about it and for you Buffy to suggest Zionists trying to convince Hitler not to persecute Jews is a sinister zionist plot with Nazis is hateful and motivated is it not by your agenda which needs to demonize Zionists?

This is what it has come to right Buffy? You defending the Kengs of this planet and relying on googling hate sites to try suggest Nazis had an alliance with Zionists.

Edited December 9, 2007 by Rue

[Rue]

My aunt (just a kid then), plus her sister and parents, escaped Nazi Germany after Crystal Night only to end up having to go back to Europe when they were refused entry to Cuba, the USA and Canada. Canada's response to 'how many Jews can you take?' was apparently 'None is too many.' Luckily for she and her family, they managed to get disembarked in France rather than back in Hamburg. She was one of the few Jews to make it to the US from Europe while the war was on, getting out on her visa along with her family just before France was invaded. Those who failed to get on another ship to America suffered the fate of many others....

They made a movie about their collective experience back in the 1960s: 'Ship of Fools'.

-------------------------------------------------

Ah, stardom! They put your name on a star in the sidewalk on Hollywood Boulevard and you walk down and find a pile of dog manure on it. That tells the whole story, baby.

---Lee Marvin

I am sorry you have to libe to see a young Canadian trying to re-write what happened and suggest Zionists and Nazis collaborated in some elaborate conspiracy and Zionists worked to prevent Jews from escaping the holocaust to other countries if it wasn't Palestine.

I tried by best to pre-empt the hatred I saw coming. The sad thing is other than JBG I doubt anyone cares.

[jbg]

I tried by best to pre-empt the hatred I saw coming. The sad thing is other than JBG I doubt anyone cares.

I find that hard to believe. If so, sad.

[DogOnPorch]

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."

-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

Apparently the quote actually reads: “We do not wish, we do not need to expel Arabs and take their place....All our aspiration is built on the assumption that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.”

While perusing the English-language version of Morris’ doctored-to-death book, “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem,” Karsh happened upon a quote from a letter Ben-Gurion wrote to his son, allegedly stating that, “we must expel the Arabs and take their places.” Karsh “recalled the letter saying something quite different.” On examination, it transpired that the Hebrew text read as follows: “We do not wish, we do not need to expel Arabs and take their place … All our aspiration is built on the assumption that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.”

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

http://www.ilanamercer.com/HarvardHucksters.htm

There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?

Actual quote: I don't understand your optimism. Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So, it's simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army. Our whole policy is there. Otherwise the Arabs will wipe us out.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

Paste this quote into Google...this very thread was #1 as of Sunday Dec 9, 2007

If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel

Any other suspect quotes, buffy?

-------------------------------------------------------------

Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations.

---Mohammed Abdel Rahman Abdel Raouf Arafat al-Qudwa al-Husseini (Yasser Arafat)

[DogOnPorch]

I am sorry you have to libe to see a young Canadian trying to re-write what happened and suggest Zionists and Nazis collaborated in some elaborate conspiracy and Zionists worked to prevent Jews from escaping the holocaust to other countries if it wasn't Palestine.

No worries. There were always Sonderkommandos...always will be.

My aunt finally met my uncle who had served in the Waffen-SS at a reunion (back in the 80s). He had been a traslator at the Nuremberg Trials when he was a POW. After listening to those two talk, there was never any doubt in my mind that the Holocaust unfolded as stated in the book I had read.

It does, however, irk me when someone in a position of power makes the Holocaust out to be 'just another' historical event. Or makes it out to be less than what it was....

-----------------------------------------------------------

If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged.

---Noam Chomsky

[Rue]

No worries. There were always Sonderkommandos...always will be.

My aunt finally met my uncle who had served in the Waffen-SS at a reunion (back in the 80s). He had been a traslator at the Nuremberg Trials when he was a POW. After listening to those two talk, there was never any doubt in my mind that the Holocaust unfolded as stated in the book I had read.

It does, however, irk me when someone in a position of power makes the Holocaust out to be 'just another' historical event. Or makes it out to be less than what it was....

-----------------------------------------------------------

If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged.

---Noam Chomsky

I do genuinely apologize to you and JBG however for not being able to sound angry. Its not anger just passion. lol.

Edited December 9, 2007 by Rue

[Rue]

This post has turned into a classic example of how alleged criticism of Israeli policies are used to invert the holocaust and to suggest Israelis is evil for wanting to be nationally self-determined.

With holocaust inversion the holocaust is used to try suggest JEWS collaborated with Nazis or that there was nothing particularly unique about the holocaust or in the case of Keng Jews use the holocaust to insult Christians!

JBG asked me if I coud provide my list of sources. I would be pleased and have below and I encourage anyone to look at them and compare them to the earlier ones I listed. Go back and forth and compare that is all I ask.

Lenni Brenner it should be noted is NOT an historian. He has been a life long Trotskyite and is self-educated and has made a career as a communist writing mostly anti-Zionist pieces. Born an orthodox Jew he was a communist by the age of 15 and like a few other people born Jewish but who renounced their ethnicity and faith and have made a life writing racist hate articles they are widely quoted by the Buffy’s of the world who do not understand who they are and what they stand for and who exploits them. He is a member of several anti-Zionist organizations who are quoted regularly on neo-Nazi web sites.

The key with Brenner (who changed his name from Galser) is that he do not research history. What he in fact does is quote secondary sources. He take quotes from Ben Gurion, etc., removes them from the context from which they are actually used, and then claim they provide evidence of a Zionist Nazi conspiracy. He does something no historian would do-remove a document or quote from its original context, ignore the original context and create a new context. It is precisely why the mainstream academio community does not take him seriously-he violates the basic rule of history-he does not report what happened, he re-writes what happened.

What makes this latest episode of Zionism and Jews arguement absurd is that we are to believe because Jews tried to negotiate with the Nazis to save Jews, this can be used as evidence to say Nazis supported Jews and had an alliance with them. Using this logic OScar Schindler is a Zionist, Raul Wallenberg is a Zionist and any Jewish representative desperately trying to save Jews from their death is a Zionist and all were good friends with the Nazis who Buffy quotes as being able to fly a black flag of Zionists in Germany as 6 million were exterminated.

Its past the point of absurd.

It is one thing to see it expressed by people like Keng who can’t even quote it write and restate it as Jews collaborating with the Gestapo-a political police force whose job it was to track down, torture and then send to their death anyone suspected of being a Jew, gypsy, communist, gay, etc..

Here are the web-sites JBG to counter this disingenuine attempt to invert the holocaust.

What I find interesting JBG is that for someone like Keng who claims communists persecute his denomination he has no problems quoting communists who hate everything to do with his demnomination such as Brenner. I guess that is whay he refers to as "vigorous criticism".

Israeli Holocaust-psychologist Nathan Durst has explained what Buffy is now doing as follows: "If the guilty person is bad, the Jewish victim becomes good. The moment it can be shown the latter is bad too, the ‘other'-that is, the European-is relieved of his guilt feelings. To claim that Israelis behave like Nazis reduces the sin of the grandparents. Then the children of the victims can no longer be the accusers. This equalizes everybody." 1

1 Manfred Gerstenfeld, interview with Nathan Durst, "Europe: From Guilt Feelings to Repackaging Anti-Semitism," in Europe's Crumbling Myths, 135

http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPag...d_Jews_as_Nazis

http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPag...olocaust_Memory

http://www.opiniojuris.org/posts/1176739868.shtml

http://thestupidleft.blogspot.com/

http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2003...al-analysis.htm

http://databank.isranet.org/articles.asp?category=140

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=...uG&b=395059

http://nymag.com/nymetro/arts/tv/reviews/3231/

http://www.paulbogdanor.com/antisemitism.html

http://www.gilad.co.uk/html%20files/purim.html

http://pnews.org/art/11art/1Restoration.shtml

[jbg]

I do genuinely apologize to you and JBG however for not being able to sound angry. Its not anger just passion. lol.

What apology did I ask for?

[kengs333]

" With the invasion of Russia, this is situation was further exaserbated, which is why in 1942 it was decided to "eliminate" the Jews. "

The word is exasperated and Hitler did not decide to eliminate Jews because he invaded countries and went -ooh look guys there are lots of Jews let's kill them.

Actually, it should be exacerbated.

[kengs333]

Attempting to justify that senseless carnage is breathtaking.

I'm not trying to justify "senseless carnage" at all. I'm simply stating that's what the Nazis decided to do given the situation that they put themselves in.

[kengs333]

Of all posters, I am one of the best in having rational discussions. When I ask for some kind of neutrality with respect to Israel, i.e. considering its actions on the same basis that Russia's and China's actions are considered, that request is always somehow evaded or falls on deaf ears.

How modest. Perhaps you should try doing so, then.

I think the problem is that when people try to discuss Israel on the "same basis" as other countries, the reaction is overly hypersensitive.

[jbg]

Actually, it should be exacerbated.

For once, on this thread, a good point. It's also a bit startling to see a debate about the proper use of English in a non-English-speaking country.

[kengs333]

Sorry Kengs but that is a patently false statement.During the war Canada accepted many people fleeing Europe, all kinds of people. Except Jews. The denial of entry of Jews had not much to do with the war and everything to do with them being Jewish.

Do a little research, let your curiosity get the better of you and I'm sure you'll find it to be true.

Perhaps you should take your own advice. The two largest groups of immigrants--constituting the vast majority--were from Britain and the United States, both for obvious reasons. Large numbers of people were not fleeing Europe for obvious reasons, as well: it was a difficult undertaking because there was a war going on.

http://socserv.mcmaster.ca/maclabour/article.php?id=836 http://socserv.mcmaster.ca/maclabour/article.php?id=838

[jbg]

Perhaps you should take your own advice. The two largest groups of immigrants--constituting the vast majority--were from Britain and the United States, both for obvious reasons. Large numbers of people were not fleeing Europe for obvious reasons, as well: it was a difficult undertaking because there was a war going on.

http://socserv.mcmaster.ca/maclabour/article.php?id=836 http://socserv.mcmaster.ca/maclabour/article.php?id=838

An excerpt from your first link makes the point beautifully:

As would be expected, the largest decrease within this group was the German, there only being 119 from that country in 1940 compared with the largest decrease in numbers took place in the group classified as "other races." During 1940 only 830 persons in this group entered Canada compared with 5,844 in 1939.

The Germans most heavily impacted would have been Jewish. Jews were still getting out. If I'm not mistaken, the St. Louis sailing was during 1940. Shame on Canada and the US for that!!!