8 Year Old Hockey Brawl

[jawapunk]

I'm not sure where to put this topic but I wanted peoples opinions on the issue. Why are 8 year olds engaging in hockey brawls? Is this telling of violence in sport and who should be held accountable, just the coaches or parents as well?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/11/26/hockey-brawl.html

[AngusThermopyle]

Both should be held accountable. Any pro player who fights should also be charged with assault. Why should the law take a holiday just because its Hockey?

[Black Dog]

Why are 8 year olds engaging in hockey brawls?

Because it's part of the culture of the sport.

Any pro player who fights should also be charged with assault. Why should the law take a holiday just because its Hockey?

I'm no fan of fighting in hockey-quite the opposite, really-but yeesh. Talk about unnecessary.

[trex]

What else can you expect with people like Don Cherry promoting such violence in his brand of "rock 'em sock 'em" Hockey. As a player myself it makes me sick to watch when they start fighting on tv. The refs stand back and allow it. You can tell its premeditated, a part of the so-called "entertainment".

[AngusThermopyle]

Yes, fighting is unnecessary, all the best players have been skaters, not fighters.

[jawapunk]

Fighting is unneccessary although I still enjoy a good scrap in an NHL game, but 8 year olds? I don't think it becomes a part of the game until you are in your teens. These kids barely know fundamentals and I wouldn't call fighting a fundamental of hockey.

But you are correct, hockey is violent.

[Higgly]

Because it's part of the culture of the sport.

That's the problem. I saw a few interviews of Leaf players who were asked about it. They said basically that it was part of the sport but it had no place at that particular level.

Who do you think these little guys are emulating?

Hockey is a wonderful sport. It has a fantastic zen: speed, grace, skill, intelligence. A well executed pass. The matching of lines. Reaction times. A break-away: sharpshooter against goalie. A shot from the blue line...

I have to give credit to Beckman and the NHL Owners for finally trying to do something to control violence (in spite of their dumb-ass expansion strategy), but apparentrly it is just not trickling down to the farm teams.

This whole thing is just very sad.

[AngusThermopyle]

I suppose it's to be expected. All these eight year olds who play idolize the NHL guys. They see them fight, so what do we really expect, except for them to attempt to emulate their hero's?

[capricorn]

I spent more time in arenas with my two sons than I care to remember. In minor hockey, kids want to please their parents first and the coach second.

In too many cases, young hockey players respond to the words and actions of boneheaded parents. From the stands you'd hear mothers and fathers screaming at their kids "hit 'im, hit 'im hard" and other similar encouragements. And the swearing back and forth could make you blush. Those kids would then go home and got harassed if they didn't play a physical game. And yes, I've seen this with players from 6 years of age and up.

Then you get coaches that want to win at all costs, no matter the age of the players. How do you weed these guys out from minor hockey, I don't know but I wish it was done systematically.

There are arenas that ban parents who incite kids to be violent or who display violence themselves against coaches and refs. Apparently they are now given a code of conduct when the season begins. That helps. I think refs should take a harder stand against these parents.

It's way too easy to blame Don Cherry for this nonsense. But it's easier than blaming those parents who think their sons are the next Wayne Gretzky and think the way to do it is to "cream" the other guy.

[guyser]

Fighting is unneccessary although I still enjoy a good scrap in an NHL game, but 8 year olds? . These kids barely know fundamentals and I wouldn't call fighting a fundamental of hockey.

But you are correct, hockey is violent.

Fighting in the NHL has a place, it is the instigator rule that should go.

Dont kid yourself though, these 8 yr olds are AAA material. That means they have very good knowledge of the game and are impressive to watch. They can skate like the wind.

An eight year old in a fight is not the misnomer as I see it. It is the coaches and spittin on one another that gets me.

The coaches should be suspended, but the kids should only get a talking to.

[Higgly]

I spent more time in arenas with my two sons than I care to remember. In minor hockey, kids want to please their parents first and the coach second.

In too many cases, young hockey players respond to the words and actions of boneheaded parents. From the stands you'd hear mothers and fathers screaming at their kids "hit 'im, hit 'im hard" and other similar encouragements. And the swearing back and forth could make you blush. Those kids would then go home and got harassed if they didn't play a physical game. And yes, I've seen this with players from 6 years of age and up.

OMG. You are absolutely right! That's the way it was when I was a kid. You are so right. At that level, it is the parents more than anybody.

Good post!

[Black Dog]

I suppose it's to be expected. All these eight year olds who play idolize the NHL guys. They see them fight, so what do we really expect, except for them to attempt to emulate their hero's?

But it's deeper than that, which is why I said "culture of the sport" and not the simplistic "they are just doing what they see done on the teevee." Violence is deeply ingrained in the culture of the game. In someways, that's understandable. It's a physical sport and outbursts of actual violence (as opposed to pure physicality) are a predictable, though not necessarily necessary, result. Somewhere along the line, though, violence began to be regarded as a feature rather than a bug.

[Higgly]

But it's deeper than that, which is why I said "culture of the sport" and not the simplistic "they are just doing what they see done on the teevee."

I don't think it's the kids who are emulating this. I think it's the parents.

I think that, for kids at this age, anything they see on TV needs confirmation before they will believe it's true. That confirmation can very subtle. These little guys are taking things they hear from their parents as truth when adults would view them as subject to judgment.

[Wilber]

Thankfully my kid didn't play hockey, he chose rugby instead. A gentlemans game.

[Higgly]

Thankfully my kid didn't play hockey, he chose rugby instead. A gentlemans game.

Good luck with those dental bills!

[M.Dancer]

I saw a clip of some kids fighting. First thing they should be taught is to drop the stick, drop the gloves and lead with the right. The second thing is they should be taught that the fight ends whenthe game ends.

What's next? Getting the bluelines removed in Boxing?

[jefferiah]

Yes, fighting is unnecessary, all the best players have been skaters, not fighters.

I know that if you ask most of those wonderful skilled skaters what they think about fighting, they usually tend to say it should be allowed. It is usually because of those skilled players that teams have enforcers. A dirty shot on a skilled guy here and there that the ref doesn't catch, and soon enough the team will send out an enforcer to send the message that you had better not hurt our boy. Brett Hull has said if not for enforcers he would never have played as many years as he did.

Edited November 29, 2007 by jefferiah

[FTA Lawyer]

Hockey is an aggressive and at times violent sport. Every player on the ice is "armed" at all times, and one of the legal ways to get the puck away from your opponent is to knock him down by slamming your body into his [or hers].

The fact that penalties exist for hitting other players with your stick or fighting etc. demonstrates that getting hit with a stick or into a fight are incidents that any player must reasonably expect to occur from time to time when they participate in the sport.

When a pile of 8 year olds get into a brawl, you can't really argue that it is something that will never happen given the nature of the game. That said, the lack of control displayed by the coaches, parents, and even referees suggests that little respect for the game is being taught to the players on these teams.

When I was that young playing hockey we knew that if we spit on another player or got into a brawl, we were in so much trouble from our coaches and parents that it simply never happened. When I was playing junior, there were times I was specifically sent on the ice to start a fight...but by then I was an adult so it put things in a much different context.

As one of the resident lawyers here, I offer this summary from a 1991 Ontario Court of Appeal decision called R. v. Leclerc:

Hockey players impliedly consent to some bodily contact necessarily incidental to the game, but not to overtly violent attacks. Conduct which, according to objective criteria, evinces a deliberate purpose to inflict injury is generally outside of the scope of immunity provided by the doctrine of implied consent.

In the same year, the Supreme Court of Canada in a case called R. v. Jobidon confirmed that the ability to consent to a fist fight or brawl is limited in that you cannot consent to infliction of "serious hurt or non-trivial bodily harm" to yourself. That being said, the SCC confirmed a common law ability to consent to intentional application of force against yourself, provided that such force is "within the customary norms and rules of the game."

Arguably, the law continues to sanction hockey fights, so long as you don't get too hurt. Kind of a sheet of thin ice to be walking (or skating) on if you choose to drop the gloves.

What if you just win better than you thought you would and the guy decides to call the police?

Think of all of the guys you have seen leaking all over the ice after a fight...probably the winner committed a criminal offence. What will the NHL do the first time a player who loses the fight and his pride to the extent he just goes and files charges?

Those are my thoughts.

FTA

[M.Dancer]

Long time no sue.....welcome back....

[FTA Lawyer]

Long time no sue.....welcome back....

Rather, too much sue and no mapleleafweb makes FTA a dull boy!!

FTA

[jazzer]

In the same year, the Supreme Court of Canada in a case called R. v. Jobidon confirmed that the ability to consent to a fist fight or brawl is limited in that you cannot consent to infliction of "serious hurt or non-trivial bodily harm" to yourself. That being said, the SCC confirmed a common law ability to consent to intentional application of force against yourself, provided that such force is "within the customary norms and rules of the game."

These are freakin' eight year olds FGS.

[White Doors]

But it's deeper than that, which is why I said "culture of the sport" and not the simplistic "they are just doing what they see done on the teevee." Violence is deeply ingrained in the culture of the game. In someways, that's understandable. It's a physical sport and outbursts of actual violence (as opposed to pure physicality) are a predictable, though not necessarily necessary, result. Somewhere along the line, though, violence began to be regarded as a feature rather than a bug.

The more fights are allowed between two willing combatants, the less hitting from behind and other things that actually cause serious injuries there are. Hockey can be a uniquely frustrating sport. It is fast, you play it on skates, you land on hard ice and there are boards and part of the equipment is a weapon in your hands. There is no other sport like that except for lacrosse, but again no ice and not as fast. Fighting evolved in the sport because of all of these reasons and is there because of it. Hockey by it's very nature demands some self-regulation and the odd pugilistic bout is a great way to self regulate. People who do not like fighting in hockey have never played high level hockey.

It's a little much for 8 year olds I agree but not really anything more that happens in the school yard.