Pakistanis feel hoodwinked, cheated by military ruler

[Kalp]

Pakistani President General Musharraf declared the state of Emergency in Pakistan bringing the nation to a complete halt as the entire world watched on in a dismay.

The worst thing that can happen in any country is when Democracy is crushed and the ordinary people are left thinking what to do.

The army is out on street, Press and Media is banned, Internet and telephone lines have been blocked, Political leaders have been put under house arrest, The judiciary has become powerless ... Supremee Court judges have been dismissed...

In this hour of crisis ... I request you all to come forward and fight this state of Emergency irrespective of your Nationality or Religion.

Come lets help in Prevailing DEMOCRACY back in the nation....

[Borg]

Well, at least the news media is telling us they feel hoodwinked - how true it is only the locals really know.

In fact I believe it is simply a problem created by tribalism - the strong rule and the weak serve.

A weak democracy at the best of times, the destabilizing influences need to be stopped. How that is to be done will be dictated by the strong.

Unlike Canada, some parts of the world are quite comfortable with killing their enemies.

Tribe before flag.

I suppose I could also go on and state the muslem faction is doing most of the destabilization - but that would simply lead to me being called a muslim basher.

Either way - when arms stop crossing the P'stan border into other countries and the tribes stop harbouring terrorists in P'stan and the streets of P'stan are safe once again, democracy may be reinstated.

Until then I go back to the "strong rule and the weak serve".

If P'stan citizens had really wanted to straighten out their problems they would have done so - doing nothing simply makes their government - legal, illegal, elected or not - act as they see fit for the situation.

You do not have to like it - it is simply the way it is in many parts of the world.

Sooner or later it will get sorted out. Hell, even Canada resorted to marshall law once.

Canada got over it. So will you.

Be happy you are here, and leave your old prejudices where you come from.

Borg

Edited November 7, 2007 by Borg

[Higgly]

You are making the tribal areas out to be the major political force in the country. In fact, they are a minority, albeit one that is harbouring terrorists, and is very resistant to central rule. Pakistan has very large urban centres with people who have never seen anything but secular government. While it has had military leaders for at least half of its life, it has never had an Islamic government, and it is not likely to put up with one. What we could have though, is civil war, or at least insurgency. If that happens, particularly at a time when the US economy looks ready to go into meltdown, things could get really ugly.

[Borg]

You are making the tribal areas out to be the major political force in the country. In fact, they are a minority, albeit one that is harbouring terrorists, and is very resistant to central rule. Pakistan has very large urban centres with people who have never seen anything but secular government. While it has had military leaders for at least half of its life, it has never had an Islamic government, and it is not likely to put up with one. What we could have though, is civil war, or at least insurgency. If that happens, particularly at a time when the US economy looks ready to go into meltdown, things could get really ugly.

Higgly

Not quite.

Tribal areas are small - but VERY powerful destabilizing forces. Secular folks tend to stay at home. The tribes will come and kill - often using honour and religion as their main excuses.

Things will get ugly and there will be those that cheer for this. All one has to do is look over the mountains to the north and west.

Borg

[mikedavid00]

In this hour of crisis ... I request you all to come forward and fight this state of Emergency irrespective of your Nationality or Religion.

Come lets help in Prevailing DEMOCRACY back in the nation....

OH HERE WE GO GUYS.

WE HAVE A POLTICAL 'PERSON OF INTEREST' POSTING RIGHT HERE ON THE FORUM!

I said, it's nothing but smoke and mirrors. That's all it is.

SORRY BUDDY, I'M NOT GOING TO HELP YOUR POLITICAL MINORITY TRY TO OUT-THROW YOUR ELECTED GOV'T

[mikedavid00]

Unlike Canada, some parts of the world are quite comfortable with killing their enemies.

Tribe before flag.

I don't know why the media, posters, even jbg, doesn't understand this simple concept.

And yes, the tribe can be lawyers and elites. It doens't mean they are Osama mountain poeple.

[mikedavid00]

Be happy you are here, and leave your old prejudices where you come from.

AMEN TO THAT!!!

[AngusThermopyle]

I'm curious about this one. I really haven't paid much attention to the situation over there. Is it a democratically elected government or is it a military dictatorship? I would tend to think the latter myself, just his title alone seems to indicate that, you know, the President General part. Then the ability to arbitrarily make and enact laws because of his declaration of national emergency.

I could be wrong though, as I said, I haven't been following the situation in Pakistan at all. My knowledge in this area is limited to the broad general picture and is lacking in details. Does anyone here have a more thorough knowledge of this situation?

adding that Musharraf, who took power in a 1999 coup

Okay, strike the above, it's a dictatorship. Nothing Democratic at all about military coup's. You can usually tell these guys by the titles they grant themselves. Like Idi Amin Dada, his title was something like "Doctor General President for life Idi Amin Dada".

Edited November 7, 2007 by AngusThermopyle

[Higgly]

OH HERE WE GO GUYS.

WE HAVE A POLTICAL 'PERSON OF INTEREST' POSTING RIGHT HERE ON THE FORUM!

I said, it's nothing but smoke and mirrors. That's all it is.

SORRY BUDDY, I'M NOT GOING TO HELP YOUR POLITICAL MINORITY TRY TO OUT-THROW YOUR ELECTED GOV'T

Of course you're the real thing, right mikedavid00?

Have you ever actually been to Pakistan?

[Higgly]

Higgly

Not quite.

Tribal areas are small - but VERY powerful destabilizing forces. Secular folks tend to stay at home. The tribes will come and kill - often using honour and religion as their main excuses.

Things will get ugly and there will be those that cheer for this. All one has to do is look over the mountains to the north and west.

Borg

There is no doubt of that. What we have here is a face-off between terrorism and democracy, the needs of the west and the needs of their allies.

Pakistan has always been a secular state and they are not soon going to give that up to Islamic extremists, no matter what methods they may use. That is, unless some external force come sin and tries to pull a fast one. Then all bets are off. Musharraf has worked himself into a corner and whether you think he is the best leader or not, he is not going to last.

[Moxie]

Higgly

Not quite.

Tribal areas are small - but VERY powerful destabilizing forces. Secular folks tend to stay at home. The tribes will come and kill - often using honour and religion as their main excuses.

Things will get ugly and there will be those that cheer for this. All one has to do is look over the mountains to the north and west.

Borg

Yep the Islamist, the Taliban and Al Qaeda, have joined forces and they are not a small group to hold in contempt. They are dedicated terrorist looking to form a Wahhabi Islamic State, Pakistan is doomed unless she bombs the shite out of their locations. These men are like cockroaches, we ran them out of Afghanistan and Iraq and they will not stop until they have an Islamic State to control and lord over. Any patch of dirt will do, and they will keep moving around the ME until we squash them like bugs.

[Charles Anthony]

Hoodwinked?

[bush_cheney2004]

Pakistani President General Musharraf declared the state of Emergency in Pakistan bringing the nation to a complete halt as the entire world watched on in a dismay.

The worst thing that can happen in any country is when Democracy is crushed and the ordinary people are left thinking what to do....

Yes, it's terrible....reminds me of PM Trudeau and the October Crisis.

[jbg]

Yes, it's terrible....reminds me of PM Trudeau and the October Crisis.

At least Trudeau's operation was handled efficiently and in a manner proportionate to the threat (even though it is true that he released the perps to Castro's control).

[jbg]

Yep the Islamist, the Taliban and Al Qaeda, have joined forces and they are not a small group to hold in contempt. They are dedicated terrorist looking to form a Wahhabi Islamic State, Pakistan is doomed unless she bombs the shite out of their locations. These men are like cockroaches, we ran them out of Afghanistan and Iraq and they will not stop until they have an Islamic State to control and lord over. Any patch of dirt will do, and they will keep moving around the ME until we squash them like bugs.

Fortunately, Pakistan has large middle class areas and some infusion of the Britisn tradition of democratic rule.

[Rue]

Its human nature when we look at a political conflict in another country to look at it from a reference point where we make all kinds of assumptions based on our own political concepts we take for granted and so think should exist everywhere.

Pakistan since its inception has had military rulers. Its not Canada of course. Less then one percent of its population controls its wealth. It has no large pronounced Middle Class. You are either part of that tiny elite or you are basically a humble person leadng a very basic life.

It doesn't have the roads and highways we have here. Its a large country with mountains and rugged terrain making it impossible for the military to govern. To get your troops to move on the ground from point A to B is not easy at all and even if you can the terrain makes it problematic.

Here is the other reality. Pakistan is a nation of thousands of nations or villages each with their own rules.

To rule such a place the reality is I doubt any liberal democratic model is going to work the way say it would in Canada precisely because of the above practical realities.

Pakistan's governments have always been corupted. Its just a fact of life for most third world nations. Coruption or bribery in fact oeprates as a kind of tax.

There are always two economies in a country like Pakistan's-the one the elite control and the other, the black market.

Ultimately what happens to Pakistan has to be decided by its people. I am not sure sitting in my chair in Toronto and assuming the world should be run like it is in Canada means much to a person living in Pakistan. Why would it?

Pakistan has always moved from regime to regime with military coups and assassinations. Voting processes are always suspected of being corupted. Its just the way it is there.

Its of concern to the West only because its vital to the Taliban and other terrorist organizations that use its territory on the Afgfhan border for its base of operations and because it has nuclear weapons.

If those two elements were not there, come on, no one would be talking about Pakistan but Pakistanis or perhaps Indians.

I think the reality is to run such a country as it is, it will always have some sort of military government or a coalition of the military with a civilian ruler they can control.

The Liberal democractic model we all think is the best one needs a lot of things if it is do practically exist, for starters a very entrenched and large enough middle class. Pakistan has none. The other thing Liberal Democracies require to oeprate are citizens who can read and write and cna interact with it.

People forget that literacy in Pakistan is still a huge problem. If people can't read or write, it makes it very difficult for them NOT to be dependent on their relgious clerics or trusted village elder to tell them what they should do and think and this is a combustible element at the moment.

In the thousands of its villages, or its mini nations, none of us know what each villageleader or its clerics are thinking. Are they all fundamentalist terrorists? How would we know? Does anyone have an idea how in a country its size and with its numerous villages how one would go about accurately measuring opinion?

Edited November 11, 2007 by Rue

[Higgly]

Fortunately, Pakistan has large middle class areas and some infusion of the Britisn tradition of democratic rule.

Exackly. Pakistan has had secular rule since partition. Can you see a country that is undergoing a revolution lead by lawyers giving itself up to religious zealots?

I don't think so.

Lucy, you got some 'splain' to do.....

[Rue]

I should have clarified in my earlier comment when I Pakistan has none in regardsto Middle Class I meant none big enough to sustain the kind of buffer between the elite and poor. I concede it has a middle class, just I am questioning whether its large enough to be a political factor of stabilizing economic force.

Pakistan is estimated to have 170 million of which its government claims 30 million are "middle class". Middle class in Pakistan is defined as whether a family earns $10,000. I think though what they would consider middle class, we would probably define most of that mdidle class as what we call the lower working class in Canada-i.e., people with jobs other than subsistence ones.

Is that 17.6% of the population sufficient enough for a liberal democracy? Not sure. All I know is it is tied up at the topend of the world's nations with Indonesia, Russia and Britain in financial inequality and the US still ranks the most unequal country in terms of financial distribution. The middle class certainly grew in Musharaf's time and because of a sudden surge after 9-11 but it now seems to be shrinking again. Lawyers of course are a very small group within that middle class, many of whom would be considered military and civil service.

Not sure if its large enough to make a political difference or prevent the kind of resentment that happens when there are polar extremes from rich to poor.

This middle class seems more concentrated in urban areas as JBG said for obvious reasons but what also appears to be happening is the urban areas are under strain as more and more poor people head to them.

Of course the above is on top of an elaborate social class network depending on your name, where you are from, etc.

Any way you slice it Pakistan's leader whoever he is has a precarious economic situation.

Edited November 11, 2007 by Rue

[Higgly]

Pakistan is estimated to have 170 million of which its government claims 30 million are "middle class". Middle class in Pakistan is defined as whether a family earns $10,000.

A lot of money in Pakistan.

Is that 17.6% of the population sufficient enough for a liberal democracy? Not sure. All I know is it is tied up at the topend of the world's nations with Indonesia, Russia and Britain in financial inequality and the US still ranks the most unequal country in terms of financial distribution. The middle class certainly grew in Musharaf's time and because of a sudden surge after 9-11 but it now seems to be shrinking again. Lawyers of course are a very small group within that middle class, many of whom would be considered military and civil service.

Yes but who is listening to them?

Not sure if its large enough to make a political difference or prevent the kind of resentment that happens when there are polar extremes from rich to poor.

I don't agree at all. They represent a definable absolute. An escape from the whims of power. Something you can define and understand. A harbour. The law. A constitution. A real defined entity. You do not have to ask somebody what it means. It is written.

This middle class seems more concentrated in urban areas as JBG said for obvious reasons but what also appears to be happening is the urban areas are under strain as more and more poor people head to them.

Yes, but why are they heading there? They do not trust them?

Of course the above is on top of an elaborate social class network depending on your name, where you are from, etc.

This is exactly what is turning against Musharraf.

Any way you slice it Pakistan's leader whoever he is has a precarious economic situation.

Just like good old Steve! Democracy. Ain't it wonderful!

Edited November 11, 2007 by Higgly

[Rue]

Well I stand corrected on JBG's major point which is there are heavy concentrations of the middle class in certain neighbourhoods which was the point of my clarification. Whether Higgly that's a large enough middle class to prevent a revolution, well I leave to you and the rest to speculate on.

Some would argue it only takes a few to make a difference others argue from a sociological perspective you need I think its around a 30% middle class segment to make a difference. Obviously in this case, we would all agree the Middle Class in Pakistan grew larger and with it certain expectations.

I would imagine as well Higgly $10,000 to a Pakistani has different meaning then it does here.

All I can tell you is their legal profession which is a small percentage of its mdidle class may have disproportionate clout for their size in this when all is said and done for obvious reasons but call me a cynic I don't think the military is going anywhere.

[Higgly]

Well I stand corrected on JBG's major point which is there are heavy concentrations of the middle class in certain neighbourhoods which was the point of my clarification. Whether Higgly that's a large enough middle class to prevent a revolution, well I leave to you and the rest to speculate on.

Some would argue it only takes a few to make a difference others argue from a sociological perspective you need I think its around a 30% middle class segment to make a difference. Obviously in this case, we would all agree the Middle Class in Pakistan grew larger and with it certain expectations.

I would imagine as well Higgly $10,000 to a Pakistani has different meaning then it does here.

All I can tell you is their legal profession which is a small percentage of its mdidle class may have disproportionate clout for their size in this when all is said and done for obvious reasons but call me a cynic I don't think the military is going anywhere.

Those lawyers are all pretty middle-classy. You are right about the military, though, and what they do is a big part of this.

I see that Musharraf has now sequestered Bhutto for a second time, but I wonder why the western press is not focussing on other leaders - for example, Imran Khan (formerly the Gretzky of cricket) who is now a political leader and has been under house arrest since the whole thing started.

Props to Adrienne Arsenault of the CBC who managed to scoop an interview with Khan.

[Higgly]

Negroponte has now been to Pakistan and told Musharraf (publicly) to lift the state of emergency and to release all political prisoners taken in the past month.

Rubbing hands. It's getting interestinger and interestinger...

A little review is in order.

Opposition leaders like Imarn Khan (the Gretzky of cricket) are in lock, without a peep from the American press.

Musharraf has been receiving criticism for "not doing enough to fight terrorism".

Oppostion leader Sharif sent packing.

Bhutto getting big face time on CNN.

Ha ha.

Meet the new puppet. Same as the old puppet.. LOL

Edited November 17, 2007 by Higgly

[mikedavid00]

Bhutto getting big face time on CNN.

Ha ha.

Meet the new puppet. Same as the old puppet.. LOL

The US likes Bhutto of course.

But let them call an election and do this the right way.

And no, Musharaff is not liked because he soft to the US and not good to the political special interest in Pakistan, not becuase he's not tough enough on terror.

[Higgly]

Pakistan has just been suspended from the Commonwealth.

So Bush's friend in Pakistan is looking pretty isloated; his sabre-ratttling over WMD in Iran has now been shown to be the same old BS.

[M.Dancer]

Pakistan has just been suspended from the Commonwealth.

So Bush's friend in Pakistan is looking pretty isloated; his sabre-ratttling over WMD in Iran has now been shown to be the same old BS.

His sabre rattling made Iran open up a tad bit more. Do you have any particular reason to be opposed to transparency regarding Iran's nuclear programmes given they have a history of lying and deceiving?