US/Russia/ China/Iran

[Higgly]

And that's when these peanut gallery discussions about who will challenge the big bad "West" degenerate into ifs, maybes, and buts....all while America and NATO have actually done these things.

I am sure the Chinese could eventually copy anything that has already been done by others many times.

Today Taiwan...tomorrow..the WORLD!

Well OK. Here's the thing. There is no "Big Bad" anything. There is just Realpolitik. They can copy anything? You can simply counter their offensive by rubbing your fingers across one another and shouting "Shame, shame"? No wait. I've a better idea! You can send in a battalion of copyright lawyers

"Firstly" is a phrase I used to try to break first year students of. Second, the US, to name one example, has a standing ability to commandeer airlines any damned time they want in an emergency, and I strongly suspect canada does too. They don't need to be "at death's door" any more than China does, although like China, it doesn't make economic sense to do it on a weekly basis.

You're an English grammar teacher! I knew it!

Yes it is, which is why we have nuclear deterrence...something you lot spent the last two decades trying to get rid of. The cost to Chinese value targets through deflection and second strike capability would be far more than the cost to the US, so that's not something China is about to try.

What in God's name are you talking about?

Oh, so the lift capacity you told us a moment ago that we all laughed at doesn't matter anymore?

So you seem to be confused. A minute ago you were educating us about proxy wars and here you are back at flying Chinese soldiers again.

The chances that planes full of chinese soldiers flying into Africa would be attacked are quite good, actually. There would almost certainly be military transport planes with substantial air defence flying US soldiers in the other end of Africa at the same time anyway. Whatever happened to the proxy wars you spoke of? And who do you think would win a proxy war in Africa? I recommend to you the outcomes of various proxy wars in Africa over the last four decades.

Your assumption is that US soldiers would be brought in as a counter-offensive to Chinese soldiers. Direct superpower conflict is a no-no in modern warfare. That is what proxy wars are all about. If the Chinese were to bring in PLA soldiers, I'd be damned surprised to find a US marine anywhere near. And if I did, I'd be looking for a bomb shelter.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Higgly

[bush_cheney2004]

China had difficulty just getting 125 "peacekeeping" troops deployed to Haiti. Not ready to run with the Big Dogs yet.

[bush_cheney2004]

Well OK. Here's the thing. There is no "Big Bad" anything. There is just Realpolitik. They can copy anything? You can simply counter their offensive by rubbing your fingers across one another and shouting "Shame, shame"? No wait. I've a better idea! You can send in a battalion of copyright lawyers

This, from the member who has insisted on discussing such matters in terms of a monolithic and evil "West"....tsk...tsk.

[Higgly]

This, from the member who has insisted on discussing such matters in terms of a monolithic and evil "West"....tsk...tsk.

[Higgly]

China had difficulty just getting 125 "peacekeeping" troops deployed to Haiti. Not ready to run with the Big Dogs yet.

Jeez. I'm surprised. There was so much at stake for them in Haiti.

[bush_cheney2004]

Jeez. I'm surprised. There was so much at stake for them in Haiti.

Yea...unlike Canada...which did it quite easily. LOL!

[Higgly]

Yea...unlike Canada...which did it quite easily. LOL!

Entirely different political process and context, n'est-ce pas? Do you seriously believe that the Chinese felt they had any interest at stake in Haiti? Even more to the point. Do you think that, given the US-Cuba dialectic, and the US-Dominican Republic dialectic ("Everything good in America..." - research the importance of this song on the US consciousness), that the Chinese would be dumb enough to put soldiers in the Caribbean? The equivalent would be US soldiers in Taiwan.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Higgly

[ScottSA]

You're an English grammar teacher! I knew it!

Nope. Not even close. Just not an amateurish writer.

Your assumption is that US soldiers would be brought in as a counter-offensive to Chinese soldiers. Direct superpower conflict is a no-no in modern warfare. That is what proxy wars are all about. If the Chinese were to bring in PLA soldiers, I'd be damned surprised to find a US marine anywhere near. And if I did, I'd be looking for a bomb shelter.

My assumption is that Chinese soldiers are not going to be flying to Africa in commandeered jetliners. If they do, you'll have long ago crawled under your bed, becayuse WW III (or IV, depending on your viewpoint) will be in full swing.

Thucydides was the first, but by no means the last, to recognize that peoples (and nations) fight for survival, and that the best way to achieve survival is to achieve hegemony. The US has hegemony. Thucydides also recognized that when challenged for hegemony, a hegemon is at its most dangerous. Despite the current hype surrounding China, it's decades away from an ability to challenge the US in extraterritorial wars of any kind, and if it tried it would be stopped in its tracks. China may be able to stack more soldiers in a paddy field than the US, but that is meaningless.

[bush_cheney2004]

Entirely different political process and context, n'est-ce pas? Do you seriously believe that the Chinese felt they had any interest at stake in Haiti?

Actually, the political process was much the same.....see United Nations.

China's interest was in demonstrating Big Dog capability. Over the years, how often do we hear "SEND IN THE CHINESE PEACEKEEPERS!!"

Edited October 27, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[Higgly]

Nope. Not even close. Just not an amateurish writer.

My assumption is that Chinese soldiers are not going to be flying to Africa in commandeered jetliners. If they do, you'll have long ago crawled under your bed, becayuse WW III (or IV, depending on your viewpoint) will be in full swing.

Thucydides was the first, but by no means the last, to recognize that peoples (and nations) fight for survival, and that the best way to achieve survival is to achieve hegemony. The US has hegemony. Thucydides also recognized that when challenged for hegemony, a hegemon is at its most dangerous. Despite the current hype surrounding China, it's decades away from an ability to challenge the US in extraterritorial wars of any kind, and if it tried it would be stopped in its tracks. China may be able to stack more soldiers in a paddy field than the US, but that is meaningless.

Thucydides aside, the Chinese are in Africa for what reason? For the good of their hearts?

Your argument is even more to my point. Do you really think that the US, or anybody else, will challenge the Chinese on their rice bowl? The US left Africa on the table for charity organisations. This was the chink in their armour. They were so pre-occupied with the middle east, this came at them under the radar and the opportunity has passed them by. John Irving wrote about passing by open windows. This was a big one.

[ScottSA]

Thucydides aside, the Chinese are in Africa for what reason? For the good of their hearts?

Your argument is even more to my point. Do you really think that the US, or anybody else, will challenge the Chinese on their rice bowl? The US left Africa on the table for charity organisations. This was the chink in their armour. They were so pre-occupied with the middle east, this came at them under the radar and the opportunity has passed them by. John Irving wrote about passing by open windows. This was a big one.

This is such a profoundly silly analysis that I won't even address it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Do you think that, given the US-Cuba dialectic, and the US-Dominican Republic dialectic ("Everything good in America..." - research the importance of this song on the US consciousness), that the Chinese would be dumb enough to put soldiers in the Caribbean? The equivalent would be US soldiers in Taiwan.

"US soldiers", airmen, and sailors have already been in Taiwan for military exercises...better add a "Taiwan dialectic".

[ScottSA]

"US soldiers", airmen, and sailors have already been in Taiwan for military exercises...better add a "Taiwan dialectic".

Better add a Vietnam dialectic too, what with all the palefaces running around that neck of the woods not too long ago. Course if we go back a few years past that, we can talk about paleface troops in downtown Peking as well.

[DogOnPorch]

So if you were to, let's say, reconfigure a 747, could you get a tank on board? Of course supposing Chinese security would let it rumble through the departure lounge... In any case, do you really think the Chinese, with the extraordinary loot they have in their treasury right now, would have any problem assembling that sort of capability?

You couldn't carry a M-1A sized tank on a 747...it'd fall through the floor...literally. You need beasties like these two...and China doesn't gotz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvynLgMEn8I

...and the you'd need quite a few of them to move an armored division, for example.

Red China tends to steal/copy things rather than develop their own technology. So perhaps it is harder to develop heavy lift capability than it looks.

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It doesn't matter if a cat is black or white, so long as it catches mice.

---Deng Xiaoping

[Higgly]

This is such a profoundly silly analysis that I won't even address it.

De profundis...

"US soldiers", airmen, and sailors have already been in Taiwan for military exercises...better add a "Taiwan dialectic".

Ha ha. Good one.

Course if we go back a few years past that, we can talk about paleface troops in downtown Peking as well.

Oh you mean the Opium wars? The burning of the Imperial library? Hong Kong? The Green gang? The Soongs? Cash My Check? So you see my point?

[Higgly]

Cash My Check might be too subtle. Read about this bastard here. Same price as a good pizza. Do not judge China until you have read this book.

Seagrave has a good book on the Marcos era in the Philippines as well and well worth reading. You want to know what kind of guy McArthur was? This is a piece of the puzzle, but by no means the entire story. I'd like to see a book of this quality on Gringo Honassan and Cory Aquino too.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Higgly

[ScottSA]

I think, Higgles, that you owe it to yourself to do quite a bit of reading, and perhaps even take a trip or two, before setting out to pontificate of international relations.

[Higgly]

I think, Higgles, that you owe it to yourself to do quite a bit of reading, and perhaps even take a trip or two, before setting out to pontificate of international relations.

Ha ha. Good one. Quick. Without using Google. Describe the road in from Beijing Airport to the Forbidden City. What is the most prominent feature? What is the configuration of the Beijing arrivals/departure lounges?