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Ronnie Wood wrote: Your point might have a bit more credibility if there were similar numbers of rich and poor people. However, owing to the fact that 1% of our population holds 50% of the wealth in this country, your argument seems slightly flawed. Just curious about what you think.... Should that 1% get 50 percent of the services ?.... Do you think that the 1% contributes even wildly close to 50% of the tax revenues... I think not... It is the lower and middle income earners that pay the lions share of the taxes in this country... simply because there are just so many of them.

RonnieWood,Apr 29 2005, 03:26 AM A two-tiered system is "the beginning of the end" for a universal system. When wealthier people have a choice to get faster treatment, they can pay, and get it more quickly with a two-tiered system.... Then the line-ups for the public system will be shorter, and it will just be those poor people who don't count quite as much... so they don't have to fund the public system with quite the urgency.... We don't have enough funding for our system, which, by the way is cheaper per capita than the US system, and it doesn't leave out 40 million people like the US system... do you know why.... There's no money left for health care after Paul Martin pays a few billion of the tax surplus to the deficit, and then lowers the federal tax revenue to get our corporate tax rates even a few more points below the US corporate tax rates. He's got his priorities... Corporate Canada. (and clinging on for dear life right now)

LadyLuck wrote: Raise taxes ??? Hello... anybody home.... Layton demanded that they skip an additional tax cut for the larger corporations who already pay less tax than corporations in the USA pay..... Skipping a is not the same as INCREASING taxes...

LadyLuck wrote: Do you know how we got medicaire ??? Do you know how we got old age pensions ???? I take it you think it was wrong of the NDP to pressure Liberal minority governments into implementing these opressive programs that hurt business.

I agree with you on the first part, that it's not mutually exclusive. I understand that a climate that is attractive to business will create jobs. However, as with almost everyting, you have to draw some lines. There are limits to how much sacrifice the public has to make to support business. Our current federal government, or Paul Martin more specifically, is a little too far to the right of the line. The current business climate in Canada is not too bad. Businesses have lower taxes than in the USA, and are obviously doing OK here. The federal government has had record surpluses for 10 years now. However, none of these 10s of billions of dollars of surplus get redirected to the needs of the citizens of Canada.... only to Corporate Canada. If Martin governed the way he made election promises (or throne speeches), I'd say he would be very good for Canadians.... but we all know about Liberal promises.... Our health care system is faultering, blah blah... you Know the drill, and yet Martin takes from these systems to afford further tax breaks for industry, but none for citizens... And Harper... he's so far to the right, I'd need a telescope to find him.... and if he were elected, I'd lend you the telescope to help you find what he'd leave of our social programs.... (like health care)

Pateris,Apr 27 2005, 05:52 PM wrote: The price has been "free market value" for a few years now. When the Province owned the Hydro electric generation, its low price of 0.5 cents per kilowatt hour helped offset the more expensive nuclear power.... Now we don't have the advantage that once we did have... thanks to the Harris Conservatives. This is true. The government has hidden this fact very well. Did you know that it was "against the law" in Ontario to charge the public for construction of a nuclear power plant until it started generating electricity. This changed weeks before Bob Ray got into power in Ontario. So hydro was not allowed to charge us for their construction until they were done.... building up billion dollar deficits. I agree with you... at least until they can find alternate sources of power. You'll find that they will not be able to shut them down by 2007 because they can't replace them... Shutting them down is a big Liberal Lie. However, they should look for sources that don't pollute so much.

August1991 wrote: Maybe most Americans have disposable income to pay for health care.... 40 Americans don't have any though.... Medical emergencies are the #1 cause of bankrupcy in the USA. How can the government favour corporations. Just look at what Paul Martin has accomplished over the past 10 years. He has consistantly taken money away from health care, education, and our other vital social services to decrease tax rates for corporations.... to well below the US levels. With tens of billions of dollars of federal surplus every year, he still reduces money for health care, etc.. He hasn't, however, done anything to reduce personal income taxes. So if he takes services away from citizens to give more money back to corporate Canada, it would seem that his policies favour corporations over citizens.... it's pretty simple.

Maybe its because they put so much faith in the macho SUV lineups that their sales are down, and the Japanese sales are up 12%....

Hugo said: Maybe you are right. Maybe they should decrease them to the pay levels they get in Indonesia, and we'd have massive employment... in sweat shops... Hugo, and are all of them still unemployed ???

Cybercoma, I don't see it that way. Autoworkers in Canada are not in too bad a shape. GM has just announced a Billion dollar investment in Ontario. This can be attributed to the fact that quality of work in Ontario plants is much higher than in their US counterparts (well documented fact), the fact that corporate taxes in Ontario are lower than in any bordering US state (another well established fact), and that they don't have to pay for expensive medical care in Ontario, as they do in the US. What's more, they have good jobs that pay them well enough to lead good lives. This is an incentive for them to meet quotas, and do quality work, because they value their good jobs.

CyberComa wrote: What a great suggestion. However, $18/hr might be a bit high. If it were raised to $9 or 10/hr, you might just see the number of people on government assistance dwindlle. And most people who make minimum wage don't have Swiss or Cayman bank accounts that they stow away their cash in.... It usually stays in their local economy, which is good for the neighbourhood they live in. Wouldn't an increase in minimum wage be nice... an incentive to get off welfare or enemployment. The NDP promised it in the last election. So did the Liberals... but the Liberals got in, and we all know how good their word is..;.

I think that electricity was government business, providing the infrastructure that helps citizens and businesses alike. Also, I don't begrudge a janitor making $18/hour. In fact, that's not, in my opinion, a super-high wage... $36,000 per year. You couldn't buy a very big house with that wage. You wouldn't be able to take your kids to Disneyland with those wages. So why do you begrudge the poor guy ??? Do you think that because the guy may not have gone to University to be a Lawyer, he should be stuck with WalMart wages.... I'd amost think you had a chip on your shoulder, begrudging a guy who, if he had a couple of children, would be living close to what our government calls the "poverty line".

So if West Nile Virus or Herpes is springing up in your neighborhood, should we support it's growth ???

Just thought you'd like to know.... that line "A government for the people, by the people..." That's the United States of America, not Cuba...

Cybercoma wrote: The government is there to serve and protect the public. I think that I should quote Ontario Conservative Premier Pliney Whitney who said: You have changed the discussion of Hydro to health care.... A standard technique of both the Conservatives and Liberals. I take this as your conceding to defeat in the argument about publicly owned electricity. From your post, I gather you would rather pay much more to private companies than pay less to a government run electricity system. However, this privatization is bankrupting many other Ontario businesses... Is that part of your Conservative plan.

Conservative1 says: I notice from this that you have half a brain. In the United States, corporate tax is higher than in Canada, but personal tax is much higher in Canada than the USA. Your argument seems to indicate that you think the government should favour corporations over constituents. I think that the government should be "for the people".

Cybercoma... We owned the lemonade stand. We should be able to drink the lemonade at the the price it cost to make it. Since you're into analogies, lets try this one. You built a lemonade stand (with the lemonade making equipment) for $100. It cost 5 cents to make a cup of lemonade. If you sold it to the neighbour for $30 and he would sell you the lemonade for 50 cents a cup, would you go for this. Basically, that's what our last Tory provincial government did. Do you know why they "fire sold" our facilities. To fix their books so the public wouldn't see the HUGE deficit they created by their insane tax reduction....

If you look at the Independent Market Operator's website, www.THEIMO.COM, you'll get to see the prices that the independent generators are getting paid during the summer. Whether our bills are being capped or not, these guys are getting paid the prices on that web site..... The provincial government refused to answer where the difference come from when I and several colleagues formally requested the information.... But they say that the debt is getting bigger, even though our "debt reduction" charge on our hydro bills is supposed to cover that debt.... Interesting isn't it....

You are making some assumptions Bro.... I think the corruption was in the previous government.... I'll make no apologies for the Liberals, because I don't like them, almost as much as I don't like the Conservatives (They're both right wing...) However, I think what Layton said expresses the spirit we would hope to see from all of our parties.... a desire to help the majority of Canadians instead of just Corporate Canada.

No, I'm not saying your mean... just a bit naive.... Another good example of how naive you are. Most politicians, at least in the two popular parties, go into politics for underhanded reasons...

You really are a piece of work Conservative1. Charging what it costs ??? I know a great deal about electricity generation in Ontario. How about hydro-electric facilities, you know the kind where water is used at a dam to make electricity.... It costs about 0.5 cents per kilowatt hour to produce at these facilities. (This is a well established fact.) And companies who were given these facilities for a fraction of their worth by their Tory golfing partners can charge us 16 cents per kilowatt hour in the summer under peak load... but it still only costs them 0.5 cents to make. I don't know how much you know about economics, but we used to pay 4.5 cents per kilowatt hour for this electricity. The 4 cents wasn't profit, but it came went towards offsetting the cost of the more expensive nuclear energy, keeping the prices down. One particular example of how this hurt Ontarians was the sale of the 3 Massasagi generating stations near Thunder Bay, Ontario for $340 Million to Brascon. Brascon paid this cost out of 6 months profit. The net result of this particular privatization was that the Ontario purse saw an additional $340 Million once... And Ontario taxpayer get to pay about $600 Million more per year for the electricity generated from this station.... every year... so in 2 years, we'll have paid over a Billion dollars more for electricity from these Hydro stations alone. But hurray, hurrah, we don't have to pay that 0.5 cents per kilowatt hour any more in our taxes, when we can pay up to 16 cents per Kilowatt-Hour to Brascon (a division of Great Lakes Energy). Take your Conservative calculator out of your pocket and calculate how this benefits the Ontario public... I bet a smart conservative like yourself would rather pay 16 cents to a private corporation than 5 cents to the evil tax-grabbing government...

And what does this have to do with Left vs. Right ?? You guys should pat each others backs in the right forums.

That's a neat idea. Wealthy people will have a CHOICE, and the rest of Ontario can wait in line..... A line that will grow longer, and longer.... Publicly funded private medical services, like the P3 hospitals (where our tax dollars go to pay for private service) will just eat our tax dollars. Private businesses exist to make a profit. So if the services cost a similar amount, and you add a large profit for the service provider, it will cost more. More tax dollars from the coffers means less tax dollars left for our public systems. Ontario should not entertain any private medical care - fix and fund a good universal health-care system that works well for both the wealthy and the poor. The Conservatives have told us for years that privatizing electricity would result in cheaper electricity, because it private providers would be more efficient. Well, it didn't work out that way here in Ontario. I can only conclude that the Conservative that promoted privatization of electricity were either really stupid, or that they had a mean-spirited agenda... Since you promote similar privatization, which category do you fit into .????

What a great idea (sarcasm). Rich people can afford to have a CHOICE to "jump the line" of the private system and get what they need when they want it. Then the pressure is off the public system to provide the same level of service, (such as MRIs), so people don't have to pay as much tax. And the majority of Canadians, middle and lower income ones can either wait or do without.... in a perfect Conservative world. It would seem to me that the government should try to benefit the majority of its constituents, rather than the just the smaller wealth portion of them. I think that's what Jack Layton is trying to accomplish.

For years, the Conservative have cried about the inefficiencies of government run operations such as Hydro... They have told us for years that private sector will be way more efficient. Well, we have privatized Hydro electric facilities in Ontario. And these efficient, private electricity generators get to charge "fair market value". Have you noticed how much higher our electricity bill have been since privatization. Apparently, our electricity price is going to double again during the year. Hurrah for privatization ... if you're a stockholder. What the right-wing proponents of privatization never seem to mention is that private companies operate solely for profit, and that while they may be able to operate more efficiently than a public system, by the time they add their profit, the privately run system is always more expensive than the public counterpart.... every single time....